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Question regarding Zina

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  • S Offline
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    SwedenMajidah
    wrote on last edited by
    #13

    Salaam Hadi

    Welcome aboard the forum ;D

    1. Those who had sex with a prostitute are not sound witnesses and their testimony is not accepted.

    2. Admission by her, yes. There is a procedure for that in front of an authority (a judge, for example).

    3. Are we now talking about adultery or zina? The punishment is for zina (public sex) and the case in number 2 above.

    4. No single person, other than the spouse, has the right to accuse another, otherwise they will be lashed 80 lashes (accusation without bringing 4 witnesses). Again, adultery is not zina as long as it is not witnessed by the spouse. Because it is nobody's business (other than the spouse) to report it and it does not affect them as it does the spouse. Of course he/she has the choice to keep quiet and solve the problem. If he/she does not want to continue in the marriage, he/she has to go to the judge and do the procedure. The accused also can deny the charge, but in either case they will be divorced.

    Zina is a kind of fahisha. Not all fahisha is zina

    Peace,

    I must say that Samia explain it very logic when she says that adultery can only be zina when it's witnessed by the spouse who are the ones who will be concerned of such an act.

    To have sex when you are not married is an awful act but if you do it secretly(not public) then you cannot be punished for it in form of lashes. But instead it's between you and God and God can punish you if He wants.

    And 2433 And let those who are not able to marrycontinue to be chasteuntil God enriches them of His bounty......

    Peace
    Maria

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      Allen
      wrote on last edited by
      #14

      Peace,

      I must say that Samia explain it very logic when she says that adultery can only be zina when it's witnessed by the spouse who are the ones who will be concerned of such an act.

      To have sex when you are not married is an awful act but if you do it secretly(not public) then you cannot be punished for it in form of lashes. But instead it's between you and God and God can punish you if He wants.

      And 2433 And let those who are not able to marrycontinue to be chasteuntil God enriches them of His bounty......

      Peace
      Maria

      Zina is Zina ,no matter how it is
      -secret or open
      -married or unmarried
      -with witnesses or without witnesses.
      Can you tell me which word in arabic is used for "Adultery"?? where Quran has used that word ?

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        unknownuser
        wrote on last edited by
        #15

        Zina is Zina ,no matter how it is
        -secret or open
        -married or unmarried
        -with witnesses or without witnesses.
        Can you tell me which word in arabic is used for "Adultery"?? where Quran has used that word ?

        You are correct but realistically, "zina" cannot be prosecuted for unless it is public (where 4 witnesses constitutes it being public). Ref 4912.

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          Allen
          wrote on last edited by
          #16

          You are correct but realistically, "zina" cannot be prosecuted for unless it is public (where 4 witnesses constitutes it being public). Ref 4912.

          Show me presence of four persons lease highlight those words and put them back
          4912

          1249

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            unknownuser
            wrote on last edited by
            #17

            Show me presence of four persons Please highlight those words and put them back
            4912

            1249

            I pity you.

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              Jack
              wrote on last edited by
              #18

              Peace,

              2+2=4

              In 4912 we are told NOT to spy on one another and to avoid suspicion, now tell me what situations will produce 4 witnesses

              a) public sex

              b) the person has had sex with at least 4 different partners (most likely more than that) and they all come forward as witnesses...I say more because not all (if any) would come forward.

              c)porn, which usually has more than 4 witnesses present

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                SwedenMajidah
                wrote on last edited by
                #19

                Zina is Zina ,no matter how it is
                -secret or open
                -married or unmarried
                -with witnesses or without witnesses.
                Can you tell me which word in arabic is used for "Adultery"?? where Quran has used that word ?

                Peace,

                I can only tell you my own understandings and hopefully sis Samia or someone else with arabic knowledge can give you exactly the translation you look for and where it is.

                I guess Adultery and fornications are the same and they fall in the category of zina but only the public one the ones that are witnessed are the ones that can be put infront of the judge and there can be a penalty.

                I don't think it's more difficult than that, really. God doesn't want to put too much on our shoulders to bear and He likes the repenters and the good-doers.

                Peace
                Maria

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                  Allen
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #20

                  Peace,

                  I can only tell you my own understandings and hopefully sis Samia or someone else with arabic knowledge can give you exactly the translation you look for and where it is.

                  I guess Adultery and fornications are the same and they fall in the category of zina but only the public one the ones that are witnessed are the ones that can be put infront of the judge and there can be a penalty.

                  I don't think it's more difficult than that, really. God doesn't want to put too much on our shoulders to bear and He likes the repenters and the good-doers.

                  Peace
                  Maria

                  Dear Maria;
                  It is the question of Punishment.One should be crystal clear
                  -what is the difference between Zina and Adultery.
                  -Public act ?? ,show me the pre-requisite of four Witnesses for proving of Zina imentioned in the Quran .

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                    unknownuser
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #21

                    Dear Maria;
                    It is the question of Punishment.One should be crystal clear
                    -what is the difference between Zina and Adultery.
                    -Public act ?? ,show me the pre-requisite of four Witnesses for proving of Zina imentioned in the Quran .

                    A - Adultery is a subset of "zina".

                    B - 244, 246, 2413, 415

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                      Allen
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #22

                      A - Adultery is a subset of "zina".

                      B - 244, 246, 2413, 415

                      Please put the actual ayas (arabic text) and their translation here .Thanks
                      Along with please put the definition of Adultery and Zina and their respective Arabic equivalents used in the holy Quran.Thanks again

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                        siki
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #23

                        Please put the actual ayas (arabic text) and their translation here .Thanks
                        Along with please put the definition of Adultery and Zina and their respective Arabic equivalents used in the holy Quran.Thanks again

                        Brother Allen

                        what better explanation do you want than what Samia has already given you?

                        According to Koran a person is called a Zani , if there are 4 evidences to it (to make sure) and only then the punishment as such can be applied.

                        if you read , 24-2 ,3 the word Zani and punishment is used only in conjunction with 4 witness, and once you read further on 24-4,5,6, you will find that 4 witnesses requirement is not fulfilled, so the word Zina is not used , but only accusation is used, It does not say accusation of Zina.

                        A "fahisha" when not witnessed by 4, can only be termed as an accusation, and, becomes Zina, only when there are 4 witnesses.

                        siki

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                          Allen
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #24

                          Brother Allen

                          what better explanation do you want than what Samia has already given you?

                          According to Koran a person is called a Zani , if there are 4 evidences to it (to make sure) and only then the punishment as such can be applied.

                          if you read , 24-2 ,3 the word Zani and punishment is used only in conjunction with 4 witness, and once you read further on 24-4,5,6, you will find that 4 witnesses requirement is not fulfilled, so the word Zina is not used , but only accusation is used, It does not say accusation of Zina.

                          A "fahisha" when not witnessed by 4, can only be termed as an accusation, and, becomes Zina, only when there are 4 witnesses.

                          siki

                          This is what Samia said

                          What's your definition of adultery?

                          I use the word "zina" not adultrey. I understand adultrey as a sexual act outside wedlock. If so, this is not the definition of zina. Unmarried people can also commit zina.

                          Honestly , ,my small brain could not catch.

                          Show what definition did she put for Zina ??
                          You say what better definition ?
                          Please I request you to
                          -- Precisely define the Zina and Adultery
                          --What is the arabic word for adultery
                          -- Where it is used in the Quran
                          ---Where in the Quran it is said that to prove the act of Zina four witnesses are needed.
                          Kindly I request you to put the Arabic Ayaats + their translations .Only references are just to deceive the readers.
                          Thanks in advance

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                            siki
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #25

                            Friends , we have a problem here

                            4.15-17 If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, Take the evidence of four (Reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them, or God ordain for them some (other) way,If two men among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both. If they repent and amend, Leave them alone; for God is Oft-returning, Most Merciful,God accept the repentance of those who do evil in ignorance and repent soon afterwards; to them will God turn in mercy For God is full of knowledge and wisdom.

                            Can somebody explain above?

                            we have fornication/adultry/being committed , and we have 4 witnesses too, yet these women are not being labeled as Zanias, and even the punishement is different

                            I think brother Alen has a point.

                            siki

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                              afridi220
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #26

                              Friends , we have a problem here

                              4.15-17 If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, Take the evidence of four (Reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them, or God ordain for them some (other) way,If two men among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both. If they repent and amend, Leave them alone; for God is Oft-returning, Most Merciful,God accept the repentance of those who do evil in ignorance and repent soon afterwards; to them will God turn in mercy For God is full of knowledge and wisdom.

                              Can somebody explain above?

                              we have fornication/adultry/being committed , and we have 4 witnesses too, yet these women are not being labeled as Zanias, and even the punishement is different

                              I think brother Alen has a point.

                              siki

                              hmm What if a women accused some one that so and so person raped me does she need to produce four wetness's??????

                              peace

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                                unknownuser
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #27

                                hmm What if a women accused some one that so and so person raped me does she need to produce four wetness's??????

                                peace

                                Self testimony?

                                It seems more concerned with testimonies as opposed to physical witnesses, but in one case, four witnesses are required.

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                                  afridi220
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #28

                                  Self testimony?

                                  It seems more concerned with testimonies as opposed to physical witnesses, but in one case, four witnesses are required.

                                  Yes that is what the sunni clergy men are saying but on earth will rap a lady in Asian are middle Eastern countries they will get kill that is not possible and asking a girl to produce 4 witnesses is not fair.

                                  Or in other words men are allowed to rap girls if they are Alon?????

                                  Then let me say this is not justice.

                                  peace

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                                    Allen
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #29

                                    Yes that is what the sunni clergy men are saying but on earth will rap a lady in Asian are middle Eastern countries they will get kill that is not possible and asking a girl to produce 4 witnesses is not fair.

                                    Or in other words men are allowed to rap girls if they are Alon?????

                                    Then let me say this is not justice.

                                    peace

                                    All these confusions arise due to lack of precise definition of
                                    1Zina
                                    2Adultery
                                    3Rape
                                    If these are defined precisely then their ways of proving the act and punishments can be ascertained.Otherwise ignore ignore ignore ignore
                                    How does Quran define them ??

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                                      SwedenMajidah
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #30

                                      Peace all,

                                      I don't know why so many thinks that Quran should answer all questions you can possible have!?

                                      Quran is fully detailed and it covers all subjects that is important for our morals and ethics. It gives us straight answers sometimes but also clues for further studies and pondering by its many tales and examples.

                                      So why say that Quran lack something?

                                      It's better to say that we lack in understanding of the common sense that God seems to point out, that we shall use, when He often says "of people who do understands" or "people who take heed" and "people who use their minds" etc.

                                      It's not logic sense to claim that Quran shall cover all different kind of lets say crimes and also define their penalties. That's where a court is to be involved and they cannot sentence someone harder than the Quran advises. So to stone someone to death when actually Quran says 100 lashes is totally wrong. You can always judge milder but not harder.

                                      Peace Maria

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                                        Allen
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #31

                                        Peace all,

                                        I don't know why so many thinks that Quran should answer all questions you can possible have!?

                                        Quran is fully detailed and it covers all subjects that is important for our morals and ethics. It gives us straight answers sometimes but also clues for further studies and pondering by its many tales and examples.

                                        So why say that Quran lack something?

                                        It's better to say that we lack in understanding of the common sense that God seems to point out, that we shall use, when He often says "of people who do understands" or "people who take heed" and "people who use their minds" etc.

                                        It's not logic sense to claim that Quran shall cover all different kind of lets say crimes and also define their penalties. That's where a court is to be involved and they cannot sentence someone harder than the Quran advises. So to stone someone to death when actually Quran says 100 lashes is totally wrong. You can always judge milder but not harder.

                                        Peace Maria

                                        Then why to differentiate between Zina and Adultery when there is no such distinction ??

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                                          SwedenMajidah
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #32

                                          Peace,

                                          Well don't accuse me for doing that.

                                          Maria

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