Hitting One's Wife.

cosmicdancer

talk to them suasively; then leave them alone in bed (without molesting them) and go to bed with them (when they are willing)

Good luck to you if you believe that is what it says.

BTW - Who is Ahmed Ali?

unknownuser

Hitting your wife to solve any kind of problem is pure nonsense. As a human being I have better options then to hit another human being and especially if the other human being happens to be my wife hitting is out of question. If husband and wife are unable to resolve any problem the option of divorce is always open then why to hit?

Elena

Peace

Good luck to you if you believe that is what it says.

BTW - Who is Ahmed Ali?

I don't believe anyhting, I don't know what it says. I mentioned the three meanings I have come across reading about islam.

Following the explanation I found at webislam.com, Ahmed Ali bases his translation on the quranic comentarist Zamakhsari and the philologist el Lisan al-Arab de Raghib who affirms the verb daraba can have the metaphoric meaning of having sexual relations quoting the Arabic expression 'daraba al-fahl al-naqah', the male camel copulates with the female camel. The most strange is that Raghib gives , exactly, 434 as example.

You can find info about Ahmed Ali on the net. I knew about him first at webislam, then I saw his translation at studyquran Wakas' site.

explorer

4.128

"If a wife fears cruelty or desertion (Nushooz - the same word as in 434) on her husband's part, there is no blame on them if they arrange an amicable settlement between themselves; and such settlement is best; even though men's souls are swayed by greed. But if ye do good and practise self-restraint, Allah is well-acquainted with all that ye do."

Thanks for quoting me the appropriate verse.

unknownuser

Thank you.

May I ask - are you a Muslim?

How does this verse impact upon your faith?
Glad to have read your posts, 'cosmicdancer'. Like the title, btw.

I am an ex-Muslim (if Muslim is the title), a naturalist and a "believer".

The verse in question (434) is not the only one that has impacted and displaced my faithhead. There are just too many factors and circumstances that leaped-in and leaped-out from early-hood onwards that swayed my gradual thinking pattern and lifestyle towards where I am today. Needless to say, it has never been easy and have felt the challenge to find myself outside the "pandora box" looking down at my surroundings in a more realistic and clearer settings. From an unbiased, logical reasoning and considering the internal/external factors, with due respect and beg to state that I consider the Quran for what it is....an ancient book (nothing less and a little more). Then comes the reading part, later the specifics and finally the discussions, all "neatly" packaged in my vast yet tiny mind.

I will confess one thing for sure, that over the years and as much as recent, I've found that every human is a fascinating one in person (and so are flowers, bees, tigers, water, sunshine, etc.) until the "God" and the "holy book" notion kicks in and that is when the trouble begins.

One Trouble Trouble, When Trouble Troubles One.

Hope to hear more from you. )

Navid

I will confess one thing for sure, that over the years and as much as recent, I've found that every human is a fascinating one in person (and so are flowers, bees, tigers, water, sunshine, etc.) until the "God" and the "holy book" notion kicks in and that is when the trouble begins.

How do you mean?

Not posing the question in an argumentative sense, just wondering.

Peace

Leoxyz

Peace

I don't believe anyhting, I don't know what it says. I mentioned the three meanings I have come across reading about islam.

Following the explanation I found at webislam.com, Ahmed Ali bases his translation on the quranic comentarist Zamakhsari and the philologist el Lisan al-Arab de Raghib who affirms the verb daraba can have the metaphoric meaning of having sexual relations quoting the Arabic expression 'daraba al-fahl al-naqah', the male camel copulates with the female camel. The most strange is that Raghib gives , exactly, 434 as example.
You can find info about Ahmed Ali on the net. I knew about him first at webislam, then I saw his translation at studyquran Wakas' site.

Dear sister/Alena
I am happy that I am seeing some post with some references.That is appreciable.
Look at my highlighted sentences.Now first part of your sentence about camel copulation is there ,but I am unable to find that "Raghib gives the exmple of aya 434.

The actual aya is

Raghib's Description is

} { } { } { } { } { } { . . } { } { } { } { } { } { } { } { . } { } { } { } { } { } { } { } { .

. . .

I am an non-arabic,I might have missed that aya (434) as an example in it.
please just highlight that "example" and post it back.
Thanks

cosmicdancer

Ahmed Ali bases his translation on the quranic comentarist Zamakhsari

Zamakhshari says in his tafseer regarding "Udruboohunna" - and I quote

"It must be a light beating that does not injure nor break her bones and must avoid the face."

So if Ahmad Ali says he got his tafseer from Zamakhshari - then he seems to have got it badly wrong.

)

cosmicdancer

Glad to have read your posts, 'cosmicdancer'. Like the title, btw.

I am an ex-Muslim (if Muslim is the title), a naturalist and a "believer".

The verse in question (434) is not the only one that has impacted and displaced my faithhead. There are just too many factors and circumstances that leaped-in and leaped-out from early-hood onwards that swayed my gradual thinking pattern and lifestyle towards where I am today. Needless to say, it has never been easy and have felt the challenge to find myself outside the "pandora box" looking down at my surroundings in a more realistic and clearer settings. From an unbiased, logical reasoning and considering the internal/external factors, with due respect and beg to state that I consider the Quran for what it is....an ancient book (nothing less and a little more). Then comes the reading part, later the specifics and finally the discussions, all "neatly" packaged in my vast yet tiny mind.

I will confess one thing for sure, that over the years and as much as recent, I've found that every human is a fascinating one in person (and so are flowers, bees, tigers, water, sunshine, etc.) until the "God" and the "holy book" notion kicks in and that is when the trouble begins.

One Trouble Trouble, When Trouble Troubles One.

Hope to hear more from you. )

I feel our journeys have been very similar.

Peace )

Leoxyz

Zamakhshari says in his tafseer regarding "Udruboohunna" - and I quote

"It must be a light beating that does not injure nor break her bones and must avoid the face."

So if Ahmad Ali says he got his tafseer from Zamakhshari - then he seems to have got it badly wrong.

)

If this highlighted word is correctly transliterated and present in Some Zamakhshari's writing ,then most probably this word does not exist in Arabic according to my humble knowledge.
Zamakhshari is and authority on arabic lexicon.

cosmicdancer

If this highlighted word is correctly transliterated and present in Some Zamakhshari's writing ,then most probably this word does not exist in Arabic according to my humble knowledge.
Zamakhshari is and authority on arabic lexicon.

I didn't understand that post?

Did you read the quote I gave from Zamakhsharis Tafseer.

His tafseer is one of my favourites. I have it right here and started a Phd on it back in 1985 and translated about a quater of it.

It clearly explains this verse as meaning hitting - nothing else.

I find it quite pathetic how many people can't face the truth.

But good luck to all those who want to change "Hit" into "leave", "Have Sex" "dance a jig" "stand on one leg and say Ne Ne Ne!" or any other nonsense.

I prefer to face the truth.

)

Leoxyz

I didn't understand that post?

Did you read the quote I gave from Zamakhsharis Tafseer.

His tafseer is one of my favourites. I have it right here and started a Phd on it back in 1985 and translated about a quater of it.

It clearly explains this verse as meaning hitting - nothing else.

I find it quite pathetic how many people can't face the truth.

But good luck to all those who want to change "Hit" into "leave", "Have Sex" "dance a jig" "stand on one leg and say Ne Ne Ne!" or any other nonsense.

I prefer to face the truth.

)

Dear
I have said that the word "Udruboohunna" which you have used does not exist in arabic literature according to my very primitive knowledge.How can Zamakhshari use it?? .

If it had been "Idhriboohunna" I would have accepted.You said in you introduction that you are qualified in arabic .

You said

For the next twenty eight years I was devout and committed to Islam. I completed a BA in Arabic and Islamic Studies at the University of *******, became President of the Islamic Society, was Amir of a Da?wah group and edited its magazine ? ?The *******? ? wrote four books for Muslims and spent fifteen years as a teacher at a Muslim school.

warner

Salaam

The derivatives from the root daraba are used by interpreters, translators etc to mean beat, strike without giving a second thought. Please read the following link on the topic "2431 strike their feet or separating/parting their legs"
to find one such example. What is interesting here is not only the meaning of the word is distorted but the accompanying fabricated story of Jahiliya women wearing little bells in their feet which makes a sound when they walk, to explain the misunderstood word and the verse.

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=11995.0

warner

Peace

According to my understanding using cross reference of nushuz the meaning can be assembling, gathering, coming together. Both 434 and 4128 uses this word.I think in 434 the word is used with the meaning where 2 or more wives get together (assembling, ganging up/teaming up) against their husband as in 663-5 and in 4128 the husband teams up with one wife neglecting the other. The continuity of this meaning is clear when we look at 4129.

In 434 faced with the above circumstances if advising and deserting from the bed does not yield results the verse instructs the husband to separate the wives concerned wadribu_hunna/separate them). Its possible the 2 or more wives live in the same house or close proximity. So a physical separation or even any distance between the wives who are teaming up against the husband will reduce the collusion.

Please add your thoughts.

unknownuser

The Word Da-ra-ba in quran http//www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/ArabChristian30907.htm

I've read many articles presented by several well known interpreters/translators of the word idrib to mean beat/strike/smite and naturally by a few apologists (especially Quran aloners), but the link above tops them all; well defined, explained and fully detailed as per their contexts. Other than that, I've read number of ahadith proclaiming the same, including the historicity and nature of wife beating as a final resort. The "beating/striking/smiting" part is also evident in other parts of the Quran 812, 850, 474, 4727, to name a few.

cosmicdancer

Dear
I have said that the word "Udruboohunna" which you have used does not exist in arabic literature according to my very primitive knowledge.How can Zamakhshari use it?? .

If it had been "Idhriboohunna" I would have accepted.You said in you introduction that you are qualified in arabic .

You said

I do speak, read and write Arabic and have a 1st class honours degree in Arabic - thanks

Please forgive me - it is not udruboohunna but as you say Idhriboohunna or with the waw wadriboohunna

Now...

Did you read what Zamakhshari said? (the guy Ahmad Ali apparently uses for his translation).

"It must be a light beating that does not injure nor break her bones and must avoid the face."

Why do you think all the scholars for 1400 years have clearly all agreed it says "hit them" ?

And why is it only today that a handful of modern Muslims who find wife hitting a very uncomfortable thing to believe in - have suddenly discovered the real truth about what this passage means?

Leoxyz

OK - please forgive me - The verse in question - the bit where it says wadriboohunna... which some nasty people translate as; then hit them... is that OK?

Now...

Did you read what Zamakhshari said?

Dear
No problem .you are welcome.
I am not in debate with you about the meaning of this word.

Navid

I do speak, read and write Arabic and have a 1st class honours degree in Arabic - thanks

Please forgive me - it is not udruboohunna but as you say Idhriboohunna or with the waw wadriboohunna

Now...

Did you read what Zamakhshari said? (the guy Ahmad Ali apparently uses for his translation).

"It must be a light beating that does not injure nor break her bones and must avoid the face."

Why do you think all the scholars for 1400 years have clearly all agreed it says "hit them" ?

And why is it only today that a handful of modern Muslims who find wife hitting a very uncomfortable thing to believe in - have suddenly discovered the real truth about what this passage means?

You have a point, but the majority is not always right

Similar to the salat/zakat issue

unknownuser

Why do you think all the scholars for 1400 years have clearly all agreed it says "hit them" ?

And why is it only today that a handful of modern Muslims who find wife hitting a very uncomfortable thing to believe in - have suddenly discovered the real truth about what this passage means?

Same reason Christian scholars conformed to the idea of slavery and "Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection? and Pope is the infallible proxy of God on earth. In addition, non conformance or even hinting at a new interpretation may get them killed.

Thus a line of parrots parroting other parrots due out of fear and personal gain.

Today people have the anonymity to speak their mind and research for themselves. Really makes no difference to me how many parrots in the world; important is that one is convinced and the verse makes perfect sense as?

434?.and those whom you fear their quarrel, so advise them and desert them in the place of lying down, and show them, so if they obeyed you, so do not transgress on them?

1424, 1445; 1675, 1676, 16112; 1832, 1845; 2435; 3028, 3058; 3678; 3927,3929; 4317; 5921; 6610, 6611

This is the ?example? deceptively/cleverly avoided by the Christian Arab in article. Most think women only use sex as tool to get what they want ? not true, it works both ways and women may enjoy it even more so. lol

People read the Qur?an in interpret in different ways to suite their agenda

Christian extremists, Hadithist fanatics, anti-Islamists, etc. are basically same?
1111 Perish the hands of the Father of Flame! Perish he!

Then will he be of those who believe, and enjoin patience, (constancy, and self-restraint), and enjoin deeds of kindness and compassion.

Peace

cosmicdancer