2:260 - an obvious error in translation?
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There is no commandment in that verse. .... just a receipe.... it's up to the questioner to cook it.
ahhhh how I miss snail mail, which gave people time to pause and reflect.
So, what is the correct translation of that verse? Did an omnipotent God give a recipe/advice/commandment to be ignored, by Abraham who he declared as a friend, and who he declared as our religious father?
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made a request in simple and plain words that he wanted to see with his own eyes as to how the dead will be revived.{Mazhar}
to see the scene of resurrection of dead.{Mazhar}
Let's be clear Abraham asked "kayfa (how) tuhyee (you give life) al mawta (the dead)" NOT what you stated above.{Wakas}
is no doubt Aorist and it includes the future. Life is originated from the matter and another life is to revive the dead. He wants to see with his eyes how life is given/originated or revived. If he meant how Allah gives/originates/germinates life then there is no point that he should have been advised to get four birds. Birds are already having life. Therefore it means nothing else but reviving the dead { removing of that thing which restrained one from free action}. And it may be noted that suspicion of the people is that how would they be resurrected/revived/given a new life when their dead bodies would have become rotten bones and mixed in dust. When any one wants to know how life is given to the dead he is talking about the future event not the present. There is another episode of a man traveling on a donkey. He had spoken to himself that as to how Allah will raise this rotten dead city. He was made to die. After hundred years he was given life and shown how the dead are resurrected when he with his own eyes saw the rotten bones uniting and becoming a Skelton and then flesh was wrapped on those bones and he identified his donkey. We are also born in the same manner that first our bones and skeleton comes into existence and then the flesh takes its position.
If the birds were to be left on the mountains the particle could not be used. Instead conjunction ""or ""needed to be applied which denote order and a delay giving the perception of a sequence "after that, afterwards, next, as a consequence".{Mazhar}
Are you implying fa AND waw when used imply a sequence/order and this is a rule of their usage?{Wakas}
I have elaborated by quoting from the entire Quran e Majeed that whenever there is a mention of life and death {not matter and life} and death and life the particle is always used and not for once ""or "" were employed. Kindly go through this
erception and meanings; and occasion of use.http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/002.%20Meanings%20and%20Tabweeb%20of%20words/Dhumma%20%20Summa/001.%20SUMMA.htm
Can it be imagined that while he returns back the bird will not start following him to come back to the ground?{Mazhar}
Yes, hence using 4 birds. More birds means more likely to spread them out.{Wakas}
Birds or pets that are familiar keep following the master. If I have four birds or dogs I cannot leave them separately on different mountains when they are alive. I take one to one mountain, leave him there he will start coming back following me unless I tie him there. The proposition of leaving four pets in alive condition on different mountains suffers from impractibility.
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peace Mazhar,
You skipped some of my questions, but nonetheless I will cover your points
is no doubt Aorist and it includes the future. Life is originated from the matter and another life is to revive the dead. He wants to see with his eyes how life is given/originated or revived. If he meant how Allah gives/originates/germinates life then there is no point that he should have been advised to get four birds. Birds are already having life. Therefore it means nothing else but reviving the dead.
I diagree with your above point. Abraham asked "kayfa/how". This is very clear. If you want to interpret it to mean he asked to see the dead being revived only, that is up to you.
When any one wants to know how life is given to the dead he is talking about the future event not the present.
It can be either. If I ask you how do you fry and egg? You could either explain it to me on the spot (i.e. present) or make one, showing me how its done (i.e. future).
whenever there is a mention of life and death {not matter and life} and death and life the particle is always used and not for once ""or "" were employed.
You did not comment on the examples I gave so I am not sure what you mean here.
Birds or pets that are familiar keep following the master. If I have four birds or dogs I cannot leave them separately on different mountains when they are alive. I take one to one mountain, leave him there he will start coming back following me unless I tie him there. The proposition of leaving four pets in alive condition on different mountains suffers from impractibility.
On documentaries I've seen, falcons for example are often called from very far away and return. That is the whole point of training them, they stay away until called.
Burhan, thanks for the observation.
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Peace,
Are four mounts where Abraham leaved the birds in pieces refers to four summit of Mount of Olives.?
"This mount, or rather mountain range, has four summits or peaks (1) the "Galilee" peak, so called from a tradition that the angels stood here when they spoke to the disciples (Acts 111); (2) the "Mount of Ascension," the supposed site of that event, which was, however, somewhere probably nearer Bethany (Luke 2451, 52); (3) the "Prophets," from the catacombs on its side, called "the prophets' tombs;" and (4) the "Mount of Corruption," so called because of the "high places" erected there by Solomon for the idolatrous worship of his foreign wives (I Kings 117; II Kings 2313)".
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_of_OlivesPeace.
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Wakas
Some additional points
If the sign/verse is about reviving the dead, why use more than one bird?
Why scatter multiple pieces over every/all mountains? Why even use mountains?
Does this example map to our reality, i.e. when we die are we in pieces scattered then brought back to our Creator? No.As a side note, upon studying the previous sign of 2159 it seems its theme was when, i.e. time, nothing to do with reviving the dead per se. Similarly, with 2160, its concern was how, i.e. method.
Some more additional points
The birds were? Piegons, Sparrows, crows???
How were they cut by Knife or Sword??
What kind of mountains? How will Abraham climb the mountainsCome On Wakas! I am confused at first I thought some one is using your Nick.
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Wakas
Some more additional points
The birds were? Piegons, Sparrows, crows???
How were they cut by Knife or Sword??
What kind of mountains? How will Abraham climb the mountainsCome On Wakas! I am confused at first I thought some one is using your Nick.
Raj-ah!
Wakas's questions are very legitmate and are the kind of questions that help understand better. I myself asked these questions (well, if that helps!!). The questions you gave as equal to them are but the unnecessary details for which you find answers in hadith.Back to the topic.
My question ;D is What's it with "tayr"?3 49 "I have come to you with a sign from your God that I design for you of clay a figure like that of a bird, and breath into it and it becomes a bird by God's leave"; also 5110
2716 "And Suleiman inherited Dawood and said O people! We have been taught the language of birds (tayr)"
27 17 "And there were gathered before Suleiman his soldiers from "jinn", humans and birds (tayr)" -
http//19.org/index.php?id=91,548,0,0,1,0&PHPSESSID=8a9ac0c08f5881f1dc1731bafd11c413
Jesus's 'miracles'
The word which is translated as 'miracles' inside the Christian Gospels is the misunderstood Greek word dunameis, which literally means an action of power and mostly is combined with the word teras=to astound people and semeion=sign, and referred to that Jesus broke all the cultural rules, that were established, which had created different classes. Jesus was a miracle worker, as he broke all the cultural rules, but he committed no miracles as they common dogma tells us now. The Quran also tells us this, but under influence of the Christians, the so-called miracles were forced on the verses.
The healings of Jesus are meant metaphorically. Like the words used in 349, the word is abras, one suffering from lukoderma, a disease that discolours the skin, and not judham, leprosy. Probably under evangelical influences did it got confused with leprosy. Metaphorically, however, it means, to have ones misfortune added to another. Ibn Faris says that al-biras means, barren portions of the desert, whence the metaphorical meaning of misfortune, so Jesus cured misfortunes by teaching people the truth.
349.......Those of you who are spotted with sin, I will heal them, and I shall grant real life to those who are just dragging on without purpose/al-abrasa
The Quran compares moral crimes to diseases, and calls those guilty of them, deaf, dumb and blind, as in 218 and diseased of the heart in 210 and even dead as in 2780, that is why the scripture, which is the Truth, is called a healing in 4144.
349 .........The blind among you will begin to see the Truth.
218 Deaf, dumb and blind of Reason! They will not return to begin their journey in the right direction (unless they use their faculties of perception and reasoning. (822, 1676, 1736)
349 ....and bring the dead back to life by God's leave/and I shall grant real life to those who are just dragging on without purpose....
210 This negative attitude is a disease in their hearts that reinforces itself according to the Divine Law of Cause and Effect....
2780 But verily, you cannot make the dead (or the ?living-dead?) hear, nor can you make the deaf of heart to hear the call when they turn back to retreat.
4144 Now if We had made it a Qur'an in a non-Arabic tongue they would surely have said, "Why is it that its verses have not been made clear? Why - a foreign tongue and an Arab?" Say, "For those who accept it, this is a Guidance and medicine for a wholesome life. But as for those who will not believe (Arabs or non-Arabs), in their ears is deafness, and so it remains obscure to them. They are like people who are called to from afar. (26200)
So through Tasreef we end up with this understanding
349 And he will be a Messenger to the Children of Israel. He will say to them, ?I come to you with Revelation from your Lord. If you follow me, I will raise you from dust to the heights of glory by the Command of Allah (7176). The blind among you will begin to see the Truth. Those of you who are spotted with sin, I will heal them, and I shall grant real life to those who are just dragging on without purpose; all by Allah's leave and according to his Laws. I am here to establish justice and equity. I shall see to it how much you hoard in your houses and how much you spend on the community. My teachings are sufficient signs for you to believe.?
It is again, shown that people distort the metaphorical meanings, and don't take the Quran as its guide how to understand things. The Quran clearly says, that even with miracles, people still will not believe. Only the Truth can make people understand. Through Christian influences and commentaries written by Persians 300 years after the Prophet, the true Quranic message was hidden beneath superstition and illogical thinking. They took the Bible as a higher authority as commentary then the Quran itself.
Now let's try to understand the word Tair, which is commonly translated with Bird.
Lane's Lexicon says
Tay-Ya-Ra = flew, hasten to it, outstripped, become foremost, fled, love, become attached, famous, conceive, scatter/disperse, fortune.
Tair has multiple meanings besides to bird, as this is the traditional translation of this verse, that Jesus made a live bird out of clay. Tair it also means omen as in 7131, 2747, 3619, actions and register of deeds as in 1713, and it also means destiny or fortune, as in this verse. Jesus people were in a deplorable state 3112, and he raised them up out of that dust/low state.
See any other translation to confirm these meanings
7131 ........ they blamed it on the bad omen/yattayyaroo of Moses and his companions. Most people know not that there is no such thing as a bad omen or a good omen/ta-iruhum. People determine their destiny according to Allah?s Laws. In that sense, then, omens are with Allah alone.
2747 They answered, "We consider you, and your companions a bad omen/ittayyarna for us." He said, "Your omen/ta-iru is determined by Allah?s Laws. Nay, you are but a folk who are being tested."
3619 The Messengers replied, "Your destiny/ta-iru rests with yourselves, now that you have been reminded. (There is no such thing as a bad omen 1713). Nay, but you are a people who are wasting away your potentials.? (1012).
1713 All deeds/ ta-ira of the humans are instantly recorded on their ?Self?, as if the record book is fastened to their own necks. And We shall bring forth this record book wide open to them on the Day of Resurrection.
The Quran rejects unreasonable thinking as Allah always refers to reason and research (3191). Allah does not change His Laws in the Universe, as His fixed Laws express His Will in the world of Khalq, Creation. The need for miracles is a psychological escape out of Reality, and thus they remain in a state of illusion. It is a psychological state which is sustained as the mind cannot cope with Reality and is still in an infant state of denial.
The Quran is send to us to create the correct relation to Reality so we can use the Universe in the best way to attain Paradise in this Life. Through understanding Nature, which is demanded throughout the Quran, and the use of Tasreef, crossreference of words and subjects, we attain the correct understanding of verses
5110 When Allah will say, ?O Jesus, son of Mary! Recall My blessings upon you and your mother. I strengthened you with Sacred Revelation, enabled you to speak eloquently to the people while still in childhood, and also at a later age (345). I gave you revelation and wisdom including the Torah and the Gospel. Recall when you formed the state of your people's destiny and that you would raise them from dust up into the heights of glory by My leave (7176). You made people see the Truth otherwise given to blind following by My leave. You healed the wounds of inequity on people by My leave, and you gave a new meaning to life to those who were otherwise no better than dead by My leave (348, 3111, 6123). Recall, how I prevented the Children of Israel from harming you when you came to them with all evidence of the truth (4157). And those who were bent upon denying the truth said, ?This is nothing but clear deception.?
Normally this verse is translated that Jesus makes a bird alive out of clay, which goes against the fixed laws of nature. For the first generations of Islamic scholars, it is understandable they understood it as a miracle understanding where Jesus really made a bird out of clay. There ignorance of the laws of nature and also the influence of Christian literature are the causes of these interpretations. Now through science we know this is nonsense, and through Biblical studies we also know now that the Christian literature cannot be trusted as an authentic source.
Solomon
These next verses are very important as to prove the right understanding of how the word jinn, is meant differently throughout the Quran and if Solomon could really talk with birds. First let?s read the verses
- Solomon was heir to David, and he said "O people, we have been taught the language of Tair/knowledge of the use of horses in battle, and have been given of everything. This is a clear favour indeed."
- His armies of jinns (nomads, tribes, people from rarely seen societies and men of high rank and position) and men and Tair assembled, formed into ranks, (and marched)
- Till they reached the Valley of Naml. Said the lady of Naml "O Naml, go into your dwellings lest Solomon and his hordes should crush you unawares."
- (Solomon) smiled, amused at her speech, and said "O Lord grant me that I should be grateful for the favours You have bestowed on me and my parents, and do good things of Your pleasing; and admit me among Your righteous devotees by Your grace."
The story of the ants and the bird is very intriguing. It has 2 approaches which will be given here. Since words have more then one meaning or background it is interesting what people choose sometimes, and have a distorted idea of a meaning. The Arabic naml, means ants, but was also the name of a tribe in Syria, even ibn Kathir who is so wrong on 80% of his explanations on the Quran, noted this fact. In his tafseer, he identifies, namlat, the lady of Naml, as belonging to the tribe of Banu Shisan. So it is the tribe that was scared of Solomon's army. Also on the story of the 'bird' that comes in the verses after that, the arabic word hud-hud, means hoopoe, but again was also the name of a South Yemen tribe, and men were often named after their tribes as well as birds.
The King of Himjar was called Hoedad; in the Bible, the king of Syria is called Ben Hadad (see 1 Kings 151. Also a very important notion is the fact that the bird Hoopoe is not build for long flights, and that Solomon would threaten a small bird with such a punishment, as cutting the throat of such a small bird is a precise job. Tair is commonly used for birds, but is also applied to non-winged beings, tayyar means fleet-flooted horse, and at-tairan is metaphorically used for marching to jihad. When Solomon says that they had been taught the language of tair, he uses the word mantiq which is used for human speech or logic, and man alone of all created beings is called haivani-natiq, speaking animal, the language of birds is called saut. The intention behind the use of tair, as of jinn cannot be disregarded.
The Tair were a conquered tribe or race and Solomon had knowledge of their language. Also mantiq means knowledge/understanding and so this verse can also mean that the Solomon and his people had great knowledge on how to use horses in battle. Important note is that Solomon clearly says, that EVERYONE of his people was taught the language/knowledge of Tair tribe/horses, not just him. So it can?t denote a ?prophet?s miracle? as this is the traditional view. Similarly jinns applies here to the nomadic tribes many of whom were recruited by the king of Tyre for Solomon, (see the Bible, chapter Kings 1,5.) So they were called not seen ones, because they came from a land and people that were not seen normally. So it refers to where they come from, not the direct situation of if they were seen or not seen at that moment by Solomon and his people. And by thus refers to foreigner/stranger. So their country and people are jinn for Solomon and his people, making them called jinns. It was by the hand of Hud-hud that brought the letter (kitab=writing) to Sheba, and he was the one who brought the throne to Solomon.
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When he reviewed the Tair, he said "How is it I do not see Hud-hud? Is he absent?
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I will punish him severely, or cut his throat, unless he bring a valid excuse."
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But he was not long in coming, and reported "I have been around where you have not been. I come from Saba with positive news.
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(Solomon) said 'We shall see if you speak the truth or you are a liar.
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Take this letter from me, and deliver it to them and withdraw, then see what reply they give in return."
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So, when the envoys came to Solomon he said "Do you wish to increase my wealth? Yet what God has given me is better than what He has given you. No. Be gratified in your present.
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Go back to them. We shall soon come with our armies which they will not be able to face. We shall drive them out of (the land) with ignominy, and they will be humbled."
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He (then) said (to his courtiers) "O you nobles, is there any one who can bring me her throne before they come to me in submission?"
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A crafty jinn (intelligent person, tribesman, person of leadership) said "I will bring it before you rise from your seat, for I am strong and trustworthy."
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But one who had knowledge of the letter, said "I will bring it to you in the twinkling of an eye." When Solomon saw it before him, (he said) "This is by the grace of my Lord that He may test me whether I am grateful or I am thankless. Yet if one is grateful, he is grateful for himself, and if one is thankless, then surely my Lord is unconcerned and magnanimous."
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(Turning to his nobles) he said "Change the appearance of her throne. Let us see if she is rightly guided, or is not guided at all."
This understanding clearly changes again the whole concept and understanding of jinn, and proves the word is used differently, based on the context. It is interesting to note the power of suggestion as a lot of the claimed powers of the mythological invisible spirits, come from these verses. As here the jinn says that he will bring the throne in a blink of an eye, and by thus people believe the jinn are as fast as light. When in normal life, people would say this, no-one will believe you do it in a blink of an eye, they know it is just an expression. But with the expressions used in the Quran, people do take it seriously. This contradicting behavior with interpretation can be seen with a lot of interpretations of the Quran. Here the jinn says, ?I?ll bring it before you rise from your seat?, which is clearly just meant as an expression. So here is the complete explained rendition
20 (Leaving the peaceful tribe of An-Naml alone, Solomon marched forward.) As he examined the cavalry, he said, ?How is it that I do not see the commander Al-hoodhood, the Hoopoe? Is he one of the absentees??
21 (Absconding from the marching army was a breach of discipline.) Solomon said, "Unless the commander presented a good reason I would punish him or demote him to a low rank."
22 But before long Al-hoodhood showed up. (He was coming back from a reconnaissance mission to the Kingdom of Queen Bilqis, Sheba). He said, "I have come with the latest news, some important and reliable information from the land of Sheba that you are not aware of.? (Their armies were planning an expedition towards the North).
23 ?Behold, the country is ruled by a Queen who has been given everything and she has a tremendous throne.?
24 "I found her and her people worshiping the sun instead of Allah. Their ego makes them think that they are doing right. Satan (the priesthood of the Sun Temple) hinders them from the Right Path. So they cannot find the Right Way."
25 "They do not understand that they must adore Allah Who brings forth from His Unseen treasures in the heavens and the earth, and Who knows all that you hide and declare."
26 "(They need to know that) there is no god but Allah, the Lord of the Supreme Control.?
27 Solomon listened to the report and decided to carry out further investigation to ascertain the truth. Said he, "We shall see whether you have told the truth or are one of the liars."
28 (He gave a letter to the Commander of the cavalry to take to the court of Sheba, and to watch their response), "Go with this letter of mine and make sure you convey it to them, and then come back with the answer they give."
29 The Queen said, "O Chiefs! Behold, a very noble letter has been conveyed to me."
30 "It is from Solomon and it says, ?With the Name of Allah, the Instant and Sustaining Source of all Mercy and Kindness.?"
31 ?Exalt not yourselves against me, but come to me as those who surrender.?? (The Kingdom of Queen Bilqis Sheba of Yemen-Abyssinia had hostile plans towards the North).
32 She said, "O Chiefs! Advise me in this matter. (You know that) I take no decisions without you
33 They said, "We have the power, we are tough in warfare, and the command is yours. Think about (other aspects of the situation) and order as you will."
34 She said, "Behold, when kings invade a town, they ruin it and humiliate its dignitaries. This is what they shall do.
35 Hence, I am going to send a gift to them and see the response that our envoys bring." (The intelligent Queen made a prudent decision disregarding the advice of her loyal chiefs. She was cognizant of King Solomon's might, and she was impressed by the benevolent message in the letter).
36 The envoys reached Solomon with the gift and a letter from the Queen. Solomon said, "What! Do you want to please me with a gift of vanity? Allah has given me better than what He has given you (material wealth and Guidance). Nay, it is you who may exult in your gift.? (Historically, the gift was studded with precious jewels and diamonds. Solomon, being a Prophet of God and a powerful emperor expected the Queen to denounce her hostile intentions in the region and to reflect about the One True God).
37 Solomon said to the envoys, ?Go back to them, (and tell them that) we verily will come to them with forces they cannot withstand. We shall drive the leaders out of power and humiliate them to shame.?
(Historically the Kingdom of Sheba flourished from 1100 to 115 B.C. At their zenith they were the richest nation in the world. Their economy was based on excellent agriculture and international trade. They had the most advanced irrigation systems of the times, with great water dams. Their Kingdom included today?s whole of Yemen, Somalia and Ethiopia, and boasting a strong army, they frequently had expansive designs further south and up north. As the inevitable result of worshiping multiple false deities, including the sun, their society was not without inequities of caste and creed. Solomon, the King and the Prophet, planned to subdue the Sheba Empire to thwart their aggressive designs and to protect the region from oppression. And he succeeded magnificently. Queen Bilqis of Sheba and her nation embraced Solomon?s Message and reverted to the worship and obedience of the One True God).
38 (When Solomon found out that the Queen was coming), he said, ?O Chiefs! Which one of you can present the best plan to get her throne before they come to me surrendering?? (1500 miles between Ma'arib, the capital of Sheba to Jerusalem.)
39 One of the strong commanders of the mountain division said, "My troops can accomplish this mission with lightening speed, before you rise up to think of and assign anyone else. Behold, I am competent and trustworthy for this job."
40 Another powerful commander, who had knowledge of the
correspondence, said, "I can accomplish the mission even sooner, before your gaze returns to you (before you having to rethink)." (Solomon dispatched the forces, and the mission was smoothly accomplished. The Queen?s throne was brought to Jerusalem before she arrived and) he saw it set in his presence. He said, "This success is a blessing from my Lord, that He may try me whether I am grateful or ungrateful. Whoever is grateful is grateful for his own good, and whoever is ungrateful, should know that my Lord is Self-Sufficient, Supremely Honorable.?
41 Solomon then said, ?Alter her throne for her that we may see whether she gets the point and comes to guidance or she remains unguided.? (Solomon?s workmen had erased the images of the sun god, inscribed sensible inscriptions and made the throne look even more gorgeous).
http//19.org/index.php?id=91,549,0,0,1,0
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Another powerful commander, who had knowledge of the correspondence, said, "I can accomplish the mission even sooner, before your gaze returns to you (before you having to rethink)." (Solomon dispatched the forces, and the mission was smoothly accomplished. The Queen?s throne was brought to Jerusalem before she arrived and) he saw it set in his presence.
Does it make any sense? Can it be accepted as the perception conveyed by the Book?
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"Thereafter lapse of time { }place on all mountains from those birds in pieces"
Singular
A part/particle of something; a piece of something. When a thing/composite unit is divided/separated/ segregated/demarcated to make one part distinct from the other only then the word can be used in relation to that composite thing.When a space/area is divided into parts we call each part as portion of that space/area. {Refer 1544}juz'an does not necessarily mean "in pieces".
It would rateher mean "separately", implying that each bird is individually placed on a different mountain.Futhermore, the context makes it clear that it is about reviving a dead nation, not about resurrection.
I agree with wakas on this topic.
Peace
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Tayr are not birds here, but thoughts. Tayr describes something which circulates, flies freely in the "atmosphere" جَوّ.
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No, both the creation from the dust witnessed and re-creations by Jesus and the re-creation witnessed by Abraham are literal accounts.
Peace
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Hello..
Salam..People are so adament to make things that are clear to something of their own choice.. This is a clear verse..
@azra..
Thoughts are thayr .. ha ha.. Four thoughts.. You are degrading your knowledge and your faith.. Whatever..Hi everyone....
In verse 2260 it is very clear it talks about birds.. Problem here for those who took it wrongly is they didn't read the verse with its real context..
When we read verse 2259 it's very obvious God showed that particular person directly (kayf) how Allah gives life to dead.. Any objection? He asked (Anna) how Allah give life? So he was given practical response from God.. Yes or No..?
Here no one needs to say why God let him die for 100 years why not 300 years or 25 years.. In that period also bodies will get decayed.. Or why let him die Allah could have let the camel OR another person die and let this person witness... Sane people here ask, why put in mountains and why four birds why not one bird why not a mountain/hill? Unnecessary questions on God's choice.. .. Isn't it?So clear 2259.. Let's look at 2260..
Ibrahim also asked the same question like the person in verse 2259 .. But God asked a question from Ibrahim.. Have not you believed? No, but to satisfy my heart.. That's key.. Ibrahim believes... He is not a Disbeliever.. So.. Based on Ibrahim's response and his curiosity God instructs. Since Ibrahim has faith that God only gives life to dead God doesn't need to show him how God gives life to dead practically like 2259. But Ibrahim's answer is satisfaction.. God is now trying to satisfy Ibrahim..
Literally he was commanded to take four birds.. Domesticate or tame them... You know it takes time.. Everyone knows.. Perhaps Zthumma may be used refer it.. So it all Ibrahim's work now.. God not involve.. How long Ibrahim takes is upto his capacity. Then once he fully tamed them all, he definitely killed them all and put portions (mixed or unmixed) of all four birds in Each hills (probably) four hills in his surroundings... As soon as he put them he doesn't need to call them.. Let them decay.. Coz Ibrahim's curocity is how God gives life to dead but knew God gives but here main point is heart satisfaction not how God does step by step like 2259.. . So, If I am, I would have waited 2 months..
So Zthumma is used perhaps to denote time. So Ibrahim was ordered to choose four.. He he gets satisfied. How? After some period.. Here calls one bird and it comes (why I say so) coz it is bizzare if he call four of them all together.. Then he calls other and so on to he sees they rush towards him and funds out they are same birds that he tamed.. Isn't that a great SATISFACTION to HEART of anyone who believes.. Yes we believe or Ibrahim believed in God and He gives life but Hearts satisfaction is something so soothing.. Ibrahim was blessed in that..
Yes Ibrahim was not shown how birds bones were clothed with flesh etc etc. But Ibrahim knew.. Satisfied.. 2259 is entirely different.. We don't know he was a believer or not but somehow he questioned to himself how God gives life to these.. So it was shown clearly... But not in case of Ibrahim.. Got it? Not below verse and compare.."And it is He who sends the winds as good tidings before His mercy until, when they have carried heavy rainclouds, We drive them to a dead land and We send down rain therein and bring forth thereby of all the fruits. Thus will We bring forth the dead; perhaps you may be reminded."
God says we send rain to dead land and and it grows again that's how we raise the dead.. God doesn't show us how He raise dead but we have to deduce since we know and we accept God is the one who gives life to dead..
So giving any other meaning to this beautiful and manifest verse will only drag you to confusion... God will..
Note.. Here Al thayri(masculine) but God has used feminine (Hunna) to denote AlThayri.. Do you remember we discussed about CATTLE (masculine) and produce milk. this is ideal example..
Thank you -
I haven't read much of your posts but I hope their quality is not like your post above.
You still have time, even it's not much important. Pondering over the Qur'an is better then over what we think, since we're students not masters.
Four thoughts.. You are degrading your knowledge and your faith.. Whatever..
I haven't said "four", you're mixing things. What do you know about my knowledge and faith to judge if they degraded? There's really no need to attack others ad hominem, it's better to act as grown-ups what we should be.
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If you want you can test your opinion by thinking about مَا يُمْسِكُهُنَّ إِلَّا اللَّهُ in 1679.
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Dear All,
I hope am not derailing this topic from the discussion of the exact subject of the thread.
I have been a traditional Sunni for many years believing in Quran and Islam from Hadith's point of view and until i came across GA Pervez translation of Quran which makes me inclined towards what people call being Quranists. Later I read many other Quranists people articles from other countries and have discussed with few in real life and to be honest now when I read Quran (in arabic) I start to feel at peace.
So one of the things which always fascinates me was why the so called miracles stopped happening anymore or how those miracles happened in the past defying physical laws of nature? is something very confusing to me. Until I read GA Pervez Tafseer. It is quite possible that even he got it some wrong and some right. there is no perfect person on this planet that have 100% understood Quran. So in the end, I resort to atleast thank God for making me believe in his oneness and not involve in the so many forms of shirk which traditional fellows are involved with.
The miracles list is very long starting from Jesus miracles, to Mohammad's (moon split, Mirage etc.) and then also Prophet Solomon's (talking to animals) or be it a prophet eaten alive by Fish and kept in its stomach, or moses parting the Sea and now including the subject verse.
I am quite satisfied in my heart with GA Pervex explanation and I know he could be wrong but atleast I know I will not be judged based on my understanding of the meaning of verses which talk about so called miracles but i would be judged based on my actions in my practical life (taheed and my dealing with people) and my responsibilities.Anyway here is the explanation of GA pervez about this particular verse.
2260
Each Nabi has been confronted with the problem of giving life to a dead nation. For instance, Abraham faced such a problem and said to Allah “What is the process by which new life may be infused into a dead nation?”. Allah asked him “Do you not believe that dead nations may receive new life?”. Abraham said “I do believe but I would like to know by what process, so that I can undertake it with full confidence.” Allah explained the process to Abraham through an example. He said “Take four untamed birds. At first they will seek to get away from you. Make them familiar with yourself gradually. This will bring about remarkable change in them. Even if you set them free and call to them, they will come to you swiftly.” This is how you must patiently reform those who rebel against your call and bring them close to yourself and make them understand and appreciate the Divine System. This is how they will receive “life.” Most certainly Allah is All-Mighty, Wise.Refhttps//www.parwez.tv/abid/mufhoom_1/by_G_A_parwez/Exposition%20of%20Quran.htm
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1- It is God who performs miracles, not the prophet. Therefore, there is nothing surprising in His performing events that are contrary to natural law.
2- The so-called natural law is Allah's way of creation. For example, the birth of living beings through sex plus birth is a way of creation. In fact, there is no spontaneous law, no automatic order. God Himself makes it happen every time, but since He always uses the same method over and over again, it is perceived by us as an automatic law. But creation directly from the earth, as in the case of Adam, is also a form of God's creation. Birth without a father, i.e. without sexual intercourse, as in the case of Jesus, is also a form of God's creation. Allah can create as He wishes in different ways and He shows us that. In the same way, the sudden rising of everyone from the dust in the Hereafter Universe, called the Lord's Floor, is an example of Allah's direct creation. The creation of universes out of nothing is another form of creation. They are all equal events, Allah says "Be" and it happens.
3- What is called a miracle is when Allah uses a different method from the one He has always used. For example, the creation of Adam and Jesus is a miracle for us in this respect. For Allah there is no difference, He does it in any way He wishes.
4- What is called a miracle is often something that happens outside of what we call the laws of nature. I said that Allah does something different from the method He has always used. Anyway, anything that is within the laws of physics can be done by civilizations that are advanced in science and technology. In that case, the events that a society with advanced technology and science would show to a less advanced society should be considered as divine miracles/evidence and they should submit to the teachings of that superior civilization and worship them? No, Allah shows us miracles outside the laws of physics so that we can be certain that it is not the work of man and that we know we are dealing with a divine miracle/proof.
The miracles of the resurrection of the dead that the prophets Abraham and Jesus were known for, are absolutely true.
https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9611877.0
Peace
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Peace all,
I believe in miracles (e.g. Conversion of stick into snake), there's nothing wrong with miracles, if one believes in an almighty creator. God may still do it, if necessary.
I think most of these metaphorizing translators are not consistent with their interpretation of all miracles in the Qur'an. For example, prophet Yusuf interpreted/predicted future events. And most of these translators (if not all) agree with it.
Is it scientifically proven that a human can interpret future events correctly? He even interpreted/predicted the exact no. of years? how?And in 2260, since there is no killing of birds in the Arabic Qur'an, I'm not of the traditional view. I'm not denying the possibility entirely, but there's no evidence in the Qur'an that God showed him reviving the dead literally.
We may think miracles, jinn etc. are against physical laws / modern science, but are not contrary to God's uniqueness/attributes described in the Qur'an.
