The ?God Alone? Challenge
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tick tock...
lol!. brother just ban me already. you have done it before and we have a long argument about your justification. it doesn't surprise me if i said PM have no unity that you will get mad and gather you allies against me. im use to it.
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DArgento,
People of the book (ahla al kitabi) NEVER, I repeat NEVER refers to 'quran followers'. Always, repeat ALWAYS refers to previous scriptures. See (364-65, 370-71, 398-99, 4171, 515, 519, 577 etc...) Futhermore, if ahla al kitabi referred to quran followers, some of the other verses would sound absolutely ridiculous.
You are correct. I was wrong.
That messenger is not/ cannot be Rashad in 519. I am not going to get into whether he's a messenger or not. We have 84 different threads about that subject anyway.
My initial thread was not about RK, but about people believe or disbelieving a messenger after Muhammed. About people worshiping the Quran and not GOD as the true source of the religion.
Furthermore, the message to all the messengers is the same. No-one brings any different teachings. see 4143, 4213
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I have to disagree with this. Prophets bring new laws, each messenger bring different proofs etc. Even certain messengers were delivered to specific people like Jesus the ethic people of Jews. The message is the same, but different elements of the message are brought with that message. Abraham was giving the practices of Submission (2132 2127-2, Muhammad was given the Quran etc.
As for 230, It's quiet simple really, no extra-ordinary manipulations necessary to achieve a desired result. READ THE NEXT VERSE. Also, tell me where in the ARABIC is 'temporary God' in that verse?
it 'temporary god' NOT 'temporary God'
Plus RK place it in parenthesis to show that those words are not part of the verse themselves but implied.This is touchy issue. And honestly, it sound wired to me too. How can Satan be a ?representative.? But if you look at the context you will see. Here are so important question
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If GOD was planning to place Adam as a representative on earth why would he place him in paradise and then only evict him after he tasted the tree (23?
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If His plan was to place ONE representative on earth, why will GOD place ALL humans on earth to be subject to Satan influence (1539, 7172)?
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IF GOD was planning to place one representative on earth, why would evict them to earth (727)? Why evict someone if they were no meant to be there in the first place (727)? Unless the representative was already chosen for earth (1539).
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If Adam was initially meant to be a representative, since he is gone (dead to us), who is the representative now?
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If Adam was initially meant to be a representative, since he is gone (dead to us), why was only Satan specifically (not a devil) given respite during this period (1762)?
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If humans (believers) were meant to be representativeS on earth, why would GOD say He is placing ONE representative? Especially not ignoring the fact that Adam and Eve existed. Was Adam alone meant to be the representative and not Eve?
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If you assume 230 is referring to man you are wrong because it specifically mention Adam. Adam was a real human being who lived and died. Assuming 230 refer to mankind, how can it be for mankind when it specifically mentions Adam?
Adam as a representative, even mankind as a representative is not suitable answers to these simply questions.
HOWEVER, God vanish Satan first for not submitting to GOD (713). Then Satan told his plans for ALL humans (714-15, 3882-83). But here is the most important part, Adam and Eve were still in Paradise, not earth (719) during this time. It is clear to me that 230 - 33 was to expose Satan. That is why GOD challenge the angel then told the ANGELS He knows what they conceal (233).
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Can you explain what relevance this story has to do with the authenticity of RK's message?
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Can you explain what relevance this story has to do with the authenticity of RK's message?
what story? plus this thread is not about RK. everyone is assuming im talking about RK but i talking about any messenger after muhammed. what mission would he have? would you believe it especially if it not mention in the Quran. that is the real question people are avoiding. are you worship the quran as the only source or GOD himself?
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http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=15657.0
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I am sensitive about baseless commentary/accusations, especially if they include me.
Unfortunately for you, you again stated the same baseless comment. If you cannot provide evidence for your statements, you will either have to rescind your comments publicly or your case will be referred to admin/moderators, as it is a rule violation.
You will be given one week as of now to provide evidence.
You shouldn't be a moderator and get involved in heated debates.
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The ?God Alone? Challenge
Can one worship the Quran alone and not GOD alone?
Here is the truth. The concept of ?Quran alone? have already been greatly blurred and corrupted by many individual seeking material gain and cheat fame. This concept of ?Quran alone? have been used and abuse by many especially those claiming to be ?progressive muslims? yet have not provided any progression in simply definition of quranic terms like salat. Many with the ?quran alone movement? have no foundation. Evidence of this is the great disagreement and no consensus with the movement on basic issue such as the definition of salat, zakat or hajj.
Through this corruption and abuse of the concept of ?Quran alone? as a source for religious guidance, they fail to realize that GOD is the ONLY source for religious guidance. Meaning, GOD is the only authority not the Quran. WE follow the Quran because we believe it is GOD words. It is not Quran alone but GOD alone. Don?t believe me? Just answer these questions and see for yourself
The ?God Alone? Challenge
1.Can GOD reveal other religious guidance beside what is mention in the Quran?
a.Yes, GOD is the source of the religion (6114).
b.No, the Quran is fully detailed with regards to all religious guidance.
c.I don?t know I will need evidence I guess2.If a proven messenger of GOD after Muhammad delivers a divine explanation for one verse in the Quran that was supported by evidence, would you follow that explanation even thought that explanation is not mention in the Quran?
a.Yes, I believe and follow what GOD revealed (7456)
b.No, it not in the Quran and the Quran is fully detailed.
c.I only follow it because it was supported by evidence and not because it was divinely revealed to that messenger3.Can there be another messenger after Muhammad who is not a prophet but explains previous scripture and message from GOD?
a.Yes, God send messengers to explain (519). GOD teaches the Koran (552).
b.No! The Quran is fully detailed and needs to explanations.
c.I don?t know4.Is GOD limited to what he revealed in the Quran, or can He reveal other religious explanation and guidance?
a.Yes, GOD is not limited to anything.
b.No, the Quran is fully detailed and if GOD reveal something else it contradict the claim of it being fully detailed.
c.I don?t know5.Does an authentic messenger of GOD after Muhammad proven false because what was revealed to him is not mention in the Quran thought the message agree with the message of the Quran and he provided proof of it?
a.No, GOD is the source of the religion can reveal what he pleases (6114).
b.Yes, the Quran is fully detailed and anything reveal to that messenger is false or his mistake since it not in the Quran.
c.I don?t know.6.Does following the authority of a messenger of GOD with regards to the message delivered to him equals shirk?
a.No, because GOD is the source of the religion and GOD is not limited to previous scripture and can reveal what he pleases (6114).
b.Yes, the Quran is fully detailed and following anything not explicitly mention in the Quran including proven divinely inspired explanations would be shirk.
c.I don?t know.7.If Muhammad actually did say that salat means rituals prayer, and zakat is charity, would you follow him?
a.Yes (581).
b.No, the Quran is fully detailed and anything not mention in the Quran should not be follow. Even with regards to the messenger of GOD and what was reveal to him.
c.I don?t know.8.Do you make distinction about GOD messengers by thinking some are right while others were wrong?
a.No, all messengers deliver a message from GOD (7456).
b.Yes, some made mistake with regards to what was divinely inspired to them and can misguide people.
c.I don?t know.9.Do you make distinction about GOD messengers by believing some while disbelieving another?
a.No, I make no distinction among any of His messengers. I hear, and I obey (2285).
b.Yes, I believe in some and reject some and find a middle ground (4150).
c.I don?t know.10.Is GOD the only source of the religion of submission or the Quran?
a.GOD (6114).
b.Quran
c.I don?t know.You brought some important points. But there is something I want to add.
To say WE follow the Quran alone is OK. But do the ants follow the Quran? Don't they worship God? Do the mountains and stars follow the Quran? Don't they worship God? The Quran is for humans on Earth. What made you think there are no other creatures other than Humans? And what made you think there is no life except on Earth?
So saying WE follow Quran needs understanding.
Second you brought up the issue of different salaat methods and haj concept. Well the animals do zikr in their own way and worship God in their own way. You are assuming that there has to be an agreement for something to be valid. Well there is agreement on the Quran by all Muslims. Well the vast majority of them. That is sufficient. Its when you don't agree to disagree that the problem comes. I personally do not fear differing salaat methods. What worries me is this talk of shirk and idol worship. Because this nullifies the other's faith. The debate is no longer between a believer and a believer but between a believer and a mushrik.
Third about Ahlul Kitab. Ahlul Kitab are also followers of Quran. If a person follows the Torah he is following Quran by default. The same with the Gospel. But many Jews and Christians do not do this. Please read attached File I prepared concerning the previous scriptures and the Quranic verses pertaining to them
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You brought some important points. But there is something I want to add.
To say WE follow the Quran alone is OK. But do the ants follow the Quran? Don't they worship God? Do the mountains and stars follow the Quran? Don't they worship God? The Quran is for humans on Earth. What made you think there are no other creatures other than Humans? And what made you think there is no life except on Earth?
So saying WE follow Quran needs understanding.
i understand your point
Second you brought up the issue of different salaat methods and haj concept. Well the animals do zikr in their own way and worship God in their own way. You are assuming that there has to be an agreement for something to be valid. Well there is agreement on the Quran by all Muslims. Well the vast majority of them. That is sufficient. Its when you don't agree to disagree that the problem comes. I personally do not fear differing salaat methods. What worries me is this talk of shirk and idol worship. Because this nullifies the other's faith. The debate is no longer between a believer and a believer but between a believer and a mushrik.
what about those who say, any ritual is wrong? who say salat as a ritual is wrong? what is your opinion on those individuals?
Third about Ahlul Kitab. Ahlul Kitab are also followers of Quran. If a person follows the Torah he is following Quran by default. The same with the Gospel. But many Jews and Christians do not do this. Please read attached File I prepared concerning the previous scriptures and the Quranic verses pertaining to them
i will read it
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You shouldn't be a moderator and get involved in heated debates.
Thanks for the advice but I will continue to request evidence in so-called "heated" debates.
Bigmo, when it comes to me, Wakas only gets heated when I say something about ?Progressive Muslims?. I can say ?Christian are all dummies? with no evidence for that statement as to why they are dummies. But as soon as I say truthful observations about PM having no consensus, they are divided etc, we heard the ?time to ban SHM? drums beating.
No moderator or admin has the power to ban anyone. It must be a group decision, unless its an obvious spammer etc.
Indeed. But you are the prosecutor. The moderators are the jury that you are trying to convince. I will be honest with you and all members, I have been ban before and when I ask about the justification for it and presented evidence that other people were not prosecuted for similar actions in my ?Voices of Minority? thread, Wakas came with many excuses. Immediately I knew the he doesn?t really want fairness, but to shut up anyone who speaks bad about PM. A quasi-dictator.
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Should I be Ban from free-minds?
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Peace SHM,
I will be honest with you and all members, I have been ban before and when I ask about the justification for it and presented evidence that other people were not prosecuted for similar actions in my ?Voices of Minority? thread, Wakas came with many excuses. Immediately I knew the he doesn?t really want fairness, but to shut up anyone who speaks bad about PM. A quasi-dictator.
If you're going to be honest, why not link to the thread where it was clearly spelled out for you that your claims of "facts" were, in fact, unevidenced. That is a forum rules violation designed to maintain the integrity of debates.
I'm not sure why you think yourself to be above the forum rules but you are not. And this harping on you getting banned for speaking out against PM/FM is tiresome. Many people have come and gone who speak their minds. Nothing wrong with it as long as the forum rules are followed. It's really simple man.
It seems to me like you want to be a victim and you want some sympathy. I'm sure there are other forums for that. This one is for the discussion of islam via the qur'an.
May peace be upon you,
Tay -
Peace SHM,
If you're going to be honest, why not link to the thread where it was clearly spelled out for you that your claims of "facts" were, in fact, unevidenced. That is a forum rules violation designed to maintain the integrity of debates.
I'm not sure why you think yourself to be above the forum rules but you are not. And this harping on you getting banned for speaking out against PM/FM is tiresome. Many people have come and gone who speak their minds. Nothing wrong with it as long as the forum rules are followed. It's really simple man.
It seems to me like you want to be a victim and you want some sympathy. I'm sure there are other forums for that. This one is for the discussion of islam via the qur'an.
May peace be upon you,
Tayif you read the thread, you will understand my point. i not saying im "above" the rules. but if the rules only applies to me when i mention somethings about PM and not other people who make similar comments, then what does that say? Why dont you post the link where i point out individuals who did the same but never prosecuted like me?
May peace be upon you Tay. If you think i should be ban, then please take part in the survey. how can i deny statistical information.
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Wow, lots of politics here I see.
Anyways about those who say rituals are wrong, then its best to understand it your own way. Nothing is really wrong unless its harmful to you or others. If a guy wants to pray running around in the rain, hey, if it makes him get closer to his creator, then let him do it.
I don't know who you mean by progressive Muslims. The ones I know of them are the ones who think sex is halal if its between consenting adults and eating pork is OK and so on. You know, liberals. they used to have a website called Muslimswakeup. They say they went down after a few good years.
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peace
1.Can GOD reveal other religious guidance beside what is mention in the Quran?
God's guidance can be found through reason...so "yes" would be the answer. God's guidance is present everywhere.
2.If a proven messenger of GOD after Muhammad delivers a divine explanation for one verse in the Quran that was supported by evidence, would you follow that explanation even thought that explanation is not mention in the Quran?
Well, if what that "messenger" says is true, then why we must agree with it. If it's not true, then we must reject it.
3.Can there be another messenger after Muhammad who is not a prophet but explains previous scripture and message from GOD?
well, I don't know why he would have any more knowledge than us about the Quran. But again, it doesn't matter who is a messenger and who isn't, we just listen to what they have to say and if its true, we follow it. It really is that simple.
6.Does following the authority of a messenger of GOD with regards to the message delivered to him equals shirk?
Well, if I follow someone's teachings, regardless of whether they are false or not, I must recognize his authority. You know, since it's HIS teachings, he decides what his teachings really are.
But if we are following the truth, then the only authority is truth itself.
We don't follow people, we follow the truth. People are imperfect, they make mistakes, so we can't blindly accept everything someone says. When we read or listen to what someone has to say, we take the good and leave out the bad.7.If Muhammad actually did say that salat means rituals prayer, and zakat is charity, would you follow him?
If he could prove to me that ritual prayer actually has benefits and I would be worse off if I didn't do it, then yes I would follow him. If he said that we should give charity, in this case he need not explain to me the benefits because I already know that charity is a good thing, so I would follow him on that too.
8.Do you make distinction about GOD messengers by thinking some are right while others were wrong?
I believe everyone's a "messenger" when they speak the truth. The truth is from god, so when you speak it, you are channeling god's words through you, you're acting as god's agent.
None of us are correct all the time, so none of the messengers you're talking about were perfect. They were all right and wrong.10.Is GOD the only source of the religion of submission or the Quran?
I don't give a **** about religion. I do, however, care about morality, and morality is reached through truth and reason. Reality is the source of morality.
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I don't know who you mean by progressive Muslims. The ones I know of them are the ones who think sex is halal if its between consenting adults and eating pork is OK and so on. You know, liberals. they used to have a website called Muslimswakeup. They say they went down after a few good years.
By Progressive Muslim i mean a movement to redefine islam. Thoes who say no ritual salat and only abandon traditional views SIMPLY because it is traditional (not if it is right or wrong). Such basis judgment is contra productive to progression.
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By Progressive Muslim i mean a movement to redefine islam. Thoes who say no ritual salat and only abandon traditional views SIMPLY because it is traditional (not if it is right or wrong). Such basis judgment is contra productive to progression.
I don't think anyone here does this. You seem to force your own view on people so you can make your "arguments." I am perfectly fine with praying the traditional way. Brother Alen is one person I know who actually does this, yet doesn't follow the hadith has guidance or law. "PM" simply states the traditional way is not the only way.
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By Progressive Muslim i mean a movement to redefine islam. Thoes who say no ritual salat and only abandon traditional views SIMPLY because it is traditional (not if it is right or wrong). Such basis judgment is contra productive to progression.
I don't see your point. If someone says salaat is not physical and its spiritual like thinking about God or doing some form of zikr or doing charity works that connects you do God and bowing and prostrating is of a more spiritual and less physical function, it does not mean he does not believe in salaat. Its just he has a different understanding of salaat.
There are many muslims whp pray everyday in the mosque all 5 prayers and even more yet you can't trust him with a dime. The Ayatollahs in Iran and the Islamist in Sudan and the War lords in Afghanistan all do these prayers. Many would pray the fajr in the mosque and recite Quran all night long yet they have shown us nothing but corruption, crimes and hypocrysy. So whats your point?
Now it is difficult to adjust to a situation where people understand and do things differently. Especially in Islam where we are used to Muslims all prtaying and fasting and doing haj almost identically and at the same time and often at the same place, row by row and column by column. Yet it has not changed many of us as humans for the better. Osama Bin Laden does all these things and more, yet look at him.
There is more to Islam than physical rituals.
I don't know what is it some people have about you, but at the same time I am not sure what is it thats bothering you if people have different interpretation.
The bottom line to me is this.
If God wanted to, He couldn't have made sure the Koran answers all these question tooth and nail. He could have made sure there can only be one interpretation for these rituals. But the Koran did not. So maybe there is a wisdom in all this.
Look at the verses in the Koran about the kuffar and judgement day. About the believers and paradise. About the good deeds and bad. About the prophets and their mission and propagation. So much verses and Surahs talk about these things. About our deeds being recorded and we will all face our creator and answer to our deeds. They will be those who will be happy and pleased and those who would regret their deeds they left behind them. It leaves no room for assumptions. So many verses talk about God Himself, His infinite Wisdom, His mercy, His bountiness and favors on mankind. His creation and His might and His sole role in the universe and how everything is under His command and domain. We may not know what hell and paradise really is. But we do know we will be judged and we will be facing an after life and we are here for a purpose. Thats the beef.
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If God wanted to, He couldn't have made sure the Koran answers all these question tooth and nail. He could have made sure there can only be one interpretation for these rituals. But the Koran did not. So maybe there is a wisdom in all this.
that is my point. there is a great abuse of the "quran alone" term and the Quran claims of it being fully detailed. people selectively apply there intrepreatation of these two concept then accuse others of not following the Koran alone.
I not against different level of understanding. I remember there was an individual within this forum who believe everything in the Quran was symbolic (from messenger to angels etc). Now to me that was very extreme, but it doesnt mean his understand doesn't bring some benefits. So im not against different level of understanding. But to subjectively apply the criteria of "quran alone" is wrong. SO made made this challenge.
