The ?God Alone? Challenge
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that is my point. there is a great abuse of the "quran alone" term and the Quran claims of it being fully detailed. people selectively apply there intrepreatation of these two concept then accuse others of not following the Koran alone.
I not against different level of understanding. I remember there was an individual within this forum who believe everything in the Quran was symbolic (from messenger to angels etc). Now to me that was very extreme, but it doesnt mean his understand doesn't bring some benefits. So im not against different level of understanding. But to subjectively apply the criteria of "quran alone" is wrong. SO made made this challenge.
Aha, I see your point. OK, by the way you have a tendency to assume people know what you mean. Not everyone here has been in this forum for years. Now as far as those who say only Koran should be followed and anyone else is therefore disobeying the command of the Koran by not relying on the Koran alone. Or that relying on anything else means the Koran is not fully detailed and therefore the person is disobeying God, I think the best approach is ask him about specific answers. Of course he is not going to be able to answer them from the Koran.
You know I have been through this. There is a psychological need to find answers. There is still some shame to say that there are no specifics. Question about Qibla and haj and salaat are very sensitive. And sometimes we think that our answers to those is going to shape our legitimacy. Its the 1st things people ask. How do you know how to pray? This can create a defensive complex. Then we insist that the Koran explains it, when we really know it doesn't. Or we say we got it from the prophet and passed along by his companions. Then the Koranist will ask so why does the Koran mention wadu but not the 5 salaat. Or why the fajr or Isha is mentioned but not the rest. We could have also go the wadu passed down, so why is it mentioned. Why safa marwa is mentioned but not stoning the devil. Why qibla but no azhan. It goes in circles.
There is no way out of it. There are no answers to these questions. Why should we have to find the answers when the Koran didn't? Are we to be more concerned about these things than the Koran? You see once you take it upon yourself to answer these questions you are going to get sandwiched. You will never be consistent. The Koranist can never say they have the answers and the traditionalist are never going to be able to refute the Koran's authority. Thats the beef.
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By Progressive Muslim i mean a movement to redefine islam. Thoes who say no ritual salat and only abandon traditional views SIMPLY because it is traditional (not if it is right or wrong). Such basis judgment is contra productive to progression.
In that case you and me are in agreement .... but you are going the wrong way about it, take a break.
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There is no way out of it. There are no answers to these questions. Why should we have to find the answers when the Koran didn't? Are we to be more concerned about these things than the Koran? You see once you take it upon yourself to answer these questions you are going to get sandwiched. You will never be consistent. The Koranist can never say they have the answers and the traditionalist are never going to be able to refute the Koran's authority. Thats the beef.
Bigmo, you are truly a smart person in my eyes. I couldn't have said it better myself. Thats why (to me) this "debate" and "re-definition" on salat is some what pointless. I realize what you have said about four to five years ago when i participate in this forum (and then decided to stop debating it). And to this date, no one has brought any tangible concert evidence on what salat is or is not. To me it just proves two things;
(1) "You will never be consistent." Everyone is using external source, from article, translations, science, life, opinions etc etc etc to understand the Quran. The difference is it some admit it, will other don't. Sunnis admit is BUT try to justify it. Those who claim "quran alone" simply don't admit it in my view.
(2) It proves the traditional and universal understanding of salat is not wrong. if so, GOD within the koran would have blatantly rejected that understanding and interpretations of it and not beat around the bush (2189). But it doesn't.
would you agree?
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By Progressive Muslim i mean a movement to redefine islam. Thoes who say no ritual salat and only abandon traditional views SIMPLY because it is traditional (not if it is right or wrong). Such basis judgment is contra productive to progression.
In that case you and me are in agreement .... but you are going the wrong way about it, take a break.
that has been my case since the start. here is the problem, because i can be harsh, people think im "rankling" or somthing. that is not the case. and if you read the result of my survey, the majority agree with my view about consensus, progression and clarity on issues of islam with PM. http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=15692.0;attach=1275
what i want is information. i simply want to know if the progressive muslim movement is actually PROGRESSING? its that simply.
What we need to ask yourself is;
Is this forum actually solving problems or creating them?
Is the progressive Muslim movement actually solving problems or creating them? I think these are simply questions that can be answer.however, when i ask that question, or make such statement, i am accuse of attention seeking or i need "to take a break". you know what i will post that in a thread
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that has been my case since the start. here is the problem, because i can be harsh, people think im "rankling" or somthing. that is not the case. and if you read the result of my survey, the majority agree with my view about consensus, progression and clarity on issues of islam with PM. http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=15692.0;attach=1275
what i want is information. i simply want to know if the progressive muslim movement is actually PROGRESSING? its that simply.
What we need to ask yourself is;
Is this forum actually solving problems or creating them?
Is the progressive Muslim movement actually solving problems or creating them? I think these are simply questions that can be answer.however, when i ask that question, or make such statement, i am accuse of attention seeking or i need "to take a break". you know what i will post that in a thread
People who constantly study and seek to gain a better understanding (if you want to call them PM, ok) progress and are seeking to become better muslims. Maybe you're confused? No one that I know of here says that, for example, x salat method is the only way and all others are wrong. It's ironic because the people who follow hadith are the ones guilty of this.
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the majority agree with my view about consensus, progression and clarity on issues of islam with PM
Does it matter what the majority agrees with? It's what we ourselves find. We don't find it worth our time, we leave. We want it out of cyberspace, we make our case...so far the case for it's dissolution or the bad it brings, is quite shaky being opinion based with no evidence besides "anonymous people in the majority (4-5 people on a forum of 2000 something members) agree to some questions thus they must automatically have the same outlook as I do".
what i want is information. i simply want to know if the progressive muslim movement is actually PROGRESSING? its that simply.
What you defined as a progressive movement By Progressive Muslim i mean a movement to redefine islam. Thoes who say no ritual salat and only abandon traditional views SIMPLY because it is traditional (not if it is right or wrong). Such basis judgment is contra productive to progression.
simply chucking away stuff rather than on the basis of right or wrong is hardly the norm amongst members here. Thus this is a misleading question. Most no one here will tell you "we do this because it's oh so cool to thumb our nose at convention". They will give you reasoning as to why they think it right or wrong. Thus if you want to know about this "movement", you have to go look somewhere else.
Is this forum actually solving problems or creating them?
No forum is meant to solve or create problems. It's meant as a place for discussion. That is all. Once again, it depends on individuals and what they take from it, whether it is a book, the tv or a forum.
Is the progressive Muslim movement actually solving problems or creating them? I think these are simply questions that can be answer.
Once again, find this "progressive Muslim movement" as defined above somewhere else. Better yet, ask people this, exactly how you defined this movement. Let's see who is going to say "yeah we did it 'cause tradition is so uncool".
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that has been my case since the start. here is the problem, because i can be harsh, people think im "rankling" or somthing. that is not the case. and if you read the result of my survey, the majority agree with my view about consensus, progression and clarity on issues of islam with PM. http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=15692.0;attach=1275
what i want is information. i simply want to know if the progressive muslim movement is actually PROGRESSING? its that simply.
What we need to ask yourself is;
Is this forum actually solving problems or creating them?
Is the progressive Muslim movement actually solving problems or creating them? I think these are simply questions that can be answer.however, when i ask that question, or make such statement, i am accuse of attention seeking or i need "to take a break". you know what i will post that in a thread
Thats a good question, and I myself asked that question. Is the movement to rely on the Koran as a sole source of inspiration for Muslims benefiting the reformist programe or hurting it. But once again it goes down to these rituals. This is because Sunni Islam's strongest argument is still about these rituals. Hence the constant need to find "the" answer. As you said, some of these answers are really desperate attempts and may sound like an attempt to escape the issues by changing the meaning of the salaat. But I disagree with you that they need outside sources to do that. The salaat HAS different meanings in the Koran and there is no need for anyone to look for outside sources to show that. They may use outside sources to do that, but they don't need those sources. Someone is trying to to convince someone else and so he relies on an outside source. The fact that he relies on any outside source is an indication that his answer can not be detected by the Koran explicitly. Traditionalist are afraid of this trend more than you think. This is because they fear the authority of the Koran. Once the masses get into it, there will be all kinds of opinions about these things. They fear that. The Koran is not a secretive book and we all have the same verses, so the same issues we are dealing with will be dealt by all kinds of people. Right now those debating these issues are a minority but growing. Its the authority the Koran has on the Muslim masses that is causing this fear of the Koranist.
I don't think you need an answer for these questions. There is no need to feel ashamed. Why should we answer what the Koran did not answer. If you want to pray 2 times a day and face the whatever, then you can do that from the Koran. You can also pray 3 or even 5. Even if they say where did you get the 5, you can also ask them how do you know its 2 or 3. Just because 2 are mentioned does not mean there is only 2. Someone can say the Koran uses tasbih for Salat and use these verses
Bear patiently what they say, and glorify your Lord with His praise before the rising of the sun, and before its setting, and during some of the hours of the night glorify Him, and at the sides of the day, that you may become pleased with the reward which God shall give you. (20114)
Glory be to God whenever you reach evening and whenever you rise in the morning. All praise is for Him in the heavens and on Earth, in the late afternoon, and whenever you reach the noon. (3017-1
Everyone can find his explanation in the Koran but he can not refute someone else.
Those who barge in and accuse others of disobeying the koran and attacking others as bringing innovation and abandoning the Quran, practicing Zoroastrianism and shirk and following the pagan rituals are the same people when asked a couple of question have no answer themselves.
And those who barge in and accuse others of abandoning the Sunnah and the consensus of the Ummah and following vain desires and bringing in divisions and innovation into the religion and are deviant apostates when asked to provide evidence for any of this from the Koran are silent.
There is no way out of it. One side can not provide the answers and thus have no business accusing others, and the other side can not refute the authority of the Koran and thus have no business accusing others.
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Those who barge in and accuse others of disobeying the koran and attacking others as bringing innovation and abandoning the Quran, practicing Zoroastrianism and shirk and following the pagan rituals are the same people when asked a couple of question have no answer themselves.
And those who barge in and accuse others of abandoning the Sunnah and the consensus of the Ummah and following vain desires and bringing in divisions and innovation into the religion and are deviant apostates when asked to provide evidence for any of this from the Koran are silent.
There is no way out of it. One side can not provide the answers and thus have no business accusing others, and the other side can not refute the authority of the Koran and thus have no business accusing others.
Bigmo for president!
wise words indeed. i think you have a good understanding
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No forum is meant to solve or create problems. It's meant as a place for discussion. That is all. Once again, it depends on individuals and what they take from it, whether it is a book, the tv or a forum.
Savage_carrot, i have alot of repsect for you but i have to disagree with this statement. forum are meant to help solve problems, educated, and answer questions THROUGH discussion. Are so how suggesting that free-minds.org has no purpose but just to have discussions? That doesn't sound logical especially base on the selective articles it presents on it main page.
Once again, find this "progressive Muslim movement" as defined above somewhere else. Better yet, ask people this, exactly how you defined this movement. Let's see who is going to say "yeah we did it 'cause tradition is so uncool".
please dont become sensitive like Wakas when i discuss PM. PM it is an organization. it a movement. free-mind.org is the project of proressivemuslims.org which as an agenda to http//progressivemuslims.org/organization.htm. Im not the one creating these labels. Some within the movement indeed reject anything traditional, but not all. Now im not against the movement or the organization. All im saying is, can you determine if the project, free-minds.org is solving problems or creating them? confusing issues or clarifying them? these questions carry no insult or attack, they are indeed valid questions. Dont you ask question like this before you participate or help organization or movements?
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please dont become sensitive like Wakas when i discuss PM. PM it is an organization. it a movement. free-mind.org is the project of proressivemuslims.org which as an agenda to http//progressivemuslims.org/organization.htm. Im not the one creating these labels. Some within the movement indeed reject anything traditional, but not all. Now im not against the movement or the organization. All im saying is, can you determine if the project, free-minds.org is solving problems or creating them? confusing issues or clarifying them? these questions carry no insult or attack, they are indeed valid questions. Dont you ask question like this before you participate or help organization or movements?
I believe sister Nadia specifically asking about your definition of PM. You stated "By Progressive Muslim i mean a movement to redefine islam. Thoes who say no ritual salat and only abandon traditional views SIMPLY because it is traditional (not if it is right or wrong). Such basis judgment is contra productive to progression." As far as I know, this is simply not true. I addressed this earlier in the thread and you did not respond.
As for your questions above, people who believe in the quran alone and wish to better their understanding of the quran and reality through study believe they are solving problems. This is purely a subjective question; I don't see how it would get us anywhere? Obviously we think we're "solving problems," bettering ourselves and increasing our knowledge. Whereas some others might not. I hope this answers your question.
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Savage_carrot, i have alot of repsect for you but i have to disagree with this statement. forum are meant to help solve problems, educated, and answer questions THROUGH discussion. Are so how suggesting that free-minds.org has no purpose but just to have discussions? That doesn't sound logical especially base on the selective articles it presents on it main page.
Forums are meant for discussion (arguments in reality). This is a fact. You can have an agony aunt forum "meant for solving problems" but that doesn't mean the problem is/will/was ever meant to be solved. Or if it's a problem at all. In conceptual/theoretical discussions, there might not be any clear right/wrong/correct/incorrect answer and that's the way it is. A forum is a place for discussion between lots of people, there are no self appointed, or "officially appointed" Mr./Ms. Fixits (guaranteed to solve all your problems without a fee) here. THROUGH discussion...one takes what they do and it is what it is. It's very simple. Another thing, you need to get your definations straight. FM/PM/Forums/Websites etc.
please dont become sensitive like Wakas when i discuss PM. PM it is an organization. it a movement. free-mind.org is the project of proressivemuslims.org which as an agenda to http//progressivemuslims.org/organization.htm. Im not the one creating these labels. Some within the movement indeed reject anything traditional, but not all. Now im not against the movement or the organization. All im saying is, can you determine if the project, free-minds.org is solving problems or creating them? confusing issues or clarifying them? these questions carry no insult or attack, they are indeed valid questions. Dont you ask question like this before you participate or help organization or movements?
sigh we're back to it again. How many more times... If YOU think it's helped you great, if YOU don't know, asking people if it's helped them and making up your mind based on that is not really the way to go about it, because one doesn't have the whole picture. If you think it hasn't helped you, then thats fine too...it might've helped even ONE person out there. What about 19.org and it's forums? Have you any research on that? I'd like to read it, for research purposes.
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sigh we're back to it again. How many more times... If YOU think it's helped you great, if YOU don't know, asking people if it's helped them and making up your mind based on that is not really the way to go about it, because one doesn't have the whole picture. If you think it hasn't helped you, then thats fine too...it might've helped even ONE person out there. What about 19.org and it's forums? Have you any research on that? I'd like to read it, for research purposes.
why dont you conduct a survey then?
19.org purpose is to promote the 19 sign. Yuksel should do a survey as well?
what? do you think im care only about PM, EVERYONE should determine the performance of their actions and not have wish thinking.
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why dont you conduct a survey then?
Explained countless times in my posts.
19.org purpose is to promote the 19 sign. Yuksel should do a survey as well?
I see, so Yuksel should do a survey on the 19.org forums, hence Layth should be the one conducting the survey here. I'm glad it's all finally settled then.
what? do you think im care only about PM, EVERYONE should determine the performance of their actions and not have wish thinking.
However afaik, uptil now PM (and all associated stuff with it inclusive of it's forum) has borne the sole brunt of this zest born out of quality assurance. I hope to forthwith see more .orgs (and all associated stuff with it inclusive of it's forums) being similarly dealt with and the results posted for the benefit of all, with statistics, graphs and pretty pictures.
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Very nicely you have described the mentality of FM/PM.
As you seem to care much about grammar and spellings, I am sorry; in both I am weak.
Based on the former quote, I would add comprehension and logic to the latter list and would suggest posting constructively from now on, instead of uselessly generalising and attacking/accusing.
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savage_carrot,
you cannot prove that FM is clarifying issues about Islam. and this is okay with you? Meaning, if it is doing damage you dont care? That seem illogical to me.
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Peace, can anyone tell me why you all like to use the expression 'islamic reform'?
It seems that to reform means to change something with positive expectations. Beliefs of people are not something we can reform. Tariq Ramadan considers himself as a reformer too but yet relies on hadith. All his efforts as a so called reformer hasn't yielded anything. We've seen a rise in intolerance and islamophobia.
There is nothing to reform in islam. The quran is complete. people need to be reformed, but only themselves can do that, and only then God guides them. So, finally what is there to reform? -
Peace, can anyone tell me why you all like to use the expression 'islamic reform'?
It seems that to reform means to change something with positive expectations. Beliefs of people are not something we can reform. Tariq Ramadan considers himself as a reformer too but yet relies on hadith. All his efforts as a so called reformer hasn't yielded anything. We've seen a rise in intolerance and islamophobia.
There is nothing to reform in islam. The quran is complete. people need to be reformed, but only themselves can do that, and only then God guides them. So, finally what is there to reform?Tariq Ramadan is a scam.
As far as progressive Muslims, i am not sure what it is. If its a progressive movement to progress islam by returning Muslims to accept only Koran, then it can not do more than this. If its about interpretating the Koran in a progressive matter, it will only achieve what it can once people accept the Koran as the sole or pivotal authority in Islam. This is because you can not control the interpretation of the Koran. Persuading people to return to the Koran is a very broad based objective. This is because very Muslim on Eartrh accepts its authority and is aware of what it is. Even if he is not aware of what it actually says. Everyone will interpret it in different ways, not much different from here.
You can't control the Koran and thus won't be able to control its interpretation. There are no madhabs and Isnad methodologies and different variations to thwart the average person from interpreting the Koranic verses. Everyone has access to it. No need to get educated through fiqh and no need to be certified and you don't need to go to some college or even library.
But thats whats great about the Koran. Its nobody's property and for everybody.
As far as organizations, well they can contribute by awareness and providing material and forums for debate. But no human can control a movement as broad and as universal as the Koran following movement.
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savage_carrot,
you cannot prove that FM is clarifying issues about Islam. and this is okay with you? Meaning, if it is doing damage you dont care? That seem illogical to me.
Who is it doing damage to exactly? Can they not come to the forum, if it is so damaging? This forum helps me a lot, honestly. It is all subjective. If FM damages/hurts/bothers people, no one is forcing them to come here.
I really don't understand what the problem/question is?
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Who is it doing damage to exactly? Can they not come to the forum, if it is so damaging? This forum helps me a lot, honestly. It is all subjective. If FM damages/hurts/bothers people, no one is forcing them to come here.
I really don't understand what the problem/question is?
Maybe its politics and question about leaderships and personality clashes. But I think SHM may know things we don't.