To Obey the Prophet(PBUH) is obligatory to every Muslim
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Peace,
Since you guys are "Qur'an aloners" then bring an Aya that says that the Qur'an is created. The Qur'an and all the books of God are words of God. Words are not entities that stand alone. Entities are two kinds
1- stand alone and those are then divided into created and uncreated. The only stand alone uncreated entity is God.
2- Entities that do not stand alone. Those are then called attributes of stand alone entities. If it is an attribute of a created entity then it is created and if it is an attribute of an uncreated entity, then they are uncreated.
3- Jesus is called word of God and created by the Quran. However the Qur'an was mentioned as the word of God but no mention of creation. The reason is that Jesus is stand alone and therefore the designation of word for him means that he was created by the word of God "Kun" and not being the actual word of God.
Words or statements are never stand alone. They are always in the speaker, and then they are attribute, in the listener or carried on created means of communication.
Then shall we worship Qur?an as Christians do their idols?
Which exact text or voice? What about IRON was it uncreated?
5725 We sent aforetime our apostles with Clear Signs and sent down with them the Book and the Balance (of Right and Wrong), that men may stand forth in justice; and We sent down IRON, in which is (material for) mighty war, as well as many benefits for mankind, that Allah may test who it is that will help, Unseen, Him and His apostles For Allah is Full of Strength, Exalted in Might (and able to enforce His Will).
2185 Ramadhan is the (month) in which was sent down the Qur'an, as a guide to mankind, also clear (Signs) for guidance and judgment (Between right and wrong). So every one of you who is present (at his home) during that month should spend it in fasting, but if any one is ill, or on a journey, the prescribed period (Should be made up) by days later. Allah intends every facility for you; He does not want to put to difficulties. (He wants you) to complete the prescribed period, and to glorify Him in that He has guided you; and perchance ye shall be grateful.
Wama kana hatha alqur-anu an yuftara min dooni Allahi walakin tasdeeqa allathee bayna yadayhi watafseela alkitabi la rayba feehi min rabbi alAAalameena
1037 This QUR'AN is not such as can be produced by other than Allah. on the contrary it is a confirmation of (revelations) that went before it, and a fuller explanation of the Book - wherein there is no doubt - from the Lord of the worlds.151 A. L. R. These are the Ayats of Revelation,- of a Qur'an that makes things clear.
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Is it not funny that you should quote about iron being physically sent down...
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Brother Zulf,
That is your opinion but many here disagree with you. Brother OPF considers all hadeeth as baseless hadeeth. I have no problem with the view that you hold. I have a question for you
If you read a hadeeth that contained an order and you arrive at a conclusion that the prophet probably said it. Would you obey? or not? and why?
Dear Hussein, peace!
Regarding your question
If I read a hadeeth which contained an order that I concluded that the prophet must have said, then yes, I would have probably followed it. I mean, this is the reason why people follow hadeeth and sunnah... they really do (or want to) (or are raised/culturally programmed to) believe that the prophet said those words. Its simple. The break arises when someone comes to the conclusion that either the prophet didn't say those words, or they just can't tell if he did or didn't. We are afterall required to use our intellect and verify things as per the words of the quran.So, my answer to your question is clear, under the circumstances you detailed,
However,
- As per my reading, pondering, application of logic, I have come to the conclusion that it is impossible to be sure whether the prophet said this or that, simply becasue there is no way to verify it. We can only trust in narrations and what various people have said, but we can?t verify it 100%.
- As per my reading, pondering and application of logic, I believe that the prophet (the last one) would not give universal orders, laws, decrees for eveyone to follow, and at the same time saying the they are laws from God that you should follow. I mean to say that the prophet handed over the quran to humanity from God so that we may have some wise guidance. I believe that even if the prophet explained the whole, or parts, of the quran, those words themselves cannot be law. Only the quran, imo, is law, and the interpretation for goodness is part of the human challenge. We are instructed through the quran to follow the best of what we learn, when we have options. Our goodness also shows in our interpretation of the quran to some extent.
To summarize I believe that
a) the prophet didn?t give laws outside the quran
b) explanations and their wordings are not directly laws, since they are not necessarily eternal or 100% determined.
c) we cannot determine if and what someone (e.g. the prophet) said. it is just impossible to sure.That is your opinion but many here disagree with you. Brother OPF considers all hadeeth as baseless hadeeth.
A) If many disagree with me,.. well, no problem.
B) What does baseless mean? Without wisdom? Unauthorized? I have some difficuilty understanding this word right now.Sunnis do not believe that hadeeth is divine law. Actually, the schools of thought amongst sunnism differ about whether or not to apply or accept many hadeeths. They all agree on the principle of "obey the messenger" as ordered in the Qur'an in more than 44 places.
Actually, I'm glad we are having this conversation... it's a chance for me to learn something. I'd love to get this topic clarified to myself.
Q1. Ok. For simplicity, let's assume we have a collection of hadeeth that are agreed upon that come from the prophet and that are sensible. Are they then law or not? If sunnis don't believe hadeeths are divine law, then what do they believe they are? If quran is divine law, and we should follow it, what level does hadeeth come at, according to sunnis, and how much and how closely should we follow hadeeth?
Q2. So everyone agrees that we should obey the messenger, but there are different interpretations to this. I guess the sunnis interpretation is that we should follow, beside the quran, the things the prophet has (according to sunnis) recommended and ordered through Hadeeth and Sunnah. So it is clear we should obey, but it is not clear what to obey. How important is it to follow hadeeth and sunnah in comparison with the quran? I guess this is the same as the previous question...
Peace!
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B) What does baseless mean? Without wisdom? Unauthorized? I have some difficuilty understanding this word right now.
Just for reference, the word in question, lahwa, basically entails something which is diversionary. It is different from recreation (in the context of Quran at the least), and basically, it is something which serves as a distraction/decoy/occupier. In any case, it does not entail anything positive whatsoever. As for "baseless", that entails something which has zero relevance and can only distract, and has no foundation. So a baseless saying, would thus be conjecture. Both meanings you gave were correct.
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However,
- As per my reading, pondering, application of logic, I have come to the conclusion that it is impossible to be sure whether the prophet said this or that, simply becasue there is no way to verify it. We can only trust in narrations and what various people have said, but we can?t verify it 100%.
Dear
I appreciate your thoughts and agree to certain points also.But.......What is your criteria for a thing to be 100% correct and verified?
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Dear
I appreciate your thoughts and agree to certain points also.But.......What is your criteria for a thing to be 100% correct and verified?
Peace,
There might not be such a source ???
Majidah
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Salaam all,
It is not the sent down that is the reason for the Qur'an being not created. Also iron is created because it is in the earth and God said that He created the earth and what is in it. Also, the iron is standing alone. The Qur'an is never standing alone. The words of God are always with God, in the listener or carried on created means of communications. The words themselves are not standing alone and therefore the question of being created does not apply.
No, you do not worship the Qur'an because you worship the standing alone entity and that is God. The words of God are attributes because they are not standing alone.
Zulf, perhaps you can question your logic a little.
Q1. Ok. For simplicity, let's assume we have a collection of hadeeth that are agreed upon that come from the prophet and that are sensible. Are they then law or not? If sunnis don't believe hadeeths are divine law, then what do they believe they are? If quran is divine law, and we should follow it, what level does hadeeth come at, according to sunnis, and how much and how closely should we follow hadeeth?
Q2. So everyone agrees that we should obey the messenger, but there are different interpretations to this. I guess the sunnis interpretation is that we should follow, beside the quran, the things the prophet has (according to sunnis) recommended and ordered through Hadeeth and Sunnah. So it is clear we should obey, but it is not clear what to obey. How important is it to follow hadeeth and sunnah in comparison with the quran? I guess this is the same as the previous question...
If all and you as well concluded that the prophet ordered something, then you are bound to obey it. The Qur'an tells you to obey the messenger. God knew that the messenger will order things outside the Qur'an. He would not have said "obey the messenger" if He did not want us to obey those orders. God could have easily said otherwise, unless you guys want to make God order what he did not know about, then it will be much worse of a situation. There is also no disagreement about what "obey the messenger" means. All Muslims but you guys understand it the same way. They disagree on if or what he said, but not on the meaning of the order from God nor the fact that it is mandatory.
Take care all and have a great day.
Hussein
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Can you please explain the significance of the Quran being created or not, thanks.
Please remember that for a word to have been uttered for a human, the brain must work in such and such a way to create the appropriate sequence, and sounds. As for God, he is all-powerful.
There is also no disagreement about what "obey the messenger" means.
I agree, it is quite obvious that it means "obey he who brought forth the message".
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Peace all,
The absurdity of the "uncreated Quran" only demonstrates how Sunnism and its blind followers are completely irrational. Thus it is not surprising to see Hussein dance around the major logical problems that his dogmatic absurdity has created. He is not the first or the last, no Sunni was ever able to address the following issues
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Since the great reading is uncreated it also follows that every word in the great reading is uncreated. So the words of Moses and all the other people who speak and even Iblis's words (he speaks there too) are all uncreated. Of course this is absurd.
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Since the great reading is in Arabic and it is uncreated and eternal then Arabic must be uncreated and eternal too!!! Of course this is another absurdity.
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Since Jesus is clearly descibed as as "the god's word", then he too is uncreated and eternal. Of course Hussein keeps dancing around this issue and dismisses it because he can't properly address it.
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The god told us that he has sent previous books, however those were corrupted. Hussein is saying that the words of god are like god and thus are uncreated and eternal. Since we know that those words were corrupted, then they are certainly not eternal and certainly god cannot be corrupted so Hussein' analogy is completely false.
Others have brought many other issues and I can bring many more problems with the Sunni anti-rationalist dogma of the "uncreated Quran", but let's see if they can answer the above. I know they can't and they will continue to dance around the issues.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace OPF,
Can you please explain the significance of the Quran being created or not, thanks.
Isn't it obvious? The same people who claim such nonsense are those who hang the so-called Quran on their walls and make amulets out of its pages to ward-off evil spirits, cure the sick and all sorts of nonsense. They have essentially turned the great reading into an idol.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace,
The Qur'an is never standing alone. The words of God are always with God,
No, you do not worship the Qur'an because you worship the standing alone entity and that is God.
Re-read your post; an obvious contradiction using deductive reasoning if A then B.
In addition to what Ayman posted; read...
Wama kana hatha alqur-anu an yuftara min dooni Allahi...
1037 And this the Qur'an was/is not that it be fabricated from (by) other than God,...Inna jaAAalnahu qur-anan AAarabiyyan laAAallakum taAAqiloona
433 We made it an Arabic Qur?an, maybe/perhaps you reason/comprehend.Fa-innama yassarnahu bilisanika laAAallahum yatathakkaroona
4458 So We eased it/We made it flexible with your tongue/language, maybe/perhaps they mention/remember. -
Salaam all,
1- The issue is that Sunnis are not going outside of the Qur'an to claim the Qur'an created. You guys however, are using your nonsense logic to make things up, and then imposing it on the Qur'an. Where is the Qur'an alone business?.
2- I responded to the issue of Jesus before.
3- Yuftara and jaal do not mean manufactured/created.
4- When you think and then you speak you are not creating words. You are expressing yourself. Expressing yourself is not an act of creation. Your words are created because you are created. The words of God are not created because God is not created.
5- The Qur'an is the word of God. When it mentions the words of the creation in it, it is still the word of God narrating what the others said. We do that all the time.
6- As for the corruption of the bible and the Torah, that is God's business. His words were not changed, they were always with him. He allowed the people to make changes because He was planning for another message. It is part of God employing abrogation.
Take care all.
hussein
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As for the Arabic language, it does not become eternal. God can speak in any way he wants, including Arabic and Hebrew. That does not the make the languages God or uncreated. Only the words of God are uncreated. The languages in which He expressed himself to us remain what they are with no additional halo around them.
When you believe that the Qur'an is not created, then you are not believing in another God. Why? becaues the words of God are not separated from God. What you hang on the walls are the created means of communicating God's words. The means of communication are created, while the words are not.
Hussein
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Peace,
3- Yuftara and jaal do not mean manufactured/created.
4- When you think and then you speak you are not creating words. You are expressing yourself. Expressing yourself is not an act of creation. Your words are created because you are created. The words of God are not created because God is not created.
Are you 100% sure about this and how things with God really are?
Why not go according to how God says they are?
Please translate the exact meaning for above verses posted along with these...
http//www.islamicity.com/mosque/arabicscript/Ayat/19/19_97.htm
http//www.islamicity.com/mosque/arabicscript/Ayat/44/44_58.htm
Thank you.
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Peace,
Are you 100% sure about this and how things with God really are?
Why not go according to how God says they are?
Please translate the exact meaning for above verses posted along with these...
http//www.islamicity.com/mosque/arabicscript/Ayat/19/19_97.htm
http//www.islamicity.com/mosque/arabicscript/Ayat/44/44_58.htm
Thank you.
Dear
These also need translation2252
3108
456
2253
4251
275
96
4815
11120
1813
NoteIf some aya is not found in the respective reference then please let me know.Thanks
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Dear
These also need translation2252
3108
456
2253
4251
275
96
4815
11120
1813
NoteIf some aya is not found in the respective reference then please let me know.Thanks
Obviously, most on this site AGREE those are God?s verses.
However, the question is did God create them? The verses you posted don?t address this.
To claim Qur'an is eternal according to other sources/definitions is serious. What did God say?
http//www.islamicity.com/mosque/arabicscript/Ayat/10/10_37.htm
http//www.islamicity.com/mosque/arabicscript/Ayat/43/43_3.htm
http//www.islamicity.com/mosque/arabicscript/Ayat/44/44_58.htm
Btw, Leoxyz ? Yes, you did miss a few?
413
552
801Perhaps you can translate especially beginning of Surah 80 -- love to see your version.
Peace
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Obviously, most on this site AGREE those are God?s verses.
However, the question is did God create them? The verses you posted don?t address this.
To claim Qur'an is eternal according to other sources/definitions is serious. What did God say?
http//www.islamicity.com/mosque/arabicscript/Ayat/10/10_37.htm
http//www.islamicity.com/mosque/arabicscript/Ayat/43/43_3.htm
http//www.islamicity.com/mosque/arabicscript/Ayat/44/44_58.htm
Btw, Leoxyz ? Yes, you did miss a few?
413
552
801Perhaps you can translate especially beginning of Surah 80 -- love to see your version.
Peace
So you want to say
- = means "To create ????
- = means "To create????
- = means "To create????
2156
Only and only a Quranist can say like this.
After all in-built defect They can
1Ma3toof/ma3toof alai can have different "i3raab"
2Quran can be translated on "may/may not" pattern
3Tamper the translation
4Say that "To teach a book is same as to give a book"
Then why not this distortion of mean as usual.?? -
So you want to say
- = means "To create ????
- = means "To create????
- = means "To create????
2156
Only and only a Quranist can say like this.
After all in-built defect They can
1Ma3toof/ma3toof alai can have different "i3raab"
2Quran can be translated on "may/may not" pattern
3Tamper the translation
4Say that "To teach a book is same as to give a book"
Then why not this distortion of mean as usual.??No, I want you to say what these verses mean.
http//www.islamicity.com/mosque/arabicscript/Ayat/10/10_37.htm
http//www.islamicity.com/mosque/arabicscript/Ayat/43/43_3.htm
http//www.islamicity.com/mosque/arabicscript/Ayat/44/44_58.htm
413
552
801Why no opinion, always the freaky faces; why don?t you add some value to these discussions ? are you afraid of making a mistake?
Where is your confidence and faith in that what you believe is right?
Do you even have an opinion other than that we are all wicked pseudo-intellectuals?
http//www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pseudointellectual&r=f
- pseudointellectual
Created solely as an attempt to display the author's intellectual prowess though actually void of real pith; intellectualism as style rather than substance. Often relies on heavy name dropping and erudite, obscure terminology instead of easily understood, common words.
- Pseudointellectual
One who imposes a smart remark yet truly it makes little to no sense - nonsense. Usually happens when people come up with real bad comebacks that either make no sense or are thoughtless - empty words.