2:260 - an obvious error in translation?
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peace all,
I came across this a while ago, but thought might as well post it here.
Some translate this verse to mean birds were cut up and brought back alive, whilst others translate it as birds were trained/tamed and returned back to Abraham. The latter is the most likely translation based on the evidence.
Shakir And when Ibrahim said My Lord! show me how Thou givest life to the dead, He said What! and do you not believe? He said Yes, but that my heart may be at ease. He said Then take four of the birds, then train them to follow you, then place on every mountain a part of them, then call them, they will come to you flying; and know that Allah is Mighty, Wise.
Further reading
http//aaiil.org/text/articles/bash/referencebirdsquran.shtml -
That would be equal to Jesus's symbolic bringing to life, the dead, correct?
By training them ;D
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The link is English rendering of an article in Urdu. This is negated by this Urdu Article in Urdu
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/book_1/20/slides/01.html
The question/desire was to see how the dead will be revived/raised/resurrected. Until and unless he had seen the dead and then seen them revived to life, the question/desire would have remained unanswered.
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That would be equal to Jesus's symbolic bringing to life, the dead, correct?
Not sure, I haven't studied that.
This is negated by this Urdu Article in Urdu
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/book_1/20/slides/01.htmlI cannot read Urdu, so cant comment on the link given. If you could list the strong points against the translation I gave I would appreciate it.
The question/desire was to see how the dead will be revived/raised/resurrected. Until and unless he had seen the dead and then seen them revived to life, the question/desire would have remained unanswered.
kayfa (how) tuhyee (you give life) al mawta (the dead)
I believe it uses "kayfa/how", as in the method used by God, not that the request was to simply show a dead thing come alive, but in "how" it was done. The birds return to their caller when they are called, like how we will return to our Maker when "called".
Also, placing them on hilltops/mountains would not be necessary if they were simply cut into pieces and brought alive.
Does the Urdu article comment on the lexical info?
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Brother Wakas, Assalmo Alaikum
I have hurriedly tried to translate relevant part from the Urdu Article and placed it at this link for convenience since it contains images of Ayha in Arabic and till date I have not been able to learn placing of images in the post. I will request editing/improvement.
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/01.%20Book-1%20Articles/01.%20How%20dead%20will%20be%20revived/01.%20Dead%20revived.htm
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Brother Wakas, Assalmo Alaikum
I have hurriedly tried to translate relevant part from the Urdu Article and placed it at this link for convenience since it contains images of Ayha in Arabic and till date I have not been able to learn placing of images in the post. I will request editing/improvement.
Use it like
http//yourimage.com/image.jpg
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One man cannot leave four alive birds each on a different mountain. When we keep the entire verse before our eyes things seem quite vivid. Let us see it again
"And when Ibrahim { }said, "My Sustainer Lord! Let me see with my eyes as to how You would revive life to dead.
He said, "Do you not accept revival of the dead?".
Ibrahim said, "Yes I accept that, but just for the sake of my heart's desire for absolute satisfaction".
He said, "For the purpose acquire four from bird species then make them acquainted/familiarized/ tamed towards/with you.
Thereafter lapse of time { }place on all mountains from those birds in pieces;
Thereafter lapse of time { }call them in the familiar manner, they will come to you running.
And remember certainly Allah has control/power over everything, The Wise Knower of hidden"YUSUFALI When Abraham said "Show me, Lord, how You will raise the dead, " He replied "Have you no faith?" He said "Yes, but just to reassure my heart." Allah said, "Take four birds, draw them to you, and cut their bodies to pieces. Scatter them over the mountain-tops, then call them back. They will come swiftly to you. Know that Allah is Mighty, Wise."
PICKTHAL And when Abraham said (unto his Lord) My Lord! Show me how Thou givest life to the dead, He said Dost thou not believe? Abraham said Yea, but (I ask) in order that my heart may be at ease. (His Lord) said Take four of the birds and cause them to incline unto thee, then place a part of them on each hill, then call them, they will come to thee in haste, and know that Allah is Mighty, Wise.
SHAKIR And when Ibrahim said My Lord! show me how Thou givest life to the dead, He said What! and do you not believe? He said Yes, but that my heart may be at ease. He said Then take four of the birds, then train them to follow you, then place on every mountain a part of them, then call them, they will come to you flying; and know that Allah is Mighty, Wise.++
Root
It signifies seeing with the eye, arouse attention, consideration. It also signifies mental perception, conception, notion, idea. It is in any case related to physical senses. When it has one complement it means seeing with eye; with two complements it means knowing, have knowledge.
"" means "Me"
"You let me see with eyes"Particle. How, as to why; in what way.
Revive to life the dead
Ibrahim { } has made a request in simple and plain words that he wanted to see with his own eyes as to how the dead will be revived. He has not expressed any suspicion { } about the resurrection of dead on the Day of Judgment. Allah knew it since He knows the secrets of the hearts/chest that there was no such thing. But if this was narrated to others someone could err in presuming that Ibrahim { } had some doubts in his mind. Allah makes things clear so that no one could have any suspicion or misconception about a thing. He asked a question to let it be known to the humanity that there was no such thing in the mind of Ibrahim { }. And the answer was the same which was already known to Allah. But this clarified for humanity that the Friend of Allah Ibrahim { } did not have any suspicion and he just wanted for his own absolute satisfaction to see the scene of resurrection of dead.
Ibrahim { } did not ask for making him understand the methodology/philosophy of raising the dead but instead requested "Let me see with my own eyes". A truth seen with one's own eyes rises to the level of absolute truth/proven fact and this absolute confidence/peace of heart and mind to indulge in dialogue/argument with others.
He said, "For the purpose acquire four from bird species then make them acquainted/familiarized/ tamed towards/with you.
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is conjunction, denoting order and a delay giving the perception of a sequence "after that, afterwards, next, as a consequence"The basic concept infolded in this Root is to tie, bind a thing. This gives the perception of confining and collecting together. When someone ties himself to a certain action and attitude we call it his habit.
"And they don't get tied to it what they had done" meaning they don't make it a habit/become habitual. {Refer 3135}
And obviously when it will be used in relation to animals and birds their confining/tying would reflect making them familiar/ friendly/tamed.He was advised to acquire four birds and then take time to tie them with him. He was asked to make those four acquired birds familiar and friendly with him. It takes time to make birds friendly, acquainted and familiarized with their master. Only such birds listen to the call and come near to someone who was kept and familiarized {kept tied/restricted}.
"Thereafter lapse of time { }place on all mountains from those birds in pieces"
Singular
A part/particle of something; a piece of something. When a thing/composite unit is divided/separated/ segregated/demarcated to make one part distinct from the other only then the word can be used in relation to that composite thing.When a space/area is divided into parts we call each part as portion of that space/area. {Refer 1544}Here the particle has been used. It may be noted that this is a talk and all words are in the first person. One has questioned/made request and Allah is directly answering him. The request is seeing the revival of the dead. Therefore there was no need of saying/mentioning of killing those birds. If the birds were to left on the mountains the particle could not be used. Instead conjunction ""or ""needed to be applied which denote order and a delay giving the perception of a sequence "after that, afterwards, next, as a consequence". Particle is used in a distinct manner. It occurs as conjunction between two things different from each other in nature and reflects a break and time gap between both, not continuity. It does not reflect the perception of relationship of cause and effect. It always occur between life and death and death and life.
Birds were four but their pieces were to be scattered on "all the mountains" . Had each one of those four birds were to be placed on "mountain" the words could/need not be used. Then the words do not permit to presume that birds were to be placed on "all mountains" alive. is suggesting the condition/state in which those four birds were to be scattered on all the mountains.
also does not permit to presume that the four birds were to be placed individually on "all mountains". Ibrahim { } takes one bird to one mountain for leaving him there. Can it be imagined that while he returns back the bird will not start following him to come back to the ground? Anyone may try it to place four birds tamed and friendly with him on four different mountains and I assure you that he will reach his last day but he will never succeed in leaving four birds on different mountains. This will show ridiculousness of thouht of those who suggest that birds were not killed and just tamed.
"Thereafter lapse of time { }call them in the familiar manner, they will come to you running"
Root
Signifies the going along with vigor, lightness, activity or quickness; walk, trip, trudge.Here again has been used which shows the time gap. It is always used for revival of life in the dead ones. Only those birds come to you on your call who were friendly with you and whom you recognize quite conveniently even if they are intermingled with similar birds of their species. It has not been said that those birds will come to you flying. It has been said those birds will come running to you
Perception and meanings; and occasion of use.
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/002.%20Meanings%20and%20Tabweeb%20of%20words/Dhumma%20%20Summa/001.%20SUMMA.htm
Perception and Meanings
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/002.%20Meanings%20and%20Tabweeb%20of%20words/Ba'as%20Revive/01.%20Ba'as%20Meaning.htm
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peace brother Mazher,
Sorry for my delay in reply, I was away from home and limited in time.
made a request in simple and plain words that he wanted to see with his own eyes as to how the dead will be revived.
to see the scene of resurrection of dead.
Let's be clear Abraham asked "kayfa (how) tuhyee (you give life) al mawta (the dead)" NOT what you stated above.
Ibrahim { } did not ask for making him understand the methodology/philosophy of raising the dead but instead requested "Let me see with my own eyes".
He asked "kayfa/how". One can still use their eyes to see how things are done.
The request is seeing the revival of the dead.
Again, you misquote, the request was to see with his own eyes HOW God gives life to the dead.
Can you expand upon and clarify the following statements
If the birds were to left on the mountains the particle could not be used. Instead conjunction ""or ""needed to be applied which denote order and a delay giving the perception of a sequence "after that, afterwards, next, as a consequence".
Are you implying fa AND waw when used imply a sequence/order and this is a rule of their usage?
Particle is used in a distinct manner. It occurs as conjunction between two things different from each other in nature and reflects a break and time gap between both, not continuity. It does not reflect the perception of relationship of cause and effect. It always occur between life and death and death and life.
I do not mind the usage of "thumma" implying a time gap, as this would be needed to place them on all/every mountain. However, I do not see "thumma" always occurs between life and death and death and life, e.g. 718, 719. What is your source for this statement?
Can it be imagined that while he returns back the bird will not start following him to come back to the ground?
Yes, hence using 4 birds. More birds means more likely to spread them out.
It is always used for revival of life in the dead ones.
See above. Also, please cite source of this statement.
It has not been said that those birds will come to you flying. It has been said those birds will come running to you
The word means striving, labouring, in haste. An interpretation could be flying as this is the most common mode of travel for a bird. I do not mind either flying/running. However, if the interpretation of running is used then what about the pieces cut up without legs?
Some additional points
If the sign/verse is about reviving the dead, why use more than one bird?
Why scatter multiple pieces over every/all mountains? Why even use mountains?
Does this example map to our reality, i.e. when we die are we in pieces scattered then brought back to our Creator? No.As a side note, upon studying the previous sign of 2159 it seems its theme was when, i.e. time, nothing to do with reviving the dead per se. Similarly, with 2160, its concern was how, i.e. method.
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Yes Brother, the verse is narrating it like that if we restrict ourselves to the words of the book and do not add from our own perception.
If we restrict it to the words of the book, then blindness is equated with blindness to the truth, deafness, the same, leprosy to spiritual disease, death to complete spiritual stagnation (see 1316 and specifically that one article by Arnold Yasin a while back).
Does this example map to our reality, i.e. when we die are we in pieces scattered then brought back to our Creator? No.
Think about it, yes, where does our skin go?
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Perhaps the meaning of the verse is more symbolic.
Here follows the understanding of the verse by Akhtar Shearzi as presented in one of his booksThe phrase Arbaatum-min-al-tair identifies a group or a band of free men. This also denotes a large number of people, who are like-minded, with a liberated and independent way of thinking. In Arabic Arbaal Qoum identifies a gathering of men, whereas Humulyaom-al-Rabaa signifies a large number. Therefore, in this verse Arbaa transcends its usual literal connotation of numeral four and stands for a large gathering of people in the form of a party, a group or a big assembly.
Literally, the word Al-tair translates into bird, but here it symbolically represents a free soul, an unprejudiced person. As the English adage goes, "free like a Jay bird." Here the stress is upon the free spirit of the person and not on the bird.
The word Juz signifies even or odd numbers and does not stand for pieces of birds or minced meat. it also encompasses every member of a particular group or a party. However, it should be understood clearly that it does not, in a ny way, condone the ridiculous translations of cutting up slaughtered birds into pieces.
This composition Qulloo jublim-min-hoona refers to the stalwart leaders among the people of that time, who had rock solid position among them and had inflexible views, such as immovable high mountains. This expression is just a figurative description of the people in power, who opposed the system that the messenger wanted to implement.
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So the right and logical explanation of the verse should read as under
"Abraham you are at a loss to understand the procedure, by adopting which, you are going to change this lifeless nation into an active and dynamic force? instead of getting confused, you should take the following steps
Select the unbiased and unprejudiced people , teach them the revelation sent to you, train them how to apply the constitution of Allah and then form a party of these companions, equipped with the real knowledge provided by you sustainer. Then sent each of them, all over the place, to convince the people to accept the new program. They should go as far as they can, running over hills and valleys. Some of them should approuch their dominent leaders, who are established among the populace, like high and colossal mountains and convey the Message to them, disregarding their opposition to the program presented. These members of your party should support you through thick and thin and appreciate your efforts from the core of their hearts. Therefore, whenever you will call them back from their missions for consultation, regarding any important development, they shall dash, immediately, back to you. Precisely, this is the procedure, adopting which you can instill a new life in this listless nation"
..........The mythological story or the folklore presented by the contemporary Islamic pundits is a ridiculous misrepresentation of the quoted Quranic verse. Abraham was faced with a challenge of resurrecting his nation from the physical and mental apathy. He was given the job to chisel the rock like nation into a vibrant and energetic shape. However, he was at a loss to understand, how to go forward and achieve the givenobjective. Then he received the master plan from his Creator, which he put into action and achieved unprecendented succes.
Now, the question is, did his purported miracle solved his predicament? The answer is definite NO. Miracles never solve any problems the human ingenuity, determination, consistent effort and right guidance remove insurmountable obstacles out of the way and help in achieving the pre-determined objective.
Is it logical to believe the dead birds, whose meat is cut up, ground together and placed on different hilltops turned alive on a gesture of Abraham? This is a clear contravention of Allah's code of death and of Mother Nature, which unambiguously, declares that dead people or animals are gone forever and never returnPeace
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Did he disregard a blatant command from God? Be serious.
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probably Prophet Abraham (PBUH) wanted to ask Allah 'how the tamed animal run after their master".
He might have used the words "bringing the dead to living" metaphorically as the whole Quran is full of "metaphorical /allegorical" sentences.
As qiblah /Al-Masjidul Haraam/Almush3arul Haraam are metaphorical. -
probably Prophet Abraham (PBUH) wanted to ask Allah 'how the tamed animal run after their master".
He might have used the words "bringing the dead to living" metaphorically as the whole Quran is full of "metaphorical /allegorical" sentences.
As qiblah /Al-Masjidul Haraam/Almush3arul Haraam are metaphorical.There is a large difference between "metaphorical" and "metaphysical".
