To Obey the Prophet(PBUH) is obligatory to every Muslim
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Salaam all,
Nun, the "make" in make easy for Yassarna does not have to mean the make of create. You can make your speech easy or difficult. Your speech is still not a creation because the words are always in you and never leave you. They are merely communicated to others through means of communication. The words themselves are in the speaker or the listener or carried in means of communication. They never stand alone.
Samia,
That's not true. If they believe that a hadith can abrogate a verse, then not only do they believe that hadith is divine law, but they believe that it is more divine than the qur'aan. Example "No will to benefit a heir laa wasiyyata liwaarithin" abrogates 2180; stoning/killing adulterers abrogates 242; killing the apostates contradicts the teachings of the qur'aan. The theory of hadith/actions of the prophet abrogating some verses finds its way to the Islamic law/shari3a
The opinion of Imam Shafii who wrote on the importance of hadeeth is that Hadeeth never abrogates the Qur'an and that is the opinion of the bigger scholars of Sunnis Islam, esepcially the four Imams. As for the examples that you brought out. They are examples of particular exceptions to general rules, but no abrogation. The particular exception to general rules apply to all the general statements of the Qur'an, whether there is hadeeth or not. It is part of the language. The hadeeth in those examples, gives you particular exceptions. Other exceptions, if applicable, may work too.
This is not like differ in accepting hadith. they accept the main ones. When they differ, they have to add up to the hadith, like that of suckling the adult where those opposing it said it was not "suckling", but she had do "milk" herself and serve him the milk in a cup. As stupid as this explanation is, it is plain forgery. The woman is sterile for heaven's sake, and that's why she adopted this boy-turned-man. Even if she was not, and even if she had children, does this mean she will have milk a la carte?
and...One baseless hadith is too many to find its way in the legislation
You were not there to say or know what she did. Some scholars that the hadeeth was for her only and cannot be applied to anyone else. A rule made on a hadeeth can be always reversed if the hadeeth is proven wrong or disputed. That has always been the case. As for your last sentence, the risk is there in hadeeth and it is present when you are allowed to use your brain for a ruling or to play mainpulative games with the Qur'anic statements. I can see many examples from posters on this forum, where their "rulings" can cause chaos all over.
Throwing gays off a cliff in a bag
Stonning those who leave islam and the adulteres
That you can have 4 wives, in the condition you can please then all.
The 5 prayers a day (with the hadith that tells us that the prophet was sent to heaven to lower down the numbers of prayers... That is the only explanation someone gave me so far for the 5 prayers...)
That your wife has to do whatever you ask her, except if it goes against the orders of Allah1- There is not a single hadeeth in Bukhari that says that. In fact there is a wide variation in Sunni Scholars opinions there from light punishment to punishment equal to Zina to the one you mentioned. That last opinion is only present in the maliki school, the Shia and some but not all hanbalis school of thought.
2- Again, the Imam Abu Hanifa refused to kill the apostate. This is an example of someone who is Sunni but had a different opinion depending either on his understanding of the main hadeeth or early muslim practice. As for the stoning, the books of hadeeth, as in Bukhari, give us clues to questions whether the practice of stoning was abrogated. This same question is in Shafii's book, Alrisala.
3- four wives is in the Qur'an. Yes you will come back and say that the Aya says if you cannot and you will not be able to treat them equally then one. However, then one would ask Why would God be so convoluted when He wanted us to only marry one? That defeats the literary miracle and clarity of the Qur'an. Mainly, you cannot make that Aya mean only one wife without having significant dissenting opinions from anyone.
No comment on five prayers. there is more evidence on it and that is thousands prayed with him for years. That is the bigger evidence.
As for the wife obeying her husband in God's path. What does Nushuz mean? It is all in 434.
Dion,
Please tell me of another way of bowing except for the only possible way humans can bow. We are phisically not capable of multiways of bowing.
Ask your fellow members of this forum who do not believe in a ritual prayer. Also ask Tanveer who does Sujood with his chin touching the ground.
Zulf,
Well, strictly speaking, you can't verify something unless you yourself observe it.
Have you observed God? This is an example of why you need to question your logic. Will you reject God because you have not observed him? It is true that you should not accept everything that you cannot verify, but neither should you reject it either. Sometimes you have to depend on your heart and mind and on probabilities rather than strictly observing.
Take care all and have a great day.
Hussein
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Samia,The opinion of Imam Shafii who wrote on the importance of hadeeth is that Hadeeth never abrogates the Qur'an and that is the opinion of the bigger scholars of Sunnis Islam, esepcially the four Imams. As for the examples that you brought out. They are examples of particular exceptions to general rules, but no abrogation.
Salaam Hussein
Whose opinion it is does not matter. This is not the subject here. What matters is that such an opinion found its way to Islamic law.
Please tell me how "for the parents and nearest of kin" is general and contains "no heirs"? Which is a general rule and which is an exceptional rule? When you say it is (a particular exception to a general rule) the two should not be mutually exclusive. These are mutually exclusive. You can't have the parents and nearest of kin on a will and no heirs at the same time. Contradicting laws and only one is applicable means the applied one abrogated the non applied one. You just can't say it is not abrogation and get away with it. This is false by logic. Actually, this is given as an example of abrogation of a verse by hadith. Stoning is given as an example of abrogation by action.
You were not there to say or know what she did.
Nor was the mulla who was justifying the story. If I remember, it was you who wrote this story of justification in one of your posts. I do not remember you commenting that this mulla was not there.
At least I am commenting on the comments of someone who was not there either. I am not commenting on the hadith. I am taking it as it is told and throwing it altogether in the garbage No make up would work.A rule made on a hadeeth can be always reversed if the hadeeth is proven wrong or disputed. That has always been the case.
Please tell me of the last time, or anytime, the Islamic law went under a reform scheme.
As for your last sentence, the risk is there in hadeeth and it is present when you are allowed to use your brain for a ruling or to play mainpulative games with the Qur'anic statements. I can see many examples from posters on this forum, where their "rulings" can cause chaos all over.
Typical. When you have no valid argument, jump to your personal attacks.
You can't equate me or any individual person to the law maker mulla. If I want to write a will the way I want, my opinion is useless and the Islamic law will prevail no matter what. And please give an example of any ruling in this forum that can cause chaos all over. -
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Which is low in your case your age or your IQ?
Both
I know you must beyond 70yr and your IQ = 130.
Your posts about "Khimaar" are pretty obvious.
Proof is HereSamia said
"Sorry, I am not in a position to say which is correct, and I do not see why both cannot be correct. When it is cold, and I have no access to warm water, I would rub my feet; or if I am somewhere where the sink is too high for me, I can't just splash water on the floor, so I rub. Otherwise I wash them (washing is the default in my case). Perhaps God left it like that as a way of making things easy for us".
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Zulf,Have you observed God? This is an example of why you need to question your logic. Will you reject God because you have not observed him? It is true that you should not accept everything that you cannot verify, but neither should you reject it either. Sometimes you have to depend on your heart and mind and on probabilities rather than strictly observing.
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LEOXYZ I believe that the quran is from God and that its message has been preserved.
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HUSSEIN
Can anyone observe God? Can God be proven? How? God gives us signs. God asks us to observe his creation so that we may realize his existence. In that way I have indeed observed God.. and I think that the existence of God is quite logical as far as we humans can comprehend.
Well, my thinking goes like this I have chosen to believe that the quran is from God due to how the quran is written and what is written in it etc. It is from the quran that I derive the basis for my hadeeth-independence.
If we may depend on the heart, mind and probabilities in accepting that written laws are from God, then we may accept hadeeth, BUT in that case we must also accept OTHER sources as a law from God and follow them on the same conditions! Such sources could be anything, e.g. Biblical texts, Vedas, Talmud and many other texts and scriptures that have "Godly" messages. If we not only follow the quran, but also hadeeth, then there are no resons not to follow further other texts!
IMO, the proving of hadeeth as mandatory through the quran has a strong resemblance to the christians proving that jesus is the son of God through the bible.
Ok.
One straight question Do you think that one may enter heaven if one has consciously decided to reject hadeeth as something mandatory to follow??
Another version of the same question Is it necessary to follow hadeeth for salvation??
Yet another version Can one neter heaven if you live only by the quran and don't follow the hadeeth(i.e. not taking it as anything necessary)??Peace!
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btw, God is not part of his creation imo. God is beyond the creation. Proving/verifying God would not be the same as proving/verifying some part of his creation. Or?
Classical Quranist mentality Avoid and circumvent the Question.
So you Admit that Quran is not "Creation" .
Right ?
Would you please tell this to other friends of you?? -
Salaam Hussein
That's not true. If they believe that a hadith can abrogate a verse, then not only do they believe that hadith is divine law, but they believe that it is more divine than the qur'aan. Example "No will to benefit a heir laa wasiyyata liwaarithin" abrogates 2180; stoning/killing adulterers abrogates 242; killing the apostates contradicts the teachings of the qur'aan. The theory of hadith/actions of the prophet abrogating some verses finds its way to the Islamic law/shari3a
I have to agree that Hadith cannot abrogate the Quran.But why a Quranist abrogates the order of the Quranic Ayaat e.g.
Do you blieve in "Itaa3t ur Rasool " mentioned in this aya;459
So you do not believe in abrogation of Quranic Aya, then why to reject "itaa3t ur Rasool"??? or double standards as usual. -
Dear
What is the Criteria that you think 100% that Quran is from God and it is preserved??Like I mentioned in my pre-previous post (pls read it again) I BELIEVE that the quran is from God due to its contents and form. I can't prove it. No-one can. I can just believe. But it's not blind faith becasue someone said that's how it is. For example, I haven't come across anything that point toward that the quran would NOT be from God. Same goes for the preservation of the message.
Classical Quranist mentality Avoid and circumvent the Question.
So you Admit that Quran is not "Creation" .
Right ?
Would you please tell this to other friends of you??Brother LEOXYZ,
First of all, I haven't been following the debate on the quran being created or uncreated or what.. so I haven't made any stand on that! Ok?
And how did you come to the conclusion that I think quran is not part of creation. I said GOD is not part of creation. I didn't even mention the quran being created or not!! I didn't discuss it!
Second of all, please put your question again that you claim I have circumvented and avoided so that I can answer it. I don't know what you mean. What was the question? Please, hold your horses.
Third, my friends don't even know about this website, so why should I bring that up with them? -
I have to agree that Hadith cannot abrogate the Quran.But why a Quranist abrogates the order of the Quranic Ayaat e.g.
Do you blieve in "Itaa3t ur Rasool " mentioned in this aya;459
So you do not believe in abrogation of Quranic Aya, then why to reject "itaa3t ur Rasool"??? or double standards as usual.Obey/follow messenger according to Qur?an; e.g. be nice to parents, don?t frown at the blind, etc?
AAabasa watawalla
801 Frowned and turned away.
Nun, the "make" in make easy for Yassarna does not have to mean the make of create. You can make your speech easy or difficult. Your speech is still not a creation because the words are always in you and never leave you. They are merely communicated to others through means of communication. The words themselves are in the speaker or the listener or carried in means of communication. They never stand alone.
hlatif, thank you for the reply; at least we can discuss things sensibly.
Yes, I can accommodate my speech which is a form of creation and this is not about my speech and really don't know how things work with God; it's beyond my scope and will not dwell too much into ambiguities.
Peace
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Like I mentioned in my pre-previous post (pls read it again) I BELIEVE that the quran is from God due to its contents and form. I can't prove it. No-one can. I can just believe. But it's not blind faith becasue someone said that's how it is. For example, I haven't come across anything that point toward that the quran would NOT be from God. Same goes for the preservation of the message.
you want to say that there is
-no proof that Quran is from God
-no Proof that Quran is presereved
Am If right to understand you ? -
you want to say that there is
-no proof that Quran is from God
-no Proof that Quran is presereved
Am If right to understand you ?My brother,
- regarding the preservation of the quran As far as I know, historical records point towards the preservation of the quran, i.e. there are not different versions of the quran in terms of the message contained in the text, only minor differences in terms of spelling etc (as far as I know). Call it whatever you want, proof or not proof. All I'm saying is that there seems to be no reasons thinking the quran is not preserved. That's what I'm saying. Nothing points to the contrary... be that proof or not.
- If there was clear proof of anything pertaining to religion, then wouldn't everyone believe in that thing? I don't know of any proof that would convince everyone that the quran is from God. Most people don't give a damn about proof anyway, they just follow what their parents followed and cling to that no matter what is presented. I believe the quran is from God due to all that is written in it. Like I have already said, I don't know of anything that points toward that the quran is not from God. I'm not in a position of saying whether there are proofs or not. Maybe there are, but I haven't found them?
so to your two questions about proof I can't say yes or no... i don't know. But according to me, everything points toward that the quran is from God and is preserved. Nothing points to the contrary. Do you understand what I mean?
- Why don't you answer some of my questions aswell... I'm answering all your as well as I can. Let's make it reciprocal, give and take.
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"Another sunni mentalist show
The Holy Quran says"
26-10
I agree with you that ayaas are exposing particular mentality and pointing to those people who are (Quran speaks)
332
4733
6412
414
3336
7223
963
You know how clear these verses are.Allah told us 1400 yrs ago.Allaho Akbar
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My brother,
- regarding the preservation of the quran As far as I know, historical records point towards the preservation of the quran, i.e. there are not different versions of the quran in terms of the message contained in the text, only minor differences in terms of spelling etc (as far as I know). Call it whatever you want, proof or not proof. All I'm saying is that there seems to be no reasons thinking the quran is not preserved. That's what I'm saying. Nothing points to the contrary... be that proof or not.
- If there was clear proof of anything pertaining to religion, then wouldn't everyone believe in that thing? I don't know of any proof that would convince everyone that the quran is from God. Most people don't give a damn about proof anyway, they just follow what their parents followed and cling to that no matter what is presented. I believe the quran is from God due to all that is written in it. Like I have already said, I don't know of anything that points toward that the quran is not from God. I'm not in a position of saying whether there are proofs or not. Maybe there are, but I haven't found them?
so to your two questions about proof I can't say yes or no... i don't know. But according to me, everything points toward that the quran is from God and is preserved. Nothing points to the contrary. Do you understand what I mean?
- Why don't you answer some of my questions aswell... I'm answering all your as well as I can. Let's make it reciprocal, give and take.
Dear ;
Let me put it another way.you were born and during your childhood you were introduced with Quran as a devine book.
-Did Quran itself tell you that it is a devine book or
-someone else told you
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LEOXYZ
Dear ;
Let me put it another way.you were born and during your childhood you were introduced with Quran as a devine book.
-Did Quran itself tell you that it is a devine book or
-someone else told you
??I was born - yes
Was I introduced to the quran as a divine book during my childhood? - NO, not at all!
Did the quran tell you its a divine book? - Yes, haven't you read it??
Did someone else tell you? - No-one preached it to me, or wanted me to believe it.So...You don't feel like answering any of my questions? Ok then.... thanks. giveup