According to the quran, what is the lowest heaven?

Layth

Peace,

And here I thought Arnold was just confused in his strange interpretations of the Quran. Turns out Arnold was a hypocrite all this time pretending to be something he is not just to save` the poor lost Muslim souls and bring them to ? Christ?

No wonder you defend the US war machine so vehemently in your earlier posts...you are the same as them...you use lies and deceit and yet you dare lecture us on Islam and the Qur`an!

Here are some verses as a gift for you from the book you seem to hate

Chapter 2

And from the people are those who say We believe in God and in the Last Day, but they are not believers.
They seek to deceive God and those who believe, but they only deceive themselves without noticing.
In their hearts is a disease, so God increases their disease, and they will have a painful retribution for what they have denied.
And if they are told Do not make evil in the land, they say But we are the reformers!
No, they are the evildoers, but they do not perceive.
And if they are told Believe, as the people have believed, they say Shall we believe as the fools have believed? No, they are the fools but they do not know.
And if they come across those who have believed, they say We believe, and when they are alone with their devils they say We are with you, we were only mocking.
God mocks them, and leaves them prolonged in their transgression.
These are the ones who have purchased straying for guidance; their trade did not profit them, nor were they guided.

Arnold

Arnold, I see what you are saying. My next obvious question is if you are convinced then what are you doing in this forum? Are you attempting to prove to the Quranites that this book is not written by a God?

I have to be honest with you. I see dozens of things in the book that keeps me going; impossible for a human to write. Yet I see problems as well like paranormals. I will reach a final verdict once I complete the whole book. The issues where word games are involved (heavens, jinns etc) and where there are too many unknowns in the equations, ain't stopping me.

"ain't stopping me". ;D ;D So you are already on a determined course then, right? Looks like it to me. you're not speaking to me, you're just trying to play a trumpet. Allrightee then. Pretty funny.

Arnold

Peace,

And here I thought Arnold was just confused in his strange interpretations of the Quran. Turns out Arnold was a hypocrite all this time pretending to be something he is not just to save` the poor lost Muslim souls and bring them to ? Christ?

Where did I say that? Where did you imagine that? Please quote. Thanks. But I doubt you will, and I know why. Because it doesn't exist, and you are don't even understand the conversation. If you want to test what I'm saying to see if you are wrong or I am, then go back and find the word Christ in my posts.

No wonder you defend the US war machine so vehemently in your earlier posts...you are the same as them...you use lies and deceit and yet you dare lecture us on Islam and the Qur`an!

Quote the exact thing that I said, and tell me the lie. If it ends up being a lie, I can assure you that it was never meant to be one, as that has absolutely zero benefit to me. So go ahead. Present the supposed lie, tell me why you think it's a lie in clear, logical terms. I love new information, as long as it makes sense. I am not the government.

Here are some verses as a gift for you from the book you seem to hate

Chapter 2

And from the people are those who say We believe in God and in the Last Day, but they are not believers.
They seek to deceive God and those who believe, but they only deceive themselves without noticing.
In their hearts is a disease, so God increases their disease, and they will have a painful retribution for what they have denied.
And if they are told Do not make evil in the land, they say But we are the reformers!
No, they are the evildoers, but they do not perceive.
And if they are told Believe, as the people have believed, they say Shall we believe as the fools have believed? No, they are the fools but they do not know.
And if they come across those who have believed, they say We believe, and when they are alone with their devils they say We are with you, we were only mocking.
God mocks them, and leaves them prolonged in their transgression.
These are the ones who have purchased straying for guidance; their trade did not profit them, nor were they guided.

Yes, that's right. Allah has put a seal on my heart. So how can I possibly see the true path? Well, maybe I can pray to Allah to release the seal, but then, that wouldn't be much of a seal now, would it? I mean, what would the purpose of the seal be if I could just simply reverse Allah's seal? Makes it ineffectual. Kind of like....why was it applied in the first place? And then, after the seal is applied, who is responsible for future actions, the person or Allah?

unknownuser

This has me confused. If the heaven and earth were split apart, as this verse appears to clearly say..

Verse clearly says "We split/ruptured them" (i.e. both together) not split one from another, for they were not formed yet.

al-Anbiya' (The Prophets) 2130

Awa lam yara allatheena kafaroo anna alssamawati waal-arda kanata ratqan fafataqnahuma wajaAAalna mina alma-i kulla shay-in hayyin afala yu/minoona
Literal Did those who disbelieved not see that the skies/space and the earth/Planet Earth, they (B) were joined, so We split/ruptured them (B) , and We made/created from the water every thing alive/living, so do they not believe?

http//lifeboat.com/images/big.bang.jpg

Arnold

Have you read this thread? Please do so. Thank you. Sorry, not to be rude, but I hate repeating. Thanks.

unknownuser

al-Anbiya' (The Prophets) 2130

Awa lam yara allatheena kafaroo anna alssamawati waal-arda kanata ratqan fafataqnahuma wajaAAalna mina alma-i kulla shay-in hayyin afala yu/minoona
Literal Did those who disbelieved not see that the skies/space and the earth/Planet Earth, they (B) were joined, so We split/ruptured them (B) , and We made/created from the water every thing alive/living, so do they not believe?
How is it possible for the disbelievers to witness Big Bang when Muhammad, as allegedly claimed, was the only one secretly inspired by his god to claim as such (and that too by the Muslims of today)? The verse may be (possibly) pointing to a space/location on ground/land (fil ard) where the "prophets (We)" (Abraham, Ishmail, Issac, Hagar, Sarah, etc.) ruptured it to gush out water for the living/thirsty. Besides, this story is mentioned in the Torah, Bible and as well as the ahadith. (Read the story of Abraham and his family).

The image you provided was not available back then and it seems to be that of sun. Anyhow, the Big Bang is only a theory and Muslim apologists are the first to jump right into their ancient holy book to quickly claim any scientific findings evolved from modern science. Harun Yahya's website is full of such manipulated/twisted nonsense.

Arnold

Verse clearly says "We split/ruptured them" (i.e. both together) not split one from another, for they were not formed yet.

What does asunder mean? It means into separate things.

al-Anbiya' (The Prophets) 2130

Awa lam yara allatheena kafaroo anna alssamawati waal-arda kanata ratqan fafataqnahuma wajaAAalna mina alma-i kulla shay-in hayyin afala yu/minoona
Literal Did those who disbelieved not see that the skies/space and the earth/Planet Earth, they (B) were joined, so We split/ruptured them (B) , and We made/created from the water every thing alive/living, so do they not believe?

What does it mean when it says they were joined and then split? Can you be specific? In fact, I would like you to be very specific if you can. Afterall, you're the guy who posted it, right? So you must have some very specific reason and understanding for doing so, that you can share in a clear and specific way.

unknownuser

How is it possible for the disbelievers to witness Big Bang when Muhammad, as allegedly claimed, was the only one secretly inspired by his god to claim as such (and that too by the Muslims of today)? The verse may be (possibly) pointing to a space/location on ground/land (fil ard) where the "prophets (We)" (Abraham, Ishmail, Issac, Hagar, Sarah, etc.) ruptured it to gush out water for the living/thirsty. Besides, this story is mentioned in the Torah, Bible and as well as the ahadith. (Read the story of Abraham and his family).

The image you provided was not available back then and it seems to be that of sun. Anyhow, the Big Bang is only a theory and Muslim apologists are the first to jump right into their ancient holy book to quickly claim any scientific findings evolved from modern science. Harun Yahya's website is full of such manipulated/twisted nonsense.

Can you deny the latter part of the verse? No.

As for the first part, if it's like English, there is a difference between "see/recognize" and "witness/observe directly".

Arnold

Arnold, I see what you are saying. My next obvious question is if you are convinced then what are you doing in this forum? Are you attempting to prove to the Quranites that this book is not written by a God?

Sure.

I have to be honest with you. I see dozens of things in the book that keeps me going; impossible for a human to write. Yet I see problems as well like paranormals. I will reach a final verdict once I complete the whole book. The issues where word games are involved (heavens, jinns etc) and where there are too many unknowns in the equations, ain't stopping me.

Look, what you don't understand is that this book is completely useless unless Muslims admit that it is not the letter for letter dictation of God. Then, maybe I could reconsider it, and it could be considered along the same way as other religious texts are considered. But you don't understand. You will never get this admission from Muslims, because if the Quran isn't the letter for letter dictation of Allah, then there isn't much left to the religion after that. This is the way they have set it up, not me. And I feel that this is true. For while Muslims boast of the supposed superior logic and common sense behind it, the writings are actually spiritually bankrupt and conflict with the teachings of Jesus and other mystics in ways that the author (Muhammad) didn't understand. Muhammad appeared to be a man about a sense of justice that he felt, without any understanding of deeper meanings of spirituality and what past prophets were talking about.

unknownuser

Have you read this thread? Please do so. Thank you. Sorry, not to be rude, but I hate repeating. Thanks.

Name Arnold
Posts 57 (57 per day)
Position Beginner/Inquirer
Date Registered Yesterday at 070654 AM
Last Active Today at 064107 PM

Really, you hate repeating; with 57 posts/day?

Drama queens, saviors, rescuers, feigners and attention-seekers
http//www.bullyonline.org/workbully/attent.htm

What does asunder mean? It means into separate things.

What does it mean when it says they were joined and then split? Can you be specific? In fact, I would like you to be very specific if you can. Afterall, you're the guy who posted it, right? So you must have some very specific reason and understanding for doing so, that you can share in a clear and specific way.

http//www.quran-islam.org/universe.htm

How is it possible for the disbelievers to witness Big Bang when Muhammad, as allegedly claimed, was the only one secretly inspired by his god to claim as such (and that too by the Muslims of today)? The verse may be (possibly) pointing to a space/location on ground/land (fil ard) where the "prophets (We)" (Abraham, Ishmail, Issac, Hagar, Sarah, etc.) ruptured it to gush out water for the living/thirsty. Besides, this story is mentioned in the Torah, Bible and as well as the ahadith. (Read the story of Abraham and his family).

The image you provided was not available back then and it seems to be that of sun. Anyhow, the Big Bang is only a theory and Muslim apologists are the first to jump right into their ancient holy book to quickly claim any scientific findings evolved from modern science. Harun Yahya's website is full of such manipulated/twisted nonsense.

http//www.tolueislam.com/Parwez/expo/expo_021.htm

SURAH 21 Al-Anbiy?

"(Out of their sheer ignorance some people take natural phenomena as deities or divinities. This is despite the fact the entire continuum of the universe has been created by Allah and remains fervently in action according to His given programme. At present various phenomena in the universe appear to them as functioning separately from one another, but) Do they not seriously understand that in the initial stages of creation all of them were one mass which We then parted, so that the various celestial bodies started floating in their own orbits (2133; 3640). (Take for example the planet earth. In its initial stages it separated from the original mass, just like a stone thrown out from a catapult ~ 7930.) Later (when the earth became ready to bear or produce living things) We started life from water. (All living things are created from a mixture of water ~ 2445. And over this fountain of life Allah has kept His own control ~ 117.)

It is strange that even after all this explanation, they do not believe that only Allah wields absolute sovereignty over everything in the universe."

peace

Jack

Btw Genteel you should do the appropriate research before you make ridiculous statements. The big bang theory has physical evidence to back it up and is universally accepted among physicists.

unknownuser

http//www.tolueislam.com/Parwez/expo/expo_021.htm

It is strange that even after all this explanation, they do not believe that only Allah wields absolute sovereignty over everything in the universe."
And it is even stranger that the idiot who cherry-picked certain verses out of the Quran in that link above to disgrace and demean others didn't for once realize that his very own man-made god promises to keep his slaves and fellowship intact from straying away, yet he breaks his godly promise to shun the very slaves and fellowship as he so wills and subjects them to horrendous punishments akin to an evil. This man-made god is beyond recognition and himself does not know what the heck he is talking about. You see, even an evil person is merciful to his own family, relatives and close friends when it comes to forced submissions.

explorer

Look, what you don't understand is that this book is completely useless unless Muslims admit that it is not the letter for letter dictation of God. Then, maybe I could reconsider it, and it could be considered along the same way as other religious texts are considered.

Hello Arnold,

That is the only reason I am attracted to study this book. This is the only book that claims to be from God. If I conclude that this is not a God's word then I dont need a human written book to guide my life. I am better off without a book.

the writings are actually spiritually bankrupt and conflict with the teachings of Jesus and other mystics in ways that the author (Muhammad) didn't understand.

A logical point If Quran is not in harmony with Bible and other mystics then that does not necessarily make Quran false.

explorer

Thanks explorer for the warm welcome. welcome I'd like to know your opinion of my interpretation of heaven as the particle horizon (Boundary of the known universe).

Peaceful Mind, I just read about the particle horizon on the wikipedia.

http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Particle_horizon

Interesting concept.

However it would not explain the 7 heavens.

Peaceful_Mind

Peaceful Mind, I just read about the particle horizon on the wikipedia.

http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Particle_horizon

Interesting concept.

However it would not explain the 7 heavens.

May be there are 7 universes after all.

Peaceful_Mind

And it is even stranger that the idiot who cherry-picked certain verses out of the Quran in that link above to disgrace and demean others didn't for once realize that his very own man-made god promises to keep his slaves and fellowship intact from straying away, yet he breaks his godly promise to shun the very slaves and fellowship as he so wills and subjects them to horrendous punishments akin to an evil. This man-made god is beyond recognition and himself does not know what the heck he is talking about. You see, even an evil person is merciful to his own family, relatives and close friends when it comes to forced submissions.

You obviously do not know what the heck you are talking about. What's the mercy of God got to do with this topic? And of course, the Muslims twist the verses when it comes to miracles in the Quran, while the "peace-loving" and "honest" missionaries do not twist the verses to serve thier corrupted agenda. How pathetic.

Peaceful_Mind

Look, what you don't understand is that this book is completely useless unless Muslims admit that it is not the letter for letter dictation of God.

Do you not think the Bible is letter for letter dictation of God? I believe the Christians I have known think so.

unknownuser

However it would not explain the 7 heavens.

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=14637.0

You see, even an evil person is merciful to his own family, relatives and close friends when it comes to forced submissions.

Where you get definition of evil?

For all acts/thoughts can be justified in one?s mind; everyone has freedom to choose thier attitude or ?intent? to act (if permitted) on any ideas which pop into thier heads setting up thier own dominos of life continuously every moment...

http//video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7699005803996302162

peace

Arnold

Name Arnold
Posts 57 (57 per day)
Position Beginner/Inquirer
Date Registered Yesterday at 070654 AM
Last Active Today at 064107 PM

Really, you hate repeating; with 57 posts/day?

That's right, because they aren't repetitions.

Drama queens, saviors, rescuers, feigners and attention-seekers
http//www.bullyonline.org/workbully/attent.htm

Ad hominem always seems to be the answer of choice when one doesn't have an answer to the point.

http//www.quran-islam.org/universe.htm

What a lying piece of propaganda tripe. Boy, if I had the time, I'll rip this thing piece by piece. Here's an example of what these lying little propagandists do.

The orbits of the heavenly bodies are mentioned in the verse

"and the sun and the moon, all travelling in orbits." 2133

Note that the last verse said "all" and not 'both' which indicates that the reference to the sun and the moon is symbolic, that is, of all other heavenly bodies that obey the same rules.

Well, gee, how about if we look at the whole verse? Look at how he cleverly snipped off the first part of the verse

021.033
YUSUFALI It is He Who created the Night and the Day, and the sun and the moon all (the celestial bodies) swim along, each in its rounded course.
PICKTHAL And He it is Who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon. They float, each in an orbit.
SHAKIR And He it is Who created the night and the day and the sun and the moon; all (orbs) travel along swiftly in their celestial spheres.

and look at how even the translators had to add their own comments in parenthesis? But anyway, it sure looks a little different if we post the whole verse, but he purposefully did not do that. Why not? We both know why not.

http//www.tolueislam.com/Parwez/expo/expo_021.htm

SURAH 21 Al-Anbiy?

"(Out of their sheer ignorance some people take natural phenomena as deities or divinities. This is despite the fact the entire continuum of the universe has been created by Allah and remains fervently in action according to His given programme.

Complete assumption.

At present various phenomena in the universe appear to them as functioning separately from one another, but) Do they not seriously understand that in the initial stages of creation all of them were one mass which We then parted, so that the various celestial bodies started floating in their own orbits (2133; 3640).

He needs to include 2130. And 3640 talks about the sun and moon not being able to catch each other as if normally they could? Doesn't that sound like they are orbiting in the same general space to you? It sure as heck does to me. Seems pretty obvious. If we were in the 15th century, we would both be in agreement as to what this means. The only thing that has changed is modern science which cause him to reinterpret the Quran to make it fit. Do you call that objective truth seeking?

(Take for example the planet earth. In its initial stages it separated from the original mass, just like a stone thrown out from a catapult ~ 7930.) Later (when the earth became ready to bear or produce living things) We started life from water. (All living things are created from a mixture of water ~ 2445. And over this fountain of life Allah has kept His own control ~ 117.)

The Quran would have done a much better job if it said the earth was split from all of the other planets and stars. But it didn't. It split the earth and the heavens into two parts. One was the ground (the earth) and one was the sky (the heavens) as if the sky were a canopy of sorts, and actual physical entity of sorts. Surely the sky is different than the planets and stars that decorate the sky.

It is strange that even after all this explanation, they do not believe that only Allah wields absolute sovereignty over everything in the universe."

peace

It is strange that Muhammad merely took plainly observable physical laws and occurrences, and arbitrarily attributed them to his God. That's all the guy ever did in the whole Quran. He never really displayed any true wisdom, he just said a lot of "do they not see?" and hijacked all of the wonders of nature and attributed them to his particular God. Anybody can do that. The question is, why believe him?

peace

Arnold

Hello Arnold,

That is the only reason I am attracted to study this book. This is the only book that claims to be from God. If I conclude that this is not a God's word then I dont need a human written book to guide my life. I am better off without a book.
A logical point If Quran is not in harmony with Bible and other mystics then that does not necessarily make Quran false.

Yes true, but it pretends to be the completion of such things, when in fact, it's clear that it misunderstands such things. If you read certain mystics, you would know exactly what I'm talking about. As far as biblical tradition goes, Moses was the law maker for the beginning. Jesus was supposed to be the next evolution. Jesus was clearly a mystic, regardless of the Son of God stuff. If you know mystics, you'll recognize these concepts all over Jesus' words. But most people don't know these things, so they have a very difficult time understanding Jesus. And I believe Muhammad didn't understand him, because Muhammad generally returned the religion from mystic spirituality back to strict rules and regulations, and in an even more regulated fashion than Moses.

For example, Islam is clearly political. Muhammad thought that the religion of God must also be a political ruler as well as a religious ruler. But when we look at Jesus, he clearly separated his kingdom from anything political. "Give to Caesar what is his and give to God what is his". And now Muhammad comes along and reverses that and makes religion very political. Another example is when a guy asked Jesus to settle an inheritance dispute between him and his brother and Jesus said he did not come to settle such disputes. What he really meant is that they are silly and one shouldn't be so focused on money anyway and instead focus on the heart and soul. Remember, Jesus gave himself very little wealth. He simply didn't care about it. If anything, it just got in his way and was extra baggage to carry around. But then Muhammad sees this in the New Testament (or hears about it), and mistakenly perceives it as an unmet task that Jesus didn't have time to meet, and therefore sets about to create an entire convoluted system for splitting up inheritance money. And it turned out to be a flawed system where in some situations, the fractions ended up adding up to more than 100%. In order to fix this, Muslims reinvented a few rules of math and shifted the position of the math paragraphs to shift the order in which things are added up. For example 16 / (5 + 3) = 8 But (16 / 5) + 3 yields a different answer. This is how they covered the errors.