Can anybody answer these simple questions ??
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Salaam OPF,
It has been 1400 years and nothing comes from your camp. How much more time to wait? As for the different explanations from the Qur'an, then I do have a question How many different versions do you expect the prophet to have prayed? Will you take his example or prefer to get lost in search of the Ayat of the Qur'an.
I will not accuse a sincere person of spreading falsehood. As for those who reveal dishonesty as in playing linguistic manipulations of the Qur'an, then yes. However, their business is with God not with me. Also, I do not claim that there is no solution from the Qur'an. If the authentic hadeeth explains the Qur'an then the solution is in the Qur'an, explained through authentic hadeeths. Is there evidence that depending on linguistics alone will not lead to the best understanding? Yes, when people do not know how to pray or perform hajj or Zakat. You may say, but we have several options that we are contemplating. The answer is still no. Why? because if the Qur'an is clear to you guys, then one would expect a consensus on those essential simple matters, but there is no consensus in sight, why?
1- Either that the Qur'an needs other tools to clarify it.
2- The Qur'an not as detailed as you think.
3- Your whole movement is based on manipulations and bias, and when the people's bias is at work without restraint, then there is no hope of consensus.
4- None of you has the minimum needed to understand the Qur'an?Ali and Abu Bakr did not fight. However, no one is perfect and if they erred after the messenger, then that does not make you or anyone here a better person. A little self introspection is needed. Many messengers made mistakes, so why would one expect more from their followers.
God did not mention Bukhari, but he said in 44 places to obey the messenger. This means that wherever you arrive at a conclusion that the messenger ordered something, whether in the Qur'an or not, Bukhari or not, then you obey it.
God sent the Taurah and sent messengers one after another to rule the Israelites by the rules of the Taurat and to explain it to the people over hundreds of years. The writings of those other messengers and orders were not Taurah, but they ruled by the taurat, and they explained it to the people. Those writings are part of the old testament itself.
So, the people of the Taurah obeyed the messengers in their lives and they still do after their death through readings the different writings and rulings of all the hebrew messengers up to Jesus.
Take care and have a great day.
Hussein
Salam,
I do not know 1400 years of history so I cannot comment. Secondly, presumably the correct method -. I think one important aya on this matter, in any case, is 1959, applicable to all. Yes, I'll take his example, so long as his example does not ridicule him and Islam.
I will not accuse a sincere person of spreading falsehood. As for those who reveal dishonesty as in playing linguistic manipulations of the Qur'an, then yes. However, their business is with God not with me. Also, I do not claim that there is no solution from the Qur'an. If the authentic hadeeth explains the Qur'an then the solution is in the Qur'an, explained through authentic hadeeths.
Please do not dodge the argument, you are not Agent Smith. This is on a tangent from the original topic - who is "sincere"? As for hadeeth, you know very well that I specifically meant the Quran by itself.
Is there evidence that depending on linguistics alone will not lead to the best understanding? Yes, when people do not know how to pray or perform hajj or Zakat. You may say, but we have several options that we are contemplating. The answer is still no. Why? because if the Qur'an is clear to you guys, then one would expect a consensus on those essential simple matters, but there is no consensus in sight, why?
You are correct, which is why we throw logic, and cross-referencing into the mix, and all the other tools of study, physical or conceptual. Why is there no consensus? Clearly because some people simply cannot and will not let go of the traditional ritual. As far as I see, there is person/school of thought X saying it is spiritual and person/school of thought Y saying it is ritual.
1- Either that the Qur'an needs other tools to clarify it.
2- The Qur'an not as detailed as you think.
3- Your whole movement is based on manipulations and bias, and when the people's bias is at work without restraint, then there is no hope of consensus.
4- None of you has the minimum needed to understand the Qur'an?1 - Of course it does. As long as it isn't stamped into the brains of every single person in the world, and as long as it is written in Arabic, or any language, or even written or transmitted linguistically, it will always need other tools. The item of dispute, of course, is whether the ahadeeth are a valid tool.
2 - No. Unless you have become kaffir, rejecting that the Quran is detailed? The Quran is clearly detailed in its message, all else is left for people to decide for themselves and extrapolate from the book - the exact same technique used in the Sunni world sans hadeeth, if you remember.
3 - I will argue that every movement is based on manipulations and bias. If it isn't stretching Quran, it is stretching a hadeeth round to the point it becomes a wormhole. Seen any flying horses, by the way?
4 - Lack of manpower, the main issue. I will say you are correct. However, clearly everyone here has the tools to see a disproportionate number of hadeeth simply cannot be in line with the Quran, and hence that drags down the entire body.
Ali and Abu Bakr did not fight. However, no one is perfect and if they erred after the messenger, then that does not make you or anyone here a better person. A little self introspection is needed. Many messengers made mistakes, so why would one expect more from their followers.
Why the Sunni/Shia rift then? Can you explain? The battles of Jamal and Siffin? If these companions themselves had weaknesses and a lack of consensus, how does that preserve the stability of the Quranic message (including the "sunnah" which you previously said was transmitted through these people? Do you believe Aisha and Ali (strangely enough, less talkative than the ever prolific Abu Hurairah) would be unbiased in their transmissions? Especially regarding such events? One would be inclined to believe that the people the Almighty depended on for transmission of Islam had love and mercy between themselves regardless of the messenger - 863-64.
God did not mention Bukhari, but he said in 44 places to obey the messenger. This means that wherever you arrive at a conclusion that the messenger ordered something, whether in the Qur'an or not, Bukhari or not, then you obey it.
So why should I follow Bukhari, in fact, why should I follow any idle talk, vain discourse, baseless hearsay, you know, " ", texts which do indeed mislead from the correct path (stoning, death for apostasy, amputation, paganism), when I have " " sitting here in front of me, which also shows everything (significant) the messenger did?
Also, a saying of the messenger
If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear. -- Deuteronomy 2118-21
Again, I ask Allah mentions books other than the Quran as evidenced/referenced previously, why is Bukhari not mentioned as guidance when these are? If you do not know the answer, do not beat around the bush and use inconsistent logic to push out an answer like an overweight baby, simply say the words "I do not know". We are all human.
God sent the Taurah and sent messengers one after another to rule the Israelites by the rules of the Taurat and to explain it to the people over hundreds of years. The writings of those other messengers and orders were not Taurah, but they ruled by the taurat, and they explained it to the people. Those writings are part of the old testament itself.
I see. So Rashad Khalifa et al could never explain the Quran after the final Holy Prophet? but Moses had successors. Not that Rashad Khalifa is relevant as a messenger, this is simply an example. Now, can you explain why Allah decides to leave out details for the Taurat and left the job to messengers to explain, whereas Allah claims "this book is explained in detail" (6114, amongst others) and the messenger is said "I do not say aught of my own will" (650 - also many hadeeth contradict this) and that if the messenger were to invent any baseless hadith in Allah's name, he would be killed/silenced (6944)?
So, the people of the Taurah obeyed the messengers in their lives and they still do after their death through readings the different writings and rulings of all the hebrew messengers up to Jesus.
Which, of course, explains the need for two more authentic revelations. Of course, Jews already have their own ahadeeth, called the Talmud. Christians have Sahih-Matthew, Mark, Luke and John to follow on top. Can it be taken that Allah never orders us to follow the texts inside Bukhari and Muslim, BUT orders us to follow the text inside the Quran, which is detailed/distinct?
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Dear Brother
Reference please .
Why do Quranists always talk without ReferenceSorry, I retract that, I could not find a source which in modern days, the author and his idealogy could not be considered schizophrenic or had delusions/hallucinations or otherwise on crack, LSD, or in any state of mind incompatible with salat.
If you really wish...
http//www.al-islam.org/encyclopedia/chapter4/5.html
"O' daughter of the Prophet! I didn't love anyone as much as I
loved your father, nor anyone after him is more loving to me as
you are. But I swear by Allah that if these people assemble
here with you, then this love of mine would not prevent me from
setting your house on fire."Oh, how kind! Free central heating for Fatima! She will be warm for the rest of her life!
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It seems you are online, our beloved brother D )
http//quemaster.com/matrix/images/photos/matrix07.JPG
If you remember, I asked your opinion of 316. Specifically, why is "" in this verse not untranslated, in the same way it is not untranslated throughout the Quran, yet out of the Quran it is? Also, what does this verse entail?
Now, being a learner of Arabic, I also wish to ask what "" in 413 and another form in 6114 means. According to these bumbling fools here, it means "fully detailed", but how can it be when I need to know how Huzoor trimmed his beard, a detail not found in the Quran?
Finally, the most important one. Did the prophets(P.B.U.T.) say "amen" in their prayers/salat? For instance, after reciting Al-Fateha? What did Abraham say, " "? What did he do after prostration in the second, and fourth rakats of 4-rakat prayers, and in the 2nd and 3rd rakats of 3-rakat prayers?
WITH REFERENCE, PLEASE.
Note Transmitter of source should not be schizophrenic or delusional, or on crack, or other drugs/syndromes which cloud the mind. Examples of this entail the idea of walking several thousand miles through the desert to put up a cube when there were many similar artefacts already built. -
(emphasis mine)
Dear Brother
Reference please .
Why does Leoxyz talk GeneralisationsDear
all those I have encountered uptill now ,no one gives any reference.One guy gave Lisan ul Arab reference and unfortunately that was wrong reference.
Then generalization is justified. -
Peace Leoxyz,
What has been said that you need us to reference. In Sha Allah if it makes you understand our position better I am sure there are a number of people who would help you hunt down some reference etc. But if you do not wish to learn and merely want to mock us then no-one would wish to find references for you and waste their time. So what do you need explained? ???
Salaam
Al -
Peace Leoxyz,
What has been said that you need us to reference. In Sha Allah if it makes you understand our position better I am sure there are a number of people who would help you hunt down some reference etc. But if you do not wish to learn and merely want to mock us then no-one would wish to find references for you and waste their time. So what do you need explained? ???
Salaam
AlDear Brother
If someone comes up authentically ,I will become pretty serious because I am also a learner.But when I see wrong things are being posted without being backed up by proper reference ,I get upset.
See how many post actual arabic text of the Quran ?? -
But if you do not wish to learn and merely want to mock us then no-one would wish to find references for you and waste their time.
not many are going to waste their time repsonding to somebody who doesn't answer any of our questions and continues asking questions like a parrot. It's frustrating and a waste of time, I've personally stopped taking this guy seriously.
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No reply?
Could I expect anything less?
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not many are going to waste their time repsonding to somebody who doesn't answer any of our questions and continues asking questions like a parrot. It's frustrating and a waste of time, I've personally stopped taking this guy seriously.
Seen too many of those come and go. Ah well.
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Peace to all
Did Muhammad (PBUH) exist?
What was his father's name ?
When did he start getting revelation ?
How did he spend his days and nights?
How many wives did he have?
Did Battle of Badar & Uhad take place ?
How did Muhammad (PBUH) used to say Salat ? (How many times /day) and How many Rakaat were there in each Salaat?
Was ther "Adhaan" before each Salaat or not at his time?
If Adhaan was there how were its words compiled ?Please answer these questions ,rest will come forward.
With reference please.Salam.
Yes, prophet Muhammad existed, what would "they"gain by making up a man and prolonging his existance so long?
Is Muhammad's father's name really that important to me and you, to us, to our children, grandchildren, to those in the year 4047?
Again, same as before.
How did prophet Muhammad, who lived in the world of sand and attacks spend his days and nights? Well, he never experienced pressure of working from 0900 to 1700, right? He lived better life then us on some levels. I respect him because he survived the world, the life, the wars and the evil, without Secret Service, bulletproof vest, AK-47 and without any pills. I truly respect him.
He must have had more then one wife and less then 4. He cannot go against the Law of The God, right?
Prophets had many battles. They didn't have the time to write it down on Wikipedia.
Prophet Muhammad followed The Quran as much as one man can.
They called to the prayer, prayed and went on with their businesses.
Peace.
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So, can I have answers? With reference please. Rest will come forward.
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Peace,
WHY do we have to answer simple questions like the ones in the first post of this thread? Why?
When one sits down to think about the Creation... , the diversity of everything, the force of life and how life goes on and develops, the human mind, constructive things that bring good things such as kindness, truthfullness, honesty, helpfullness, justice, love and gratitude, our short lives, past civilizations, millions of years, the vastness of our planet, the solarsystem, the universe, God's incomprehendable greatness and nature, the afterlife, what we were before we came to Earth, the nature of our souls, spirits and bodies.. how small we humans are, incomparable to the Creator... .... ... then it doesn?t seem very crucial whether some prophet held left or right hand on his head while urinating squatting. Compared (which you really can?t anyway) to God and Life, even prophets seem disappearingly small. What are prophets? They are nothing but human beings that had enough goodness, skill and light in them to be able to delivere God?s message. They were just humans! What are humans "compared" to God? NOTHING!!!! Nothing at all! Yet we see the masses insist on elevating other human beings so much that those prophets/sons of God/saints etc become the central part of their lives. Whether they think these prophets etc are actually divine or not, doesn?t matter.. because in each case, humans give these prophets such an attention that ONLY suits GOD. This is idol worship. Why does muhammads name always hang next to God's name in mosques? Why does muhammad have 99 names just like God? WHY?
Why this overemphasis on everything EXCEPT God???
(the answer lies with God)
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770
"Progressive Muslims"
They said "Have you come to us to serve God alone and abandon what our fathers had served? Bring us what you promise if you are of the truthful ones!"3945
"Progressive Muslims"
And if God Alone is mentioned, the hearts of those who do not believe in the Hereafter become repulsed. But when others are mentioned beside Him, they rejoice!4012
"Progressive Muslims"
This is because when God Alone was mentioned, you rejected, but when partners were associated with Him, you believed. Therefore, the judgment is for God, the Most High, the Great. -
Chiming in...
- The truth is from your Lord, so do not be of those who doubt.
- Whoever debates with you in this after the knowledge has come to you, then say ?Let us call our children and your children, our women and your women, ourselves and yourselves, then, let us call out, and we shall make God?s curse upon the liars.?
- This is the narration of truth, there is no god but God; and God is the Noble, the Wise.
PEACE
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Salaam all
The answer to OPF's question regarding lahwa Al Hadeeth is in this thread
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=14594.0As for the question posed by DArgento, those are things that are mentioned for worship and following the messenger is not worshipping the messenger. It is part of worshipping God and worshipping God alone. Your following God alone is really your following your own bias alone. It is a word of truth used to support falsehood.
OPF in his post, talked about the use of logic in helping understand the Qur'an. It is a false statement and here is why
Since you all use logic in understanding the Qur'an, then how come you cannot agree on anything related to the simplest Qur'anic statements of Salat HAJJ and so on. True logic does not lead to disunity. It leads to unity. What you got then is poor understanding or poor logic or both.
As for the issue of detailed, then that will depend on how one understands the word FUSSILAT and one of you correctly pointed out that FUSSILAT does not mean detailed as you understand it. God made the Qur'an Fussila= delineated or separated and differentiated. As for the details of the implementation of what the Qur'an ordered, then they are in the Sunna= the consistent repeated actions of the prophet as witnessed by his followers. Consistent repeated actions is the Qur'anic definition of Sunna if you contemplate it. We are supposed to follow the messenger as per the Qur'an and that is what leads to consistent repeated actions, very much unlike your method of chaos and poor knowledge mixed with poor logic. A situation that does not lead to unity but disunity.
Abu Bakr did not fight Ali. The fights happened between Ali and Muwaiya. The division between Sunni and Shia is not political. Most Sunni scholars were on the side of Ali against Muwaiya. The reason the division continued is because of theological reasons. Shia ended up believing that the only person to interpret the Qur'an are the Ahl Al bayt. Sunnis believe that any person with deep knowledge can interpret the book. The differences in practices are minimal when compared with your own inner differences. Despite all their errors, Sunnis and Shias pray in the same direction at the same time and do hajj the same way and fast at the moon sighting and not in the middle of the heat of the summer when the moon is full.
Take care all
Hussein
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Salaam all
The answer to OPF's question regarding lahwa Al Hadeeth is in this thread
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=14594.0As for the question posed by DArgento, those are things that are mentioned for worship and following the messenger is not worshipping the messenger. It is part of worshipping God and worshipping God alone. Your following God alone is really your following your own bias alone. It is a word of truth used to support falsehood.
OPF in his post, talked about the use of logic in helping understand the Qur'an. It is a false statement and here is why
Since you all use logic in understanding the Qur'an, then how come you cannot agree on anything related to the simplest Qur'anic statements of Salat HAJJ and so on. True logic does not lead to disunity. It leads to unity. What you got then is poor understanding or poor logic or both.
As for the issue of detailed, then that will depend on how one understands the word FUSSILAT and one of you correctly pointed out that FUSSILAT does not mean detailed as you understand it. God made the Qur'an Fussila= delineated or separated and differentiated. As for the details of the implementation of what the Qur'an ordered, then they are in the Sunna= the consistent repeated actions of the prophet as witnessed by his followers. Consistent repeated actions is the Qur'anic definition of Sunna if you contemplate it. We are supposed to follow the messenger as per the Qur'an and that is what leads to consistent repeated actions, very much unlike your method of chaos and poor knowledge mixed with poor logic. A situation that does not lead to unity but disunity.
Abu Bakr did not fight Ali. The fights happened between Ali and Muwaiya. The division between Sunni and Shia is not political. Most Sunni scholars were on the side of Ali against Muwaiya. The reason the division continued is because of theological reasons. Shia ended up believing that the only person to interpret the Qur'an are the Ahl Al bayt. Sunnis believe that any person with deep knowledge can interpret the book. The differences in practices are minimal when compared with your own inner differences. Despite all their errors, Sunnis and Shias pray in the same direction at the same time and do hajj the same way and fast at the moon sighting and not in the middle of the heat of the summer when the moon is full.
Take care all
Hussein
Thanks. It's good to see you are responding, rather than ignoring and posing your own thoughts continually, God be praised.
Can you direct me to the exact post? On page 8 there is a similar but not exact citation and you say "That refers to those who reject".
OPF in his post, talked about the use of logic in helping understand the Qur'an. It is a false statement and here is why
Since you all use logic in understanding the Qur'an, then how come you cannot agree on anything related to the simplest Qur'anic statements of Salat HAJJ and so on. True logic does not lead to disunity. It leads to unity. What you got then is poor understanding or poor logic or both.
It is not a false statement. It is true by its own virtue - we need to use logic when addressing the Quran. My statement was that we need to use the same technique used already - ijtihad - sans ahadith. Again, logic must be combined with other things. Logic in itself can be used to do ANYTHING (studies show criminals are left handed, polar bears are left handed, hence polar bears are criminals), what keeps it in check are things such as context and taking into account all factors. In this case, people will leave out verse X or Y to justify their understanding of salat/zakat/hajj. So what is present is a combination of all the above (as long as we are human, this will ALWAYS happen, and it happens in every circle, Sunni included - the reason there is no similar effect is due to the sheer number of Sunni scholars).
then how come you cannot agree on anything related to the simplest Qur'anic statements of Salat HAJJ and so on.
This is false and you know it. Unless you mean universal consensus. Which simply does not exist in any circle, the difference being that due to Sunni manpower, it is on a higher degree of superficiality, rather than at the fundamentals.
As for the issue of detailed, then that will depend on how one understands the word FUSSILAT and one of you correctly pointed out that FUSSILAT does not mean detailed as you understand it. God made the Qur'an Fussila= delineated or separated and differentiated. As for the details of the implementation of what the Qur'an ordered, then they are in the Sunna= the consistent repeated actions of the prophet as witnessed by his followers. Consistent repeated actions is the Qur'anic definition of Sunna if you contemplate it. We are supposed to follow the messenger as per the Qur'an and that is what leads to consistent repeated actions, very much unlike your method of chaos and poor knowledge mixed with poor logic. A situation that does not lead to unity but disunity.
Yusuf Ali and Marmaduke Pickthal translate fussilat as "detailed" and "explained".
http//www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/006.qmt.html#006.114
We are supposed to follow the messenger as per the Qur'an and that is what leads to consistent repeated actions, very much unlike your method of chaos and poor knowledge mixed with poor logic. A situation that does not lead to unity but disunity.
Can you explain which messenger? Hint Trick question. Let's not jump from A=>C here, without verifying B, A = Messenger, B = Bukhari, C = Obeying the messenger.
May I add, 610. Very important aya.
Abu Bakr did not fight Ali.
Sorry, wrong word. Allegiance dispute, and property dispute. Disunity.
Shia ended up believing that the only person to interpret the Qur'an are the Ahl Al bayt. Sunnis believe that any person with deep knowledge can interpret the book.
Please tell me that was satire. Last time I checked, Shia disregard the corpus of Sunni thought and rely on "ahlul-bayt". Does it not say in the Quran - do not become "Shia"? Sunnis believe any person with deep knowledge can interpret the book. As long as it does not affect what they found their forefathers doing, i.e. traditions.
The differences in practices are minimal when compared with your own inner differences.
Please show me images of Sunnis who slice each other up every year.
The differences in practices are minimal when compared with your own inner differences.
Really... Satire?
Despite all their errors, Sunnis and Shias pray in the same direction at the same time and do hajj the same way and fast at the moon sighting and not in the middle of the heat of the summer when the moon is full.
The irony is that the traditional "hajj" is pagan by self-admission.
Here
Volume 6, Book 60, Number 23
Narrated 'Asim bin Sulaiman
I asked Anas bin Malik about Safa and Marwa. Anas replied, "We used to consider (i.e. going around) them a custom of the Pre-islamic period of Ignorance, so when Islam came, we gave up going around them. Then Allah revealed" "Verily, Safa and Marwa (i.e. two mountains at Mecca) are among the Symbols of Allah. So it is not harmful of those who perform the Hajj of the House (of Allah) or perform the Umra to ambulate (Tawaf) between them." (2.15
There is a compendium of these at http//www.bible.ca/islam/islam-myths-hajj-pagan-origin.htm
The source is heavily biased but the references are there for all to see. Isn't it strange...
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There's a difference between people having different levels of understandings/interpretations of things and "disunity." 1.6 billion Muslims putting their whole faith in a few HUMAN scholars, sure it's "unity," does that mean it's right? No. We discuss things and try to gain our own best individual understanding. This leaves for personal improvement, always room for becoming a better muslim. To you, on the other hand, the meaning of improvement is synonymous with the amount of ahadith (manmade works) memorized. The quran is just an afterthought.
Peace
