Hitting One's Wife.
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Thanks - I find your honesty and frankness refreshing.
How does your rational mind deal with such an uncomfortable truth?
This is how think about it
To be very logical, this ungraceful (or seemingly ungraceful) instruction is not a valid ground to say that Quran is not a word of God. It does add a slight bias though, however it does not prove anything. Issues that tops the ungraceful (or seemingly ungraceful) list are cutting hands, four marriages, permission to the prophet for more than four. On logical grounds they do not prove anything either. "Mistakes" are the only criteria that will prove that this is a man written book. Humans can make mistake. God cannot. Be them internal contradictions or contradiction with science.There are three kinds of people
1- Who rejects the book.
2- Who accepts the book on the face value with best meanings.
3- Who tries to tweak part of the book to make it more acceptable by inventing meanings.I want to be in group 1 or 2.
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I?ve given up on most translations except for quick reference and use mostly literal.
an-Nisa' (Women) 434
http//www.islamawakened.com/Quran/4/34/
Alrrijalu qawwamoona AAala alnnisa-i bima faddala Allahu baAAdahum AAala baAAdin wabima anfaqoo min amwalihim faalssalihatu qanitatun hafithatun lilghaybi bima hafitha Allahu waallatee takhafoona nushoozahunna faAAithoohunna waohjuroohunna fee almadajiAAi waidriboohunna fa-in ataAAnakum fala tabghoo AAalayhinna sabeelan inna Allaha kana AAaliyyan kabeeran
Literal The men (are) taking care of matters for livelihood on (for) the women with what God preferred/favoured some of them (men and women) on some, and with what they spent from their (M) properties/possession , so the correct/righteous females are obeying humbly , worshipping humbly, protecting/safekeeping to the invisible with what God protected ; and those whom (F) you fear their (F) quarrel (disobedience) , so advise/warn them (F) and desert/abandon them (F) in the place of lying down (beds), and ignore/disregard/push them(F), so if they obeyed you, so do not oppress/transgress on them (F) a way/method, that God was/is high, mighty/great.
Ya Sin (Ya Sin, Ya-Seen) 3613
Waidrib lahum mathalan as-haba alqaryati ith jaaha almursaloona
Literal And give for them an example/proverb (of) the village's/urban city's owners/company, when the messengers came to them.al-Kahf (The Cave) 1832
Waidrib lahum mathalan rajulayni jaAAalna li-ahadihima jannatayni min aAAnabin wahafafnahuma binakhlin wajaAAalna baynahuma zarAAan
Literal And give for them an example/proverb (of) two men, We made/created to one of them two treed gardens from grapes, and We surrounded/encircled them (B) with palm trees, and We made/put between them (B) plants/crops.
Not a step approach (1st, 2nd, 3rd) rather an (if then else) ?attitude? basically...
Refuse sex thus set forth/show them an example or simply ignore them and go on a sex strike! >(
az-Zumar (The Troops, Throngs, The Companies) 3918
Allatheena yastamiAAoona alqawla fayattabiAAoona ahsanahu ola-ika allatheena hadahumu Allahu waola-ika hum oloo al-albabi
Literal Those who hear/listen (to) the word/opinion and belief so they follow its best, those are, those whom God guided them, and those, they are (owners) of the pure minds/hearts.Peace
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Peace
But I would be interested to hear how members of this forum explain Verse 34 of Sura an-Nisa?
apart from the traditional beat meaning, the more recent leave meaning, and the amazing make love with them meaning, I find significant what Wakas pointed out somewhere in the forum, that the verse is about an hypothetical situation, not about something really happened. "If you fear ..."
Anyway, of course I reject the beat meaning completely, never mind if the quran really says that or not.
Clarification if needed, I am not muslim.
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Nobody on the "beat" side - people of hadeeth + others - has answered this question.
Why does the Quran not give a distinct crime for this distinct punishment (i.e. beating)? We are told to lash x100 for public sex, amputate/cut off means for theft, and so on, but why no actual crime here? Why does it not specify a quantitative degree of moderation for this punishment? To lash x100, or halve or double the punishment, for instance?
With reference, please.
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If women are disloyal, Quran has proposed following line of action to men
1- admonish them
2- stop sleeping with them
3- hit themIf men are disloyal, could some one tell me in the light of Quran what should they do?
Hello,
Can you explain the above discrepancy BEFORE asking this question? Does beating even stand up?
The punishment for homosexuality is equal between sexes, which is interesting.
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Hello,
Can you explain the above discrepancy BEFORE asking this question? Does beating even stand up?
The punishment for homosexuality is equal between sexes, which is interesting.
Beating is more like lots of hitting.
As far as I know "darab" means a "hit".
I would say Quran is saying "hit them" or "smack them". Shouldn't we assume "one smack" since the number has not been proposed.
If I say "smack him" that means I am asking you to smack him only once.
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Beating is more like lots of hitting.
As far as I know "darab" means a "hit".
I would say Quran is saying "hit them" or "smack them". Shouldn't we assume "one smack" since the number has not been proposed.
If I say "smack him" that means I am asking you to smack him only once.
No, we should not "assume" any smacks -- this contradicts the rest of Qur'an.
an-Nisa' (Women) 434 waidriboohunna -- and give an example to them.
Why not go on SEX STRIKE and "show" them or "give an example" to them per verses posted?
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_strike
Ya Sin (Ya Sin, Ya-Seen) 3613
Waidrib lahum mathalan as-haba alqaryati ith jaaha almursaloona
Literal And give for them an example/proverb (of) the village's/urban city's owners/company, when the messengers came to them. -
Which verse are you referring here? 416?
Yes. Equal punishment.
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Nobody on the "beat" side - people of hadeeth + others - has answered this question.
Why does the Quran not give a distinct crime for this distinct punishment (i.e. beating)? We are told to lash x100 for public sex, amputate/cut off means for theft, and so on, but why no actual crime here? Why does it not specify a quantitative degree of moderation for this punishment? To lash x100, or halve or double the punishment, for instance?
With reference, please.
According to Imam Shafii, a man is not supposed to hit his wife according to the way he understood this Aya. Imam Shafii based it on a hadeeth that was said by the prophet the day after the Aya was revealed. The women came complaining and the prophet said "The men who hit their wives are not better than the men who did not". Also Shafii based his opinion on the fact that the prophet did never hit anyone except in war.
So Shafii concluded that while the Aya gives permission to hit, it is not required nor liked and probably hated, but forms the maximum limit of punishment.
Source, Tafsir Al Razi of the same Aya.
Notice how Shafii did not play the linguistic acrobatics as you guys do. It does not help here. He however, based it on his wider understanding of what WAW= and means in Arabic and on the hadeeth, that you hate.
Take care all
Hussein
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I'm sorry, but there is very little linguistic acrobatics in my argument. It is very simple. Why is there a discrepancy here when 482 states that the only discrepancy in the whole Quran is in 482 itself? Why is it disproportionate, can you answer that? I do not care whether X said that Y said that Z said that a Quranic order is to be disregarded, because anyone saying such a thing and simultaneously claiming to be Muslim is nothing but a hypocrite and a liar, and this is exceedingly clear regardless of the side of the fence you are on. If Imam Shafii did indeed say a Quranic order should be disregarded, he is kaffir, and nothing more. Of course, he didn't, I assume.
So when the proponents of S&M care to show where quantitative moderation is enjoined on the punishment in a similar method to lashing limitations, and also show why there is such a discrepancy in the Quran, can they beat their wives to their hearts content.
Also, please detail where Holy Huzoor beat his wives, I am having trouble finding it. As far as I remember, he feared nushooz on the part of his wives who decided to conspirate against him, and he abandoned them for 30 days, never beating them. My source for this is "Ar-Raheeq Al-Makhtum"/"The Sealed Nectar" written by Safiur-Rahman Al-Mubarakpuri, of the Islamic University Al-Madinah Al-Munawwarah, under supervision of Abdul Malik Miujahid, published by Darussalam, assigned First Prize in a worldwide competition in 1979, the revision being of the year 2002. Unless God wills otherwise, I will write the full page reference as I find it, with time.
So, please show me where Huzoor, described as "the light of this world" and "he who the universe was created for" (Source Summarized Sahih Al-Bukhari by Al-Imam Zain-Ud-Din Ahmad bin Abdul-Lateef Az-Zubaidi, translation by Dr Muhammad Muhsin Khan, rest of the reference is in line with above) beat his wives.
i]With reference, please. More questions to come later.
Edit I am sorry. My summarized Bukhari (more detailed than the Quran, by far) did not detail this fine gem, nor did "The Sealed Nectar" as far as I am aware.
Book 009, Number 3506
Jabir b. 'Abdullah (Allah be pleased with them) reported Abu Bakr (Allah be pleased with him) came and sought permission to see Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him). He found people sitting at his door and none amongst them had been granted permission, but it was granted to Abu Bakr and he went in. Then came 'Umar and he sought permission and it was granted to him, and he found Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) sitting sad and silent with his wives around him.
He (Hadrat 'Umar) said I would say something which would make the Holy Prophet (may peace be upon him) laugh, so he said Messenger of Allah, I wish you had seen (the treatment meted out to) the daughter of Khadija when you asked me some money, and I got up and slapped her on her neck. Allah's Messenger (mav peace be upon him) laughed and said They are around me as you see, asking for extra money. Abu Bakr (Allah be pleased with him) then got up went to 'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) and slapped her on the neck, and 'Umar stood up before Hafsa and slapped her saying You ask Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) which he does not possess. They said By Allah, we do not ask Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) for anything he does not possess. Then he withdrew from them for a month or for twenty-nine days.
Then this verse was revealed to him" Prophet Say to thy wives... for a mighty reward" (xxxiii. 2. He then went first to 'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) and said I want to propound something to you, 'A'isha, but wish no hasty reply before you consult your parents. She said Messenger of Allah, what is that? He (the Holy Prophet) recited to her the verse, whereupon she said Is it about you that I should consult my parents, Messenger of Allah? Nay, I choose Allah, His Messenger, and the Last Abode; but I ask you not to tell any of your wives what I have said He replied Not one of them will ask me without my informing her. God did not send me to be harsh, or cause harm, but He has sent me to teach and make things easy.
Imam Shafii is wrong.
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If I may ask you to think hypothetically for a moment.
If you discovered that 'udruboohunna' did mean 'beat them' or 'hit them' or 'smack them' would it make you disbelieve in the Qur'an?
Or would it make no difference to you?
It would make a huge difference yes...
I'll repost again, the meanings of 'daraba' in al-quran;
- To travel, to get out 3156; 4101; 3844; 7320; 2273
- To strike 260,73; 7160; 812; 2077; 2431; 2663; 3793; 474
- To beat 850; 4727
- To set up 4358; 5713
- To give (examples) 1424,45; 1675,76,112; 1832,45; 2435; 3028,58; 3678; 3927,29; 4317; 5921; 6610,11
- To take away, to ignore 435
- To condemn 261
- To seal, to draw over 1811
- To cover 2431
- To explain 1317
That means that you have to choose the meaning that is the most logical, and fits the best in the context, using proper grammar. Maybe some of you need to re-read 37 again and again to get the point across
hadeeth, that you hate.
Nice try...Not many here hate all hadeeth, but most hadeeth because they are insulting to muhammad portraying him as a terrorist, a pedophile etc...
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This is how think about it
To be very logical, this ungraceful (or seemingly ungraceful) instruction is not a valid ground to say that Quran is not a word of God. It does add a slight bias though, however it does not prove anything. Issues that tops the ungraceful (or seemingly ungraceful) list are cutting hands, four marriages, permission to the prophet for more than four. On logical grounds they do not prove anything either. "Mistakes" are the only criteria that will prove that this is a man written book. Humans can make mistake. God cannot. Be them internal contradictions or contradiction with science.There are three kinds of people
1- Who rejects the book.
2- Who accepts the book on the face value with best meanings.
3- Who tries to tweak part of the book to make it more acceptable by inventing meanings.I want to be in group 1 or 2.
I think you and I think on similar lines.
You are also correct that this nor the other things you mention prove anything for certain. Though of course they have an influence over whether one believes it is the word of God.
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make love with them meaning
Sorry but that one nearly made me spit my tea over my keyboard.
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If women are disloyal, Quran has proposed following line of action to men
1- admonish them
2- stop sleeping with them
3- hit themIf men are disloyal, could some one tell me in the light of Quran what should women do?
4.128
"If a wife fears cruelty or desertion (Nushooz - the same word as in 434) on her husband's part, there is no blame on them if they arrange an amicable settlement between themselves; and such settlement is best; even though men's souls are swayed by greed. But if ye do good and practise self-restraint, Allah is well-acquainted with all that ye do."
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Notice how Shafii did not play the linguistic acrobatics as you guys do. It does not help here. He however, based it on his wider understanding of what WAW= and means in Arabic and on the hadeeth, that you hate.
Take care all
Hussein
Dear hlatif
I have always found your posts very rational.As far as your perception about "linguisitic acrabatics" is concerned ,I will call it "linguistic somersault" because acrobatics even then makes some sense.
What can you expect out of that group who doe not know the difference between- To give the book
-To teach the book
they consider these phrases synonymous.
- To give the book
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Salaam OPF,
I do not know if you read my post or not. This is what I posted regarding the prophet hitting people
Shafii based his opinion on the fact that the prophet did never hit anyone except in war.
As for the hadeeth that you posted, it does not say that the prophet hit anyone. It said that Umar did, and that is business between a father and daughter. Umar did not hit her because her husband wanted him to do so. The hadeeth did not say that.
As for 482 and the issue of changing meanings of words, then that reveals your ignorance. Here some rules for you
1- Words are conceptual. They become specific according to the context and the context then allows you to narrow the meaning or widen it. So, the context has a say in the meaning.
2- Many words change meanings when they are followed by AAan and this is when Daraba actually means move away stop. The absence of AAan makes move away or stop very very unlikely.
Source books of grammar as in sibaweh.
I will end that you guys end up with lots of contradictions and that is why you end up suppressing some meanings of the Qur'an "obey the mesenger" or making them totally different as in making "teach" mean give. The list is too long to post here.
Hussein
Hussein
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Peace
Sorry but that one nearly made me spit my tea over my keyboard.
It's Ahmed Ali translation.
434. Men are the support of women as God gives some more means than others, and because they spend of their wealth (to provide for them). So women who are virtuous are obedient to God and guard the hidden as God has guarded it. As for women you feel are averse, talk to them suasively; then leave them alone in bed (without molesting them) and go to bed with them (when they are willing). If they open out to you, do not seek an excuse for blaming them. Surely God is sublime and great.
