Hitting One's Wife.
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Peace,
To cosmicdancer If you have problem with "hit them" then there are many other worse scenarios in Quran with violence included. Like you shall lash the adulterer and adultress in public. How you look upon that?
Majidah
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Peace Cosmicdancer
What is the meaning of nushuz in 434?
Literally it means things like "protruding/spreading out" and so is usually translated in this verse as "Rebellion/disobedience" - which I find quite adequate.
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Peace,
To cosmicdancer If you have problem with "hit them" then there are many other worse scenarios in Quran with violence included. Like you shall lash the adulterer and adultress in public. How you look upon that?
Majidah
I have a problem with all that stuff.
That's why I don't believe the Qur'an is God's word.
)
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peace cosmicdancer,
Wakas on Yesterday at 105110 AM
It seems you have not understood the basic wording of the verse in question. Where do you get "let them carry on rebelling" from?Have you read 434?
Fine - then please tell me what it means - thanks
It is not a question of what it means, forget about "idribuhunnna" for a moment. It is a question of you not even appreciating what 434 says, yet reaching a conclusion on it!
I repeat where do you get "let them carry on rebelling" from?
I suggest you re-read 434.
If after this, you genuinely have no clue what I'm referring to (even though its been stated in this very thread) I will clarify.
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I repeat where do you get "let them carry on rebelling" from?
Woah... keep calm.
It was one of the things I was trying to guess what some people might think. I don't think it means that myself.
I was asking those people who think it means "Leave Them" to explain what that means and I gave some examples of what that might mean - that was simply my conjecture about what they might say.
Look here is my post again
For those who say the verse says "Leave them" - what does that mean?
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Divorce them?
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Abandon them?
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Let them carry on rebelling?
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Something else - What?
Personally I don't believe it means ANY of these things.
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Peace Cosmicdancer
What is the meaning of nushuz in 434?
sorry to but in , after a detailed scrutiny of the word Nashooz in quran i think that this word conveys one off /all off the following meanings,
illtreatment, to look down upon, to care two hoots about, thinking of other person not worthy of ones status,having a damn care attitude,persisting with a humiliating attitude and hence creating a situation for other party where he/she is unable to carry on in a healthy relationship.
It does not mean adultry.
siki
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It does not mean adultry.
siki
Definitely not.
That is a quite seperate act.
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Literally it means things like "protruding/spreading out" and so is usually translated in this verse as "Rebellion/disobedience" - which I find quite adequate.
Salaam C'dancer
Then Nushuz actually is a strange word since it has both the opposite meanings ?spreading out? and ?coming together?.
Separate them so as to mean distance the 2 wives is not linguistically incorrect and does not contradict the verse. 4128 and 129 communicates a similar situation.
I still think in 2259, 4128 and 5811 the uniform meaning is assembling, coming together or drawing together. So if two people (wives in verse 434) draw themselves together against the husband it makes sense to ?separate them or distance them?.
Salaam Siki
The Quran does not give any of the meanings you conveyed for nushuz. In 2259 it has to be "assemble the bones".
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Salaam C'dancer
Then Nushuz actually is a strange word since it has both the opposite meanings spreading out and coming together?.
Separate them so as to mean distance the 2 wives is not linguistically incorrect and does not contradict the verse. 4128 and 129 communicates a similar situation.
I still think in 2259, 4128 and 5811 the uniform meaning is assembling, coming together or drawing together. So if two people (wives in verse 434) draw themselves together against the husband it makes sense to ?separate them or distance them?.
Salaam Siki
The Quran does not give any of the meanings you conveyed for nushuz. In 2259 it has to be "assemble the bones".
There is a slight possibility of "separating the multiple wives theory" to be true, however then, if we take the meanings of nashooz as "coming together ", then what happens in case of husband's naushooz?
How i managed to reach the above conclusion regarding Naushooz ? i shall discuss later. Meanwhile i suggest that you check all the occurrences, and tell me what exactly in your opinion this word is suppose to convey.
siki
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There is a slight possibility of "separating the multiple wives theory" to be true, however then, if we take the meanings of nashooz as "coming together ", then what happens in case of husband's naushooz?
How i managed to reach the above conclusion regarding Naushooz ? i shall discuss later. Meanwhile i suggest that you check all the occurrences, and tell me what exactly in your opinion this word is suppose to convey.
siki
Salaam Siki
I do not think disobedience is one of the meanings for nushuz.
Husbands nushuz is in where the husband comes together or draws himself together with one wife and neglects the other. This makes more sense if you read 4128-129.
I believe 2259 is the best verse to understand nushuz meaning ?assemble? the bones (see below)
The following is some of the meanings from Lanes. I have not posted the complete detail but what is only consistent with the meaning I believe projected in the Quran I think the rest of the meanings are from misunderstanding of the meaning of the word as rising and obedience.
The people drew themselves together???..
He rose with the people for purpose of contention????..
He raised the bones of the dead to their places, set them or put them together one upon another.
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Warner
salam, I rechecked, and i standby to my original understanding in a previous post regarding naushooz.
Here is what lane says,
Nun-Shiin-Zay = to be high, lifted up, rise up, behave ill, be disobedient, ill treat, be rebellious, hate, detest, be indifferent, treat unjustly, be unkind, desert.
nashaza vb. (1)
impv. 5811, 5811
n.vb. 434, 4128anshaza vb. (4) impf. act. 2259
I think , the wives banding together, theory is incorrect, Generally the wives would never band together against their husbands, The inference you are drawing from 2-259 is probably from a wrong translation.
The bones are not coming together, but , "Are being raised"
God would probably not issue separate instructions(4-34) for a rare phenomena (multiple wives, and then those wives coming together and conspiring against the husband) ???
siki
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Warner
salam, I rechecked, and i standby to my original understanding in a previous post regarding naushooz.
Here is what lane says,
Nun-Shiin-Zay = to be high, lifted up, rise up, behave ill, be disobedient, ill treat, be rebellious, hate, detest, be indifferent, treat unjustly, be unkind, desert.
nashaza vb. (1)
impv. 5811, 5811
n.vb. 434, 4128anshaza vb. (4) impf. act. 2259
I think , the wives banding together, theory is incorrect, Generally the wives would never band together against their husbands, The inference you are drawing from 2-259 is probably from a wrong translation.
The bones are not coming together, but , "Are being raised"
God would probably not issue separate instructions(4-34) for a rare phenomena (multiple wives, and then those wives coming together and conspiring against the husband) ???
siki
Salaam Siki
Bones are not ?raised? but ?assembled?
Generally the wives would never band together against their husbands
Please check 663-5
We are not to judge what God treats as a rare phenomenon. How many of us come across people marrying their adopted sons ex wives?
Please check Lanes again for these meanings too. (I have not included the full detail)
The people drew themselves together???..
He rose with the people for purpose of contention????..
He (God) raised the bones of the dead to their places, set them or put them together one upon another.
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume8/00000049.pdf
So still Beat them/strike them /Hit them? Or separate them as I have explained.
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Peace siki
Generally the wives would never band together against their husbands
unless it is that they cannot band against husband (having only one) what do you mean ?
Intelligent women work together against the oppressor without him even realizing it ...
peace
lk -
Quote from lane
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume8/00000049.pdf
Ishbk,
TA,) ioJ.l ;j, (S, i,) or t jj 1is y; ,
(A, Mgh, TA,) or Yij &, , (Msb,) and I.-r,
(TA,) aor. - and , inf. n. ,L, (S, Msb, K,)
The n.omnan, or nwife, wns, or became, disobedient
to her husband, (S, Mgh, M9b, K,) and exalted
herself ogainst him, (TA,) and resisted him, or
iwithstood him, (Mob,) and hated him, (S, Mgli,
.,) and deserted him (TA or she disliked him,
or hated him, (Zj, MghI, TA,) and nwas an eril
companion to him. (Zj, TA And ~ j2.
.kl, (S, A, 1~,) or t.o, aor. - and -, (Msb,)
int n. jgz , (TA,) 1 Ier husband treated her
inju-iou.sly, and was unkind to her, or estranged
hi,s.,cf .ronm her (S, 1 or forsook her, and
was unkind to her, or estranyed hi,imril'fi.om her
(Msbl or dislihked her, or hatcd her, (Zj, MIgh,
TA,) and nas an evil companeion to her. (Zj,
TA.)
4. ? ji2l lie raised it, (A, Msb, K,) namely,
a iplace, (Mgb,) or a thing, (li,) from its place.
(A, K.) _- ; IlU j lie
raised the bones of the dead to their places, and
set them, or put them together, one upon another.
(S, K.) So in the Kur, '1 ? .Jl /'ij'
.J la2 A~,j ; , accord.
to the reading of Zeyd Ibn-Tlihbit; (Fr, S,* TA
hut thle Koofees rend r.] with ra the
former readingt, hlowever, accord. to Tl, is preterreed.
(TA.) nce also,
,~. U5tl _..i TThe sucking of the breast
infcreased, or atymented, the bone as also a4.I,
with ra. (Msb.)salam warner
Above is from the link you quoted from lane, i think it is pretty clear that Nashooz is what i have been describing in my posts.
Salaam Siki
Bones are not ?raised? but ?assembled?
Ya! you can say that, but when one has the raw material , and something new is made out of it , probably raising would be a better word. Assembly conveys different meanings. we raise the foundations of a house , from raw material, saying "Assembling the house" is probably inappropriate.
same way, God is saying that I raise the bones from raw material and then i clothe them with flesh.
Please check 663-5
66-3,5 is actually an argument against your perception, here the prophet's wives banded together, but the word used is "tazhara" not Nashuaz.
66-4 If the two of you repent to GOD, then your hearts have listened. But if you band together (Tazharan) against him, then GOD is his ally, and so is Gabriel and the righteous believers. Also, the angels are his helpers.
peace
siki
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Salaam Siki
Tazhara(ZHR) you quoted from 664 means support/assist/help
it is not "raising against someone or coming together against someone".Za-ha-Ra
zahara vb. (1)
perf. act. 6151, 733, 948, 2431, 3041
impf. act. 98, 1820, 1897, 2431, 4333
pcple. act. 6120, 1333, 1822, 307, 3120, 3418, 4029, 573, 5713, 6114
zahir n.m. 1788, 2555, 2817, 2886, 3422, 664
zahirah n.f. 2458
zahr n.m. (pl. zuhur) - 2101, 2189, 3187, 631, 694, 6138, 6146, 7172, 935, 2139, 3545, 4233, 4313, 8410, 943
zihri n.m. 1192
zahara vb. (3)
perf. act. 3326, 609
impf. act. 94, 334, 582, 583
azhara vb. (4)
perf. act. 663
impf. act. 933, 3018, 4026, 4828, 619, 7226
tazahara vb. (6)
perf. act. 2848, 664
impf. act. 285http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume5/00000211.pdf
Please read Lanes carefully again you will find all the meaning I posted previously.
Bones are joined, fixed, assembled not raised. The people who did not understand verses such as 434 and 4128 created falsified word meanings. Just like Hadeeth books Lexicons are full of word meanings originating from fabricated stories and misunderstood verses. But if you look carefully and check with the use in the Quran you will notice these manipulations
I can not still fathom ?obedient husbands? 4128 and worse ?if you fear desertion from your Wives HIT THEM? 434
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So still Beat them/strike them /Hit them? Or separate them as I have explained.
Salaam warner and siki
Just great! If not beat her, seperate them! Either one wife and she is toast, or if it is not "beat her up", it is polygamy. What's wrong with you boys? Can't it be a NO No to polygamy AND a NO No to wife beating? Can't we have both?
