Can anybody answer these simple questions ??
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Salaam OPF,
I am not going to respond to all of your post. There is lots of back and forth and people can read both points of views. I want to address some interesting statements
3- Statements that you cannot prove that they are true nor false. Those are not baseless hadeeth until you can prove them false. Those are the ones that God asks you to verify or try to verify and God does not ask you to reject it but to be careful with it as in 1736.
Item 3 centers on the fallacious notion that something is true until proven false. Incorrect. False until proven truth, sorry. In case 3, they are indeed baseless.
Your logic is lacking. The majority of things in the world fall in number three. The best that you can do is withold judgement until further proof. Rejection outright is wrong. One can easily ask you this question
Prove that God is existant? Yes you will go about all the proofs that you have and the person will come back and say. Those are no proofs because I am not observing God. Many times, you accept things not because of proofs, but because of trust and safety in them. This all falls under item number three.
As for the congregation prayer. The Aya says If called to Salat on the day of Jumaa, then leave the selling and move for the remembrance of Allah. What is being called for? and how did they remember Allah? if you believe that they implemented this rule?
As for the Muhammad business. There are two places that you have to remember
Muhammadun rasoolullah= Muhammad is the messenger of Allah.
Wama muhammadun illa rasoolun qad khlat min qablihi arrusulu, afain mata aw qutila inqalbtum ala AAqabikum= And Muhammad is but a messenger, the messengers left before him. So, if he died or was killed, you turn away on the back of your feet.When you put those two together, then you will get that he was the only messenger of that time and that the people who were addressed knew who their messenger was.
If the Qur'an said the above, then I will witness. Actually, the witnessing is mentioned in many places. You omitted them all and only remembered the hypocrites. You will do well by studying the term. Here is one "Wauktubna maa alshahideena= and write us amongst the witnesses." It is the witnesses to the truth.
As for the first day of the establishing of the Masjid, it was with that messenger 1400 years ago and it was established on good basis as per the Qur'an. As for you guys, you believe that it was established on weak basis so as to disappear until your smart brains came to make things up.
This is my last post on this. Take care and have a great day.
Hussein
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496
So in other words, you have no knowledge? 496 has very little to do with the concept of playing devil's advocate.
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Salaam OPF,
I am not going to respond to all of your post. There is lots of back and forth and people can read both points of views. I want to address some interesting statements
Your logic is lacking. The majority of things in the world fall in number three. The best that you can do is withold judgement until further proof. Rejection outright is wrong. One can easily ask you this question
Prove that God is existant? Yes you will go about all the proofs that you have and the person will come back and say. Those are no proofs because I am not observing God. Many times, you accept things not because of proofs, but because of trust and safety in them. This all falls under item number three.
As for the congregation prayer. The Aya says If called to Salat on the day of Jumaa, then leave the selling and move for the remembrance of Allah. What is being called for? and how did they remember Allah? if you believe that they implemented this rule?
As for the Muhammad business. There are two places that you have to remember
Muhammadun rasoolullah= Muhammad is the messenger of Allah.
Wama muhammadun illa rasoolun qad khlat min qablihi arrusulu, afain mata aw qutila inqalbtum ala AAqabikum= And Muhammad is but a messenger, the messengers left before him. So, if he died or was killed, you turn away on the back of your feet.When you put those two together, then you will get that he was the only messenger of that time and that the people who were addressed knew who their messenger was.
If the Qur'an said the above, then I will witness. Actually, the witnessing is mentioned in many places. You omitted them all and only remembered the hypocrites. You will do well by studying the term. Here is one "Wauktubna maa alshahideena= and write us amongst the witnesses." It is the witnesses to the truth.
As for the first day of the establishing of the Masjid, it was with that messenger 1400 years ago and it was established on good basis as per the Qur'an. As for you guys, you believe that it was established on weak basis so as to disappear until your smart brains came to make things up.
This is my last post on this. Take care and have a great day.
Hussein
So what if it has been going back and forth? If you remember, this argument/debate has been running for 2-3 threads and has occupied along the order of 5-10 large pages. Why stop now? Are you not confident about your deen? It does not take very much time to make a reply.
Your logic is lacking. The majority of things in the world fall in number three. The best that you can do is withold judgement until further proof. Rejection outright is wrong. One can easily ask you this question
There is no rejection outright. The process is clear in the Quran - ascertain the truth. If you cannot ascertain the truth, who is worse than he who lies against Allah?
Prove that God is existant? Yes you will go about all the proofs that you have and the person will come back and say. Those are no proofs because I am not observing God.
That is the person's problem, not mine. If they wish to seal off themselves, then fine for them. Judging by the number of Muslims drawn in by the science of the Quran, I will say that an open-minded person will concede very fast.
Many times, you accept things not because of proofs, but because of trust and safety in them. This all falls under item number three.
Many times I have gone wrong due to precisely this. Negative until proven positive.
As for the congregation prayer. The Aya says If called to Salat on the day of Jumaa, then leave the selling and move for the remembrance of Allah. What is being called for? and how did they remember Allah? if you believe that they implemented this rule?
I cannot comment on that. The reason being, and you know this, or know it know, that I know mostly negative information in this regard - i.e. the hadeeth are not to be followed. There have already been explanations of that on these forums regardless of my personal experience.
Muhammadun rasoolullah= Muhammad is the messenger of Allah.
Wama muhammadun illa rasoolun qad khlat min qablihi arrusulu, afain mata aw qutila inqalbtum ala AAqabikum= And Muhammad is but a messenger, the messengers left before him. So, if he died or was killed, you turn away on the back of your feet.Thank you. So this answers our brother's question as to where we will know the name of Muhammad in the Quran. If you also remember, you were one of those asking. A little reverse psychology never hurt anyone.
If the Qur'an said the above, then I will witness. Actually, the witnessing is mentioned in many places. You omitted them all and only remembered the hypocrites. You will do well by studying the term. Here is one "Wauktubna maa alshahideena= and write us amongst the witnesses." It is the witnesses to the truth.
Please examine the specific contexts. The quoted aya had direct reference to the shahadah, whereas your various quoted aya do not. I specifically checked for this, and I knew you would bring this up in any case. As for the witnesses to the truth, the best you can do in terms of that is say "I witness that there is a book in front of me which I believe to be from Allah which thus states that Allah bears witness that there is no god but Allah and Muhammad is his messenger". Please remember the distinction in logic. Saying the shahadah is not the same as bearing witness to this obvious truth.
As for the first day of the establishing of the Masjid, it was with that messenger 1400 years ago and it was established on good basis as per the Qur'an. As for you guys, you believe that it was established on weak basis so as to disappear until your smart brains came to make things up.
So "first day" means "first day" but "first day" means 1400 years ago. I see. As for the latter, I believe Abraham practiced the deen in full. Is it not funny how a Sunni will use the appeal to longevity fallacy when the Jew or Christian is qualified by millenia more than him to use it...
Please remember that as far as I see, there was never a true Sunni caliphate either. All of them I have seen past the 4 "rightly guided caliphs" had some form of problem or other and the concept of the harem, oh dear.
So, is this debate/argument finished?
peace
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Salam Hussein,
Ade cool,
The Aya starts with the single you and then moves to plural you when talking about parents. It was not talking to the prophet alone except at it's beginning. Your conclusion is then too stretched.
The aya under discussion is
1723 Thy Lord hath decreed, that ye worship none save Him, and (that ye show) kindness to parents. If one of them or both of them to attain old age with thee, say not "Fie" unto them nor repulse them, but speak unto them a gracious word.
My post can be read here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=15112.msg142977#msg142977Since my arabic knowledge is very limited, can somebody confirm whether Hussein is telling the truth or not? Thanks.
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Salam Hussein,
The aya under discussion is
1723 Thy Lord hath decreed, that ye worship none save Him, and (that ye show) kindness to parents. If one of them or both of them to attain old age with thee, say not "Fie" unto them nor repulse them, but speak unto them a gracious word.
My post can be read here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=15112.msg142977#msg142977Since my arabic knowledge is very limited, can somebody confirm whether Hussein is telling the truth or not? Thanks.
The actual aya is as follows
1723
To misinterpret the Quranic Ayas is characteristic of Quranists by default.
What do you want to get out of itSo relax.
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1723 Thy Lord hath decreed, that ye worship none save Him, and (that ye show) kindness to parents. If one of them or both of them to attain old age with thee, say not "Fie" unto them nor repulse them, but speak unto them a gracious word.
From Hussein
Ade cool,
The Aya starts with the single you and then moves to plural you when talking about parents. It was not talking to the prophet alone except at it's beginning. Your conclusion is then too stretched.
From ade_cool
Since my arabic knowledge is very limited, can somebody confirm whether Hussein is telling the truth or not? Thanks.He is telling the opposite of the truth The verse starts with a plural verb for "that ye worship none save Him", then shifts to the singular.
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The actual aya is as follows
1723
Hussain is 100% correct.
To misinterpret the Quranic Ayas is characteristic of Quranists by default.
So relax.Either you don't understand what Hussein says, or you don't understand Arabic...don't unerstand eitherway and always
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Either you don't understand what Hussein says, or you don't understand Arabic...don't unerstand eitherway and always
Yes madam agree I really did not understand that he is talking about verbs.
I admit my mistake.I am not Quranist
So I edited my words.
As far as arabic is concerned I again admit my weakness. I do not know it.Had I known it I would have said" Muarraf bilaam" nouns are "common nouns" -
Salam Samia,
He is telling the opposite of the truth The verse starts with a plural verb for "that ye worship none save Him", then shifts to the singular.
Thanks for the clarification. It means my understanding of the verse is grammatically acceptable. Am I right sis?
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The actual aya is as follows
1723
To misinterpret the Quranic Ayas is characteristic of Quranists by default.If my understanding is not correct according to you, then please just tell what the correct one according to you. If yours is better than mine, I will accept yours. OK bro?
What do you want to get out of it
Have you read my post?
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Salam Samia,
Thanks for the clarification. It means my understanding of the verse is grammatically acceptable. Am I right sis?
Yes you're right. If I remember, there was a thread where it was discussed that God does not address an individual except prophets or by name. No general address is made to the singular "you". But this is really a very interesting notice from your part. Yet a further proof from the qur'aan exposing a deeply rooted very common false story. Well done.
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If my understanding is not correct according to you, then please just tell what the correct one according to you. If yours is better than mine, I will accept yours. OK bro?
Have you read my post?You want to say that only the Holy Prophet was ordered by Allah to behave well to his parents not other muslims?
It means this order is not for other muslims because here "singular present pronouns " are used (as per your impression).
Am I right to understand you ? -
You want to say that only the Holy Prophet was ordered by Allah to behave well to his parents not other muslims?
It means this order is not for other muslims because here "singular present pronouns " are used (as per your impression).
Am I right to understand you ?See, you haven't read my post ???
That is not my point. My point is the history of the prophet as has been taught to us (that the prophet's father died before he was born, that his mother passed away when he was six) is completely wrong. Why? Because the prophet still had both father and mother when he received the revelations.
Even if we assume the history that the prophet received revelations when he was forty is true, then still according to the verse at the age of forty the prophet still had both father and mother (unlike what have been taught to us). Got it?
If you disagree with my understanding of the verse (that the prophet still had both father and mother when he received revelations), then tell your understanding so that we can discuss. If yours is better than mine, I will accept yours. Thanks.
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Even if we assume the history that the prophet received revelations when he was forty is true, then still according to the verse at the age of forty the prophet still had both father and mother (unlike what have been taught to us). Got it?
Please have a look at this verse 4615.
(Notice that it covers the same subject as 1723) -
You want to say that only the Holy Prophet was ordered by Allah to behave well to his parents not other muslims?
It means this order is not for other muslims because here "singular present pronouns " are used (as per your impression).
Am I right to understand you ?Peace Leo
The Messenger was asked to follow what was revealed to him and we are to follow the Messenger. By following the Messenger we will be following the revelation from God. So it is not only him who has to treat his parents well.
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Aya4615 clearly illustrates the meaning of 1723 that this address is to all human beings.
Have you pondered upon the verses 2170, 4135, 923-24, 1187, 185, etc.and 4324 somehow displaying mischieviousness. -
Peace Leo
The Messenger was asked to follow what was revealed to him and we are to follow the Messenger. By following the Messenger we will be following the revelation from God. So it is not only him who has to treat his parents well.
Thank you very much .So you agree we have to "Follow the Messenger"
bravo bravo bravo sun
Agreed this is the Quranic message that we have to follow the "Prophet PBUH.