According to the quran, what is the lowest heaven?
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2130 Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?
Awalam yara allatheena kafaroo anna alssamawati waalarda kanata ratqan fafataqnahuma wajaAAalna mina almai kulla shayin hayyin afala yuminoona
This has me confused. If the heaven and earth were split apart, as this verse appears to clearly say, then I can't figure out what the lowest heaven is. It says the lowest heaven or the sky is adorned with stars, so it looks like the lowest heaven is the universe, but that can't be because the earth isn't separate from the universe, but rather is a part of it.
It can't be the stars themselves being separated from the earth because the stars decorate the lowest heaven or sky, and therefore are not the lowest heaven or sky itself. And yet clearly it tells us the earth and heavens were split, not the earth and stars.
It can't be the earth's atmosphere because that is not decorated with stars and it would mean the lowest heaven is transparent and then we can see the second heaven where Jesus lives or maybe even third heaven where Moses lives.
So far, the only thing that can make sense is if the lowest heaven or sky was a physical covering of some sort that was separated from the earth and raised above it. With that interpretation, suddenly all of the verses make absolute, perfect, simple sense. Crystal clear as the Quran was supposedly intended to be. It was given to us to make things clear, right? Seems pretty clear here.
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It says the lowest heaven or the sky is adorned with stars,
It was the perception/thouht of translators.
Grand Quran has nowhere said it that the lowest sky is adorned with stars; instead it has said that the lower sky is adorned with planets and comets. Earth and sky before being joined were seperate from each other, one solid mass and the sky was gaseous cluster. And then the sky was arranged in seven layers one above the other.
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It was the perception/thouht of translators.
Grand Quran has nowhere said it that the lowest sky is adorned with stars; instead it has said that the lower sky is adorned with planets and comets. Earth and sky before being joined were separate from each other, one solid mass and the sky was gaseous cluster. And then the sky was arranged in seven layers one above the other.
Planets? Aren't they outside of the earth's atmosphere just like stars are? So you really didn't make a distinction that ends up meaning anything. OK, so according to the Quran, isn't the sky decorated with the stars? So if the sky is decorated with the stars, then doesn't that make the sky the universe? Now, you said the earth and sky were separated. So, according to the Quran, what is the sky that was raised above the earth? Is it the universe? Is the earth separate from the universe? Maybe you might say that the Quran was talking about the earth separating from the stars, planets and other bodies, but that's not true. The stars and planets decorate an entity called the sky. So clearly, the sky is being treated as a physical covering of some sort that was literally raised above the earth.
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Dear Arnold,
Please first read about the stars and planets and find the difference between both. Please don't juxtapose your hotchpotch perception/knowledge about the atomosphere, sky, earth, stars and planets on the verses of Quran. Quran has very elaborately defined and distinguished the sky above the earth from the other six layers of sky above it.
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Dear Arnold,
Please first read about the stars and planets and find the difference between both. Please don't juxtapose your hotchpotch perception/knowledge about the atomosphere, sky, earth, stars and planets on the verses of Quran. Quran has very elaborately defined and distinguished the sky above the earth from the other six layers of sky above it.
What exactly do you mean? Please be specific. Where does the first sky begin and where does it end?
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2130 Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?
Awalam yara allatheena kafaroo anna alssamawati waalarda kanata ratqan fafataqnahuma wajaAAalna mina almai kulla shayin hayyin afala yuminoona
This has me confused. If the heaven and earth were split apart, as this verse appears to clearly say, then I can't figure out what the lowest heaven is. It says the lowest heaven or the sky is adorned with stars, so it looks like the lowest heaven is the universe, but that can't be because the earth isn't separate from the universe, but rather is a part of it.
It can't be the stars themselves being separated from the earth because the stars decorate the lowest heaven or sky, and therefore are not the lowest heaven or sky itself. And yet clearly it tells us the earth and heavens were split, not the earth and stars.
It can't be the earth's atmosphere because that is not decorated with stars and it would mean the lowest heaven is transparent and then we can see the second heaven where Jesus lives or maybe even third heaven where Moses lives.
So far, the only thing that can make sense is if the lowest heaven or sky was a physical covering of some sort that was separated from the earth and raised above it. With that interpretation, suddenly all of the verses make absolute, perfect, simple sense. Crystal clear as the Quran was supposedly intended to be. It was given to us to make things clear, right? Seems pretty clear here.
Hello Arnold,
My two cents
There are things that we know and things that we dont know. I put the heaven business in the second category.
Do you know what string theory is? This is the theory that most physicist and scientist believe to be the equation of the universe. Mathamatically it has proven to be correct; however they are still seeking some physical evidence (gravitons etc). If this theory is correct than there are 10 to 11 dimensions (x,y,z,time + 6 to 7 more) and hence 6 to 7 parallel universes. Parallel universes and string theory is the most spooky side of the science and physics. All parallel universes exit in the same space-time zone but we cannot see them as they are in different dimensions.
If Quran is talking about more than one heaven then it might be referring to parallel universes; who knows.
My point is that we cannot compare the verses of Quran with the simple picture we have in mind that there is one earth, 11 planets, 1 sun, millions of galaxies and stars. There is more to it. We dont even know where the 90% of the mass is?
The most wierd part of our universe is that it does not have a boundry. It curves in an unimaginable way. According to Einstien if you travel in a straight line, you will end up to where you had started. Quran mentioned something that when jinns try crossing the boundry we hit them with missiles. God knows what that means. Our current knowledge of the universe is very very very unsufficient.
I take these verses as
- The lowest heaven is our universe adorned with stars.
- The other parallel universes might not be adorned with stars.
- Jinns (whoever they are) are unable to travel to other dimensions. They attempt though.
I have a very limited knowledge of Quran. I might be wrong in my conclusions.
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Hello Arnold,
My two cents
There are things that we know and things that we dont know. I put the heaven business in the second category.
Do you know what string theory is? This is the theory that most physicist and scientist believe to be the equation of the universe. Mathamatically it has proven to be correct; however they are still seeking some physical evidence (gravitons etc). If this theory is correct than there are 10 to 11 dimensions (x,y,z,time + 6 to 7 more) and hence 6 to 7 parallel universes. Parallel universes and string theory is the most spooky side of the science and physics. All parallel universes exit in the same space-time zone but we cannot see them as they are in different dimensions.
If Quran is talking about more than one heaven then it might be referring to parallel universes; who knows.
My point is that we cannot compare the verses of Quran with the simple picture we have in mind that there is one earth, 11 planets, 1 sun, millions of galaxies and stars. There is more to it. We dont even know where the 90% of the mass is?
The most wierd part of our universe is that it does not have a boundry. It curves in an unimaginable way. According to Einstien if you travel in a straight line, you will end up to where you had started. Quran mentioned something that when jinns try crossing the boundry we hit them with missiles. God knows what that means. Our current knowledge of the universe is very very very unsufficient.
I take these verses as
- The lowest heaven is our universe adorned with stars.
- The other parallel universes might not be adorned with stars.
- Jinns (whoever they are) are unable to travel to other dimensions. They attempt though.
I have a very limited knowledge of Quran. I might be wrong in my conclusions.
a nice reply bravo
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Hello Arnold,
My two cents
There are things that we know and things that we dont know. I put the heaven business in the second category.
Do you know what string theory is? This is the theory that most physicist and scientist believe to be the equation of the universe. Mathamatically it has proven to be correct; however they are still seeking some physical evidence (gravitons etc). If this theory is correct than there are 10 to 11 dimensions (x,y,z,time + 6 to 7 more) and hence 6 to 7 parallel universes. Parallel universes and string theory is the most spooky side of the science and physics. All parallel universes exit in the same space-time zone but we cannot see them as they are in different dimensions.
So far, this is nothing but a diversion that has absolutely nothing to do with the question. A noble attempt but it simply doesn't work. Where does the first sky begin and end? What was raised above the earth? What is decorated by the stars, planets or whatever you want to pick? We aren't talking about Quantum Physics, we're talking about the picture the Quran paints. I don't take to diversions very well. Sorry.
If Quran is talking about more than one heaven then it might be referring to parallel universes; who knows.
So does that mean that this universe is the lowest heaven because it is decorated with the stars as the Quran interpretors have said? If true, then it goes back to my original question. If the heavens were separated from the earth, and are decorated with stars, or even planets, then the lowest heaven is the universe, but the earth isn't separate from the universe but is rather a subset of it.
But if we look at the sky, or lowest heaven, (take your pick) as a physical canopy or covering of some sort, it suddenly makes perfect sense for the Quran to say it was separated from the earth, raised above the earth, and is like a canopy, and will rip open during the last days. Seems pretty clear when we put all of the things next to each other. Wow!
My point is that we cannot compare the verses of Quran with the simple picture we have in mind that there is one earth, 11 planets, 1 sun, millions of galaxies and stars. There is more to it. We dont even know where the 90% of the mass is?
This has nothing to do with the clear statement of the stars decorating it. So we can forget about other universes or string theory. Again, nothing but a creative attempt at diversion through convolution
The most wierd part of our universe is that it does not have a boundry. It curves in an unimaginable way. According to Einstien if you travel in a straight line, you will end up to where you had started.
But we can clearly see these things that pursue the jinn. A science lesson doesn't hide Quranic errors. I see Muslims frequently do this. They never directly confront the question and instead go off into a long science diatribe that actually has little or nothing to do with the Quran. If it's not an intentional diversion, it sure seems like one.
Quran mentioned something that when jinns try crossing the boundry we hit them with missiles.
Yeah, and it was talking about the things they saw shoot across the sky at night time that looked like stars.
God knows what that means.
Yes, and so do I. And he knows he wouldn't write faulty verses like those that display a faulty 7th century understanding of meteorites.
Our current knowledge of the universe is very very very unsufficient.
Well, we know what meteorites are and it doesn't match the Quran. We know that the sky is not a physical covering as the optical illusion told us. Our current knowledge has nothing to do with what the Quran is clearly telling us, You're just creating the largest gray area that you can to prevent you from facing this error head on. Let's take a look at 1518
015.018
YUSUFALI But any that gains a hearing by stealth, is pursued by a flaming fire, bright (to see).
PICKTHAL Save him who stealeth the hearing, and them doth a clear flame pursue.
SHAKIR But he who steals a hearing, so there follows him a visible flame.There's clearly two points going on there. One, is that these things pursue or follow the jinn, and the other is that these things are clear, visible, bright to see. This isn't talking about something happening in some jinn universe or something, it's talking about something we can clearly see as a sign for us. And that sign is the protection and guarding of the heavens from the jinn, and not the protection of the earth as it actually is in reality, Yet another blunder, but it makes perfect sense that a 7th century person would make these errors.
I take these verses as
- The lowest heaven is our universe adorned with stars.
- The other parallel universes might not be adorned with stars.
- Jinns (whoever they are) are unable to travel to other dimensions. They attempt though.
I have a very limited knowledge of Quran. I might be wrong in my conclusions.
That's fine. you don't need a great deal of knowledge to see what's going on. If the lowest heaven is the universe, and you go back up and read the original verse I quoted of 2130, you will see the precise logical problem I am pointing out in the Quran. If heaven and earth were split from each other, as the verse truly appears to say, and the lowest heaven is the universe, then this means the Quran was telling us that the earth and universe were split apart and are now two separate things. But that's a problem as we know the earth to be a subset of the universe, not something separate from it. Obviously it's impossible for the universe to split itself away from the earth and be raised above it.
However, if we look at the sky or lowest heaven as a physical canopy of some sort (and the Quran does indeed say it's like a canopy), then all of the verses suddenly fall into place and make absolutely perfect sense with no explanation needed at all. Now, it's easy to make sense out of verses that tell us the heavens were separated from the earth, raised above it, are like a canopy and will rip open like ripped camel skin during the last days. So why wouldn't we interpret them in a manner which works perfectly and instead go with very shaky and implausible interpretations?
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Hello Arnold,
When I first started reading your reply I honestly thought I have given the faulty impression of diversion to the audience.
However when I reached till the end I noticed what the problem is.
In my opinion, the problem is that you already have a conclusion in mind "quran has an error" and you are trying to steer the discussion towards that conclusion.First of all note that I am not a believer in the book.
I have not even read the whole book yet. I am exploring it.
I am a monotheist who believes in a God.However I dont see any errors in the book related to the discussion of heavens.
Your biggest concern seems to be this
".. the lowest heaven is the universe, but the earth isn't separate from the universe but is rather a subset of it."
You are focussing on the linguistics rather than the concept. This does not bother me because
- earth was physically joined with the rest of the universe eons ago. (all atoms in this universe were one unit)
- earth is a separate object now.
- so sitting on earth we say that earth has been separated from the rest of the universe.
- if you are a Marsian then you would say the Mars has been separted from the rest of the universe.
Yes earth is still part of the universe but it was physically joined with the rest of the mass earlier.
I have prepared a space shuttle. I am going to fly in it 100 light years deep in the universe. What would I say?
A- "good bye, I am leaving the earth and going to fly to the universe." (earth and universe are separate entities in this sentense)
B- "good bye, I am leaving earth which is already in the universe; and going to fly to the outside earth part of the universe" (seems unacceptable way of putting it)You said
"Where does the first sky begin and end? What was raised above the earth? What is decorated by the stars, planets or whatever you want to pick?"
Perhaps the heavens are separated by dimensions (no digression intended).
You are taking "raising" in the sense of a "roof" as in the case of a planetarium.Do you know what Quran has said about the earth? "We have spread it for you". By this you can deduce that Quran is assuming it to be a flat object. But Quran has also said Earth is an egg shapped. Take "spread" and "egg shapped" together, and you will not reach the faulty conclusion.
(No diversion intended; I am coming back to the discussion; wanted to present an example)
On the same note keep the verses of the Quran in mind that talks about ever expanding universe.
Keep both attributes in mind "ever expanding" and "roof"
It cannot be a roof of a planetarium like structure.
I take it as a "visible roof".Is Arabic word for "roof" same as "physical roof" in English? Or could it mean "visible roof" as well? This is what you need to research first. Arabic words cannot be translated into English one on one.
You said
"But if we look at the sky, or lowest heaven, (take your pick) as a physical canopy or covering of some sort, it suddenly makes perfect sense for the Quran to say it was separated from the earth, raised above the earth, and is like a canopy, and will rip open during the last days. Seems pretty clear when we put all of the things next to each other. Wow!"
Why should we look at it like a physical canapy? First we have to proof that Quran is talking about a physical canapy? I dont think it is. Otherwise why would it use the word "ever expanding". Also the book talks about folding the universe back on the Judgement Day.
You said
"Yeah, and it was talking about the things they saw shoot across the sky at night time that looked like stars."
You are assuming that Quran is referring to the shooting stars (falling meteors) that we see as the missiles fired to the devils.
You said
"However, if we look at the sky or lowest heaven as a physical canopy of some sort (and the Quran does indeed say it's like a canopy), then all of the verses suddenly fall into place and make absolutely perfect sense with no explanation needed at all. Now, it's easy to make sense out of verses that tell us the heavens were separated from the earth, raised above it, are like a canopy and will rip open like ripped camel skin during the last days. So why wouldn't we interpret them in a manner which works perfectly and instead go with very shaky and implausible interpretations?"
I my opinion, you already have a conclusion in mind. This could lead to unfair arguments.
Sorry if you felt that string theory was a digression. To me that fits like a glove. Diversion was not my intention. Why would I creatively divert? I dont need to defend the book. I am exploring it.
Explorer
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Hello Arnold,
When I first started reading your reply I honestly thought I have given the faulty impression of diversion to the audience.
However when I reached till the end I noticed what the problem is.
In my opinion, the problem is that you already have a conclusion in mind "quran has an error" and you are trying to steer the discussion towards that conclusion.No, I'm trying to keep it on point. Quantum Physics has nothing to do with the stars decorating the lower heavens and I made that clear to you.
First of all note that I am not a believer in the book.
I have not even read the whole book yet. I am exploring it.
I am a monotheist who believes in a God.OK. But to me, I never care what they believe really. It's the actual words that count.
However I dont see any errors in the book related to the discussion of heavens.
Your biggest concern seems to be this
".. the lowest heaven is the universe, but the earth isn't separate from the universe but is rather a subset of it."
Yes. Plain. Simple. Logical.
You are focussing on the linguistics rather than the concept. This does not bother me because
- earth was physically joined with the rest of the universe eons ago. (all atoms in this universe were one unit)
- earth is a separate object now.
No it is not. It is a subset of it. It is separate from the stars and planets, but the stars and planets are not the lowest heaven, but instead, they are things that decorate it, which l;eaves the lowest heaven as something else that planets and stars decorated. For instance, lights decorate a ceiling, but the two are not the same thing. i already explained this.
- so sitting on earth we say that earth has been separated from the rest of the universe.
The verse is not written from our perspective because we weren't around yet to see it happen.
- if you are a Marsian then you would say the Mars has been separted from the rest of the universe.
But we didn't say it, God said it, right? But you're right. The verses sure look like one of us said it, and a one of us with 7th century knowledge
Yes earth is still part of the universe but it was physically joined with the rest of the mass earlier.
Physically joined with the stars and planets and the objects in the universe or the universe itself? It doesn't say the earth and the stars and planets were separated, it says the earth and the sky were separated. Important detail.
I have prepared a space shuttle. I am going to fly in it 100 light years deep in the universe. What would I say?
A- "good bye, I am leaving the earth and going to fly to the universe." (earth and universe are separate entities in this sentense)
B- "good bye, I am leaving earth which is already in the universe; and going to fly to the outside earth part of the universe" (seems unacceptable way of putting it)How about C- I'm going to fly in outer space or fly around the universe. Nobody says I'm going to fly to the universe if you really think about it. Whom do you know that would say "fly to the universe"? That would gain a funny look from most educated people. Fly to the sun, or fly to the moon, or to another galaxy, or to Mars or to outer space. These all work. But fly to the universe would get you funny looks.
You said
"Where does the first sky begin and end? What was raised above the earth? What is decorated by the stars, planets or whatever you want to pick?"
Perhaps the heavens are separated by dimensions (no digression intended).
You are taking "raising" in the sense of a "roof" as in the case of a planetarium.What else does "raise above" mean?
Do you know what Quran has said about the earth? "We have spread it for you". By this you can deduce that Quran is assuming it to be a flat object. But Quran has also said Earth is an egg shapped. Take "spread" and "egg shapped" together, and you will not reach the faulty conclusion.
No 7930 never was talking about an ostrich egg at all. That is a scam from Naik the Fake. 7930 is talking about the mother ostrich spreading out the dirt and smooting it down as a place for it;'s egg
http//islamtoday.com/show_detail_section.cfm?q_id=1084&main_cat_id=31
(No diversion intended; I am coming back to the discussion; wanted to present an example)
On the same note keep the verses of the Quran in mind that talks about ever expanding universe.
That is actually not clear.
Keep both attributes in mind "ever expanding" and "roof"
It cannot be a roof of a planetarium like structure.
I take it as a "visible roof".Like a canopy that will rip open like camel skin during the last days? Does a "visual concept" rip open?
Is Arabic word for "roof" same as "physical roof" in English?
Roof, canopy, covering....does it really make a difference?
Or could it mean "visible roof" as well? This is what you need to research first. Arabic words cannot be translated into English one on one.
A visual concept that will rip open at the end days? A visual concept that was physically separated from the earth in the beginning? Anyway, why would you assume mistranslation to be the case when all of the translators basically agree? Why would you put effort into creating creative possibilities that don't appear to be very likely? See? You're already biased. You're already finished.
You said
"But if we look at the sky, or lowest heaven, (take your pick) as a physical canopy or covering of some sort, it suddenly makes perfect sense for the Quran to say it was separated from the earth, raised above the earth, and is like a canopy, and will rip open during the last days. Seems pretty clear when we put all of the things next to each other. Wow!"
Why should we look at it like a physical canapy?
Because some of the verses say it's like a canopy, and, as explained, it's the only way to make all of the verses work with no problems or contradictions. If we say canopy, then everything is easy. Canopy can be separated from what they cover. They can be raised above it. They can have lights decorating it and they can rip open. Seems pretty easy to me. Why would we look at it any other way? No really good reason to except for the fact that my interpretation puts the Quran at odds with 21st centiry knowledge, and that's the ONLY good reason to reject my clear, easy and simple interpretation.
First we have to proof that Quran is talking about a physical canapy? I dont think it is.
Well, when one says canopy, or something like that, the first thing anybody is clearly supposed to think of is a physical covering of some sort. That's the clear plain interpretation. But, if you think it means some far out interpretation, then it is you who have to substantiate. I don't have to substantiate because it uses default common sense for a default conclusion. In other words, would isn't anybody supposed to envision a physical covering of some sort when the word canopy is used?
Otherwise why would it use the word "ever expanding". Also the book talks about folding the universe back on the Judgement Day.
Those are very dubious interpretations created by modern day scammers such as Naik the Fake. Far from proven or even strongly demonstrated
You said
"Yeah, and it was talking about the things they saw shoot across the sky at night time that looked like stars."
You are assuming that Quran is referring to the shooting stars (falling meteors) that we see as the missiles fired to the devils.
Yes, because 1518 clearly says we can see them.
You said
"However, if we look at the sky or lowest heaven as a physical canopy of some sort (and the Quran does indeed say it's like a canopy), then all of the verses suddenly fall into place and make absolutely perfect sense with no explanation needed at all. Now, it's easy to make sense out of verses that tell us the heavens were separated from the earth, raised above it, are like a canopy and will rip open like ripped camel skin during the last days. So why wouldn't we interpret them in a manner which works perfectly and instead go with very shaky and implausible interpretations?"
I my opinion, you already have a conclusion in mind. This could lead to unfair arguments.
Having a conclusion in mind based on solid objective reasoning and good old common sense does not change the facts nor the point. You have to tell me why what I say is so implausible and why what you say is so plausible. but so far, the only problem with what I say is that it puts the Quran at odds with science, whereas I've shown multiple problems with the theories you are suggesting/creating. Now, you are the one who is going through efforts to stretch the interpretation and prevent the Quran from being in error. I'm just talking about what the Quran actually appears to simply say. So who already has a conclusion or bias in mind? I'm not the one making the creative effort, I merely picked the easiest and most simple idea. Takes no effort on my part.
Sorry if you felt that string theory was a digression. To me that fits like a glove. Diversion was not my intention. Why would I creatively divert? I dont need to defend the book. I am exploring it.
ExplorerThat's no problem. I just get that kind of stuff a lot from Muslims, so I jump on it because i know what they are doing and it really bugs me to see them try it.. But it doesn't look like you're motives were the same and instead more innocent. So sorry for jumping on you.
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Hello Arnold,
I heard your point of view. You main concerns are "roof" and "earth is part of universe".
I am more inclined on the plausible side and you are on implausible side. I agree.
The heaven business is not a show stopper for me. Too many unknowns are in the equation.
Off topic You have established that there is an error in Quran. Now what?
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Heaven could refer to the particle horizon of the observable universe.
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Hello Arnold,
I heard your point of view. You main concerns are "roof" and "earth is part of universe".
I am more inclined on the plausible side and you are on implausible side. I agree.
The heaven business is not a show stopper for me. Too many unknowns are in the equation.
Off topic You have established that there is an error in Quran. Now what?
Now what? Do you realize that Muslims do not insist that the Quran was inspired by God as some suggest about the Bible, but that instead it is claimed to be the word for word, letter for letter dictation of Allah? Does Allah have a 7th century view of the cosmos or did Muhammad? Now what? How could you even ask that? Allah didn't write those verses, Muhammad did. One error, and the entire Quran topples like a house of cards. Don't blame me, as I didn't make that rule, Muslims did. Why do you think that Muslims are the most creative twisters of their scriptures out of any other religion? Because they have to be, because the standard is absolute perfection. a standard that was bound to fail the more and more it talked about things like the cosmos. It should have kept it's mouth shut about things it didn't know about, but it didn't. That was the fatal blunder. Now, if you talk to Muslims, it will be as though none of this conversation ever took place. They appear to have an uncanny ability to fool themselves or lie to themselves. Something I still haven't figured out yet. How do they do it? I just don't know.
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Now what? Do you realize that Muslims do not insist that the Quran was inspired by God as some suggest about the Bible, but that instead it is claimed to be the word for word, letter for letter dictation of Allah? Does Allah have a 7th century view of the cosmos or did Muhammad? Now what? How could you even ask that? Allah didn't write those verses, Muhammad did. One error, and the entire Quran topples like a house of cards. Don't blame me, as I didn't make that rule, Muslims did. Why do you think that Muslims are the most creative twisters of their scriptures out of any other religion? Because they have to be, because the standard is absolute perfection. a standard that was bound to fail the more and more it talked about things like the cosmos. It should have kept it's mouth shut about things it didn't know about, but it didn't. That was the fatal blunder. Now, if you talk to Muslims, it will be as though none of this conversation ever took place. They appear to have an uncanny ability to fool themselves or lie to themselves. Something I still haven't figured out yet. How do they do it? I just don't know.
I think he meant something more along the lines of "Now what for you?"
You seem to have an inherent hate for the quran and are bothered by people following it, so why go to a forum where the main focus is the quran? By all means, you are welcome here, but I am curious as to why you insist on putting yourself through misery. Why not just let us keep lying to ourselves in peace?
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I think he meant something more along the lines of "Now what for you?"
You seem to have an inherent hate for the quran and are bothered by people following it, so why go to a forum where the main focus is the quran? By all means, you are welcome here, but I am curious as to why you insist on putting yourself through misery. Why not just let us keep lying to ourselves in peace?
Because I get sick and tired of having to listen about the perfect Quran when it's obviously it's just as faulty as many other books. It's all a scam by Muslims which would be ignorable if they weren't so aggressive with their ideas and beliefs. So I find it annoying and I cure that annoyance by showing them the errors from their perfect book right in front of their nose. But of course, I've learned that the human mind is quite capable of lying to itself if it needs to, although I haven't quite figured out how this is done, as it doesn't seem possible to lie to oneself to me, and yet, I see it all of the time. This thread will simple be shut out of people's minds. And yet, this is the free your mind forum? Hardly. I just honestly don't think that's possible for a Muslim as Islam is the antithesis of freedom and free thought.
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Now what? Do you realize that Muslims do not insist that the Quran was inspired by God as some suggest about the Bible, but that instead it is claimed to be the word for word, letter for letter dictation of Allah? Does Allah have a 7th century view of the cosmos or did Muhammad? Now what? How could you even ask that? Allah didn't write those verses, Muhammad did. One error, and the entire Quran topples like a house of cards. Don't blame me, as I didn't make that rule, Muslims did. Why do you think that Muslims are the most creative twisters of their scriptures out of any other religion? Because they have to be, because the standard is absolute perfection. a standard that was bound to fail the more and more it talked about things like the cosmos. It should have kept it's mouth shut about things it didn't know about, but it didn't. That was the fatal blunder. Now, if you talk to Muslims, it will be as though none of this conversation ever took place. They appear to have an uncanny ability to fool themselves or lie to themselves. Something I still haven't figured out yet. How do they do it? I just don't know.
Arnold, I see what you are saying. My next obvious question is if you are convinced then what are you doing in this forum? Are you attempting to prove to the Quranites that this book is not written by a God?
I have to be honest with you. I see dozens of things in the book that keeps me going; impossible for a human to write. Yet I see problems as well like paranormals. I will reach a final verdict once I complete the whole book. The issues where word games are involved (heavens, jinns etc) and where there are too many unknowns in the equations, ain't stopping me.
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So a human observation was split apart from the earth?
It's not human observation, it's called particle horizon for a reason.
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Because I get sick and tired of having to listen about the perfect Quran when it's obviously it's just as faulty as many other books. It's all a scam by Muslims which would be ignorable if they weren't so aggressive with their ideas and beliefs. So I find it annoying and I cure that annoyance by showing them the errors from their perfect book right in front of their nose. But of course, I've learned that the human mind is quite capable of lying to itself if it needs to, although I haven't quite figured out how this is done, as it doesn't seem possible to lie to oneself to me, and yet, I see it all of the time. This thread will simple be shut out of people's minds. And yet, this is the free your mind forum? Hardly. I just honestly don't think that's possible for a Muslim as Islam is the antithesis of freedom and free thought.
Hello Arnold, I think you have answered by previous question "what are you doing here". We both posted the replies at the same time I guess.
The reason you get this feeling from muslims is that they think it is their duty to somehow explain each and every word of Quran. They dont know that there is a "dont know" category as well. If this is a book from God then they might not be able to explain each and every thing in it (jinn for example).
If one has seen the proof then one should accept the book as a whole with all its unkowns. (there is a difference between unknowns and fallacies; for me heaven and jinn are in unknown).
If someone then asks a question about an unkown area, a muslim could say "I dont know what God meant by that but I still believe in this book because I have seen the sign/proof". Unfortunately this is not the case with most muslims I have met.
Explorer