Menstruating women praying and fasting
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Now we are left with , wa in kuntum junaboon fa thahroo,
A state known as junaba requires Tahhroo?
what is this state of junnaba?
and what procedure is required to become Tahar which would enable us to perform salat?
i will continue tomorrow
peace
siki
I think you ask some good questions here. But I dont think you will get your answers from the "ghusl" in 443. You are still maybe not considering and/or reflecting on the implications that 443 was most likely revealed before 56; and what that will mean for the evolving definitions and conditions surrounding this issue. But we can continue tomorrow if you like, Allah willing.
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
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Peace,
Oh My God, what a mess, you are all so fixed with physically stuff, have you forgot about the most important part of being a follower of the mighty power?
Tahara is not only to be clean at body but also in your mind, if you have filthy thoughts hmm how then can you reach your goals if your goals in general terms are not filthy!?
I guess a reminder for all to uphold the balance between your body and soul. Our body is only the host for our valuable soul.
Maria
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As Salaamu alaika SwedenMajidah,
Peace,
Oh My God, what a mess, you are all so fixed with physically stuff, have you forgot about the most important part of being a follower of the mighty power?
Tahara is not only to be clean at body but also in your mind, if you have filthy thoughts hmm how then can you reach your goals if your goals in general terms are not filthy!?
I guess a reminder for all to uphold the balance between your body and soul. Our body is only the host for our valuable soul.
Maria
I don't think that any of us discussing this issue would disagree with you that the spiritual and mental aspect of "tahara" are the most important. We are discussing the relevant issues around it's physical implications also. I dont think that you think yourself as a human is only mental and spiritual. Surely you can't ignore your physical aspect. Im sure you have to eat, sleep, go to the bathroom, have menses if you haven't pasted that age, etc. So we are not saying that the physical is more important than the spiritual or mental, but only discussing what Allah is telling us or not telling us from the ayaat of Al Quran.
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
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Salam,
Well, I did say that we should uphold a balance between our body and soul and that speaks for itself.
I don't want to change the subject or go off topic, but menstruating women who prays depends how you perform your salat.
Muslims who perform their salat in a ritual and physically way may think that women who have their menses are not clean and cannot pray.But muslims who consider their salat to be of spiritual way may think that menses are not a reason to feel unclean in your thoughts.
So it all depends how you feel, and how you understand it.
And the main reasons why menstruations are mention in Quran is to protect the women, because we know that there is another verse that says that the husband can approach his wife as often as he pleases but this is an exception from that statement. A woman can be harmed and more easy infected when she has her menses. But to state that she is unclean in her mind and cannot pray to God is a big assumption.
Maria
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As Salaamu Alaika huruf,
Thanks for your comments and I understand your question I think. What I mean by it being a mercy is that Allah knows how He created the woman and that it is best for them to not perform As Salaat during this time; not for Him since He is not affected if He released them from the "obligation" to have to perform As Salaat during "al maHeed". Surely many women could pray during this time if they choose to do so, I mean physically. But so could any married person do the same after intercourse if they choose to. Just because you want to perform As Salaat, Allah gives you conditions in which to approach this act of worship.
I don't think that it is left to the discretion of a woman to choose. To me Allah clearly indicates that it is a state necessitating "tahara", and because of this, approaching As Salaat would be incorrect. That being said, neither do I think that it is something that Allah would consider as "haram", and that is why it is not called as such and maybe given in the manner that it is in Al Quran. To pray during this time might not be accepted by Allah, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it also would constitute a "sin"; most probably just something ignored or frowned upon by Allah. Allah knows best of course. But Allah recommends against many things in Al Quran without specifically calling them "haram". This is a part of following the guidance of Allah instead of just staying away from what is prohibited clearly as haram. One can stay away from "haram", but still not follow all of the guidance that is given by Allah. I hope that makes sense.
So while I am saying that there is no salaat for women during menses, I also believe that if a woman still does it, she is just not following the best guidance; not necessarily commiting a sin that could lead to hellfire. To not accept the mercy given to you by Allah is a violation of accepting guidance, not necessarily a sin. Again, Allah knows best.
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
So what you mean is that the woman cannot choose to pray salaat or not to pray salaar. In other messages i found that you did not make your thought clear on that.
Still, I haven't seen any valid indication that the qur'an even remotely establishes any connection whatsoever between menses and salaat, be it for one reason or other. No connection. I would have to do a lot of violence to my reasoning and even then I would still be bluffed as to how someone may come to such conclusions. Not that I have great passion one way or the other, it is simply that the connection is established on assumptions for which I can't see any proof or reason. Add to that that I definitely find that if God didn't want women to do salaat a number of few days every month, He would have stated it without playing guesswhats, which if indulged can only lead to get out of the qur'an whatever whim we may happen to have.
There is also in one of your messages something that has shocked me and it is where you say something about God accepting or not the salaat when done while menstruating. It is not your fault, it is my sensibility, but I have never been able to hear that kind of expression "God will not accept this, God will not accept that, or God may or may no accept whatever" without feeling the utmost shock. How dare any human even speculate about what our Creator and knower may or may not accept? Has anybody signed any priviledged information pact with HIM, or got some private channel where God has no secrets for him or her or has anybody managed to make Dhul jalala walikram to his own size as if He was some cashier or other checking means of payment and not our maker and planner that knows us better than ourselves and has known us forever? What "accept" is this?
I have believed for many years this thing about menses precluding salaat. I just took people's word and explanations for it and although it has always intrigued me, it has not bothered me beyond measure. Recently, when I have seen it questioned I have looked at it attentively and I find that this widespread assumption springs in fact out of nothing, only from the stubborness that menses must be accompanied by some kind of folklore, and what better folklore than what we can pick from the judaic tradition, where it seems that menses are duly milked. And now that we talk about milking, had women's milk represented some hindrance for intercourse, who knows but that we might be saying that women cannot do salaat as long as they aren't purified, t-hh-r, of milk secretions. And I trust that by putting some milk in the matter I will not be opening a long thread on de difference between milk and blood, because then I would feel forever guilty of torture against my fellow forumers.
Salaam
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Salam,
Well, I did say that we should uphold a balance between our body and soul and that speaks for itself.
I don't want to change the subject or go off topic, but menstruating women who prays depends how you perform your salat.
Muslims who perform their salat in a ritual and physically way may think that women who have their menses are not clean and cannot pray.But muslims who consider their salat to be of spiritual way may think that menses are not a reason to feel unclean in your thoughts.
So it all depends how you feel, and how you understand it.
And the main reasons why menstruations are mention in Quran is to protect the women, because we know that there is another verse that says that the husband can approach his wife as often as he pleases but this is an exception from that statement. A woman can be harmed and more easy infected when she has her menses. But to state that she is unclean in her mind and cannot pray to God is a big assumption.
Maria
If you read all of my posts, you will know that I don't believe that women can't reach out to Allah and make "dua" (prayer) to Allah in their minds and spirit during their menses. But I don't consider these acts alone as As Salaat. I don't think that "al maHeed" constitute a woman being impure in here thoughts, just physically not "tahur" for approaching As Salaat. Allah makes it clear that certain PHYSICAL CONDITIONS warrant a reason to not appoach As Salaat. None of those conditions mean that anyone is impure in their thoughts, yet Allah still tells everyone, not just women, to not approach As Salaat until they have physically cleansed themselves in some way. This cleansing is physical for sure, although it most certainly will contain mental and spiritual connotations about it.
If you think As Salaat is only mental meditation or something of this sort limited to mental thoughts only and not a physical ritual designed to preserve the guidance, then you should just ignore everything I am saying in this thread as none of it will make any sense to you dear sister.
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
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As Salaamu Alaika huruf,
So what you mean is that the woman cannot choose to pray salaat or not to pray salaar. In other messages i found that you did not make your thought clear on that.
I am glad that I finally made myself clear to you on that, even if you do not agree with me; that is okay.
Still, I haven't seen any valid indication that the qur'an even remotely establishes any connection whatsoever between menses and salaat, be it for one reason or other. No connection. I would have to do a lot of violence to my reasoning and even then I would still be bluffed as to how someone may come to such conclusions. Not that I have great passion one way or the other, it is simply that the connection is established on assumptions for which I can't see any proof or reason. Add to that that I definitely find that if God didn't want women to do salaat a number of few days every month, He would have stated it without playing guesswhats, which if indulged can only lead to get out of the qur'an whatever whim we may happen to have.
The connection is any state that necessitates "tahara". If you can't see how I or anyone else is making that connection, then I don't think there is anything that we can do to help you to see it. Some can see it, but just don't agree with it. Some see it and agree with it. I guess some also don't even see it. But I don't think it does violence to the reason or intellect of anyone to at least understand that the connection is being made throught the concept and connection of what necessitates "tahara".
Allah gives us many instructions and guidance and Al Quran that is only understood through careful study. That is how He chose to do it for things and reasons that only He knows. I already gave my reasons in the previous posts as to why I think this instruction is given in the manner in which it is given. Whether you agree or not, this insite is garnered from Al Quran and Al Quran only, not outside sources or other books.
There is also in one of your messages something that has shocked me and it is where you say something about God accepting or not the salaat when done while menstruating. It is not your fault, it is my sensibility, but I have never been able to hear that kind of expression "God will not accept this, God will not accept that, or God may or may no accept whatever" without feeling the utmost shock. How dare any human even speculate about what our Creator and knower may or may not accept? Has anybody signed any priviledged information pact with HIM, or got some private channel where God has no secrets for him or her or has anybody managed to make Dhul jalala walikram to his own size as if He was some cashier or other checking means of payment and not our maker and planner that knows us better than ourselves and has known us forever? What "accept" is this?
Allah is the one that states in Al Quran why peoples As Salaat is not accepted and why many acts of worship or saying of the mouths are not accepted. To repeat those things or draw conclusions from them is not to act as if one had a direct conversation with Allah. But it is to make reference to the guidance given in Al Quran, which is legitimate; especially the way I have said those things if you read what I said carefully. Even with all that I said, I still said "and Allah knows best". Maybe you should reread ALL that I said without bias or preconceived notions based on other peoples actions and deeds before you come to your conclusions about what I said and what it means.
I have believed for many years this thing about menses precluding salaat. I just took people's word and explanations for it and although it has always intrigued me, it has not bothered me beyond measure. Recently, when I have seen it questioned I have looked at it attentively and I find that this widespread assumption springs in fact out of nothing, only from the stubborness that menses must be accompanied by some kind of folklore, and what better folklore than what we can pick from the judaic tradition, where it seems that menses are duly milked. And now that we talk about milking, had women's milk represented some hindrance for intercourse, who knows but that we might be saying that women cannot do salaat as long as they aren't purified, t-hh-r, of milk secretions. And I trust that by putting some milk in the matter I will not be opening a long thread on de difference between milk and blood, because then I would feel forever guilty of torture against my fellow forumers.
Salaam
If you are referring to your previous reasons for believing that As Salaat should not be performed by women during their menses, then I am not responsible for those errorneous reasons for precluding it. I am not and have not referred to any of those "supposed" reasons in any of my posts. I based my conclusions strictly on what I have found in Al Quran. Many people that come to this path of following the guidance from Al Quran alone without the "sunnah and hadeeth" of sunnis and shias, fall into the trap of trying to completely be the opposite of anything given in sunnism and shiaism because of their origin of the reason behind the information. I don't do that. I don't try to confirm or negate sunnism/shiaism concepts. I try to only find the guidance given in Al Quran. It doesn't matter to me if the same conclusions are reached that agree with sunnism/shiaism or if the guidance refutes them. My goal is to understand the guidance given by Allah above all else. If it agrees with a conclusion from those sects, even though they came to the same conclusion through errorneous methods, I dont really care. I am trying to follow and obey Allah and His message in Al Quran, not show or prove how backwards and wrong is sunnism/shiaism.
The comments about milk secretions have no place in this thread since they are not mentioned in any of the ayaat discussed or any ayaat relating the issue. We could bring in anything to the discussion if we don't actually use the content of the ayaat of Al Quran as the barometer for what is being discussed and studied.
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
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wa alaika as salaam siki brother,
Faghasiloo, so "wash". What to wash? Your whole body? No, because "ghusl" in Al Quran doesn't mean to take a whole bath! This ayat should have proved that to you because Allah is telling you EXACTLY what He wants you to wash before preparing for every Salaat. There is no "tahara" at that point because we are not required to take a "full bath" before every salaat. How are you missing that "faghasiloo" is describing what is "ghusl"?
Brother IQO salam
Before i proceed further, let my try and sort out your confusion here.
Ghusul of face is , proper washing of the face with running water, and so of the arms, but when messah is used, that means there is no need to carry out a proper washing, but wiping those parts clean (may be with wet hands) would be suficent.
When i tell you to ghusal your face , that would mean to wash your face
But when i tell you to take a Ghusal , without any parts being mentioned , that would mean , that you wash your complete body , just as been told in some ayah like being washed in the rain from head to toe.
siki
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As Salaamu Alaika again brother siki,
Brother IQO salam
Before i proceed further, let my try and sort out your confusion here.
Ghusul of face is , proper washing of the face with running water, and so of the arms, but when messah is used, that means there is no need to carry out a proper washing, but wiping those parts clean (may be with wet hands) would be suficent.
When i tell you to ghusal your face , that would mean to wash your face
But when i tell you to take a Ghusal , without any parts being mentioned , that would mean , that you wash your complete body , just as been told in some ayah like being washed in the rain from head to toe.
siki
That would be what YOU AND THOSE WHO BELIEVE like you would mean. But as you have fortunately pointed out, the ayat about being washed with rain from head to toe (811) clearly uses "tahara" to denote this "washing of the whole body"; not "ghusl". This concept of what is "ghusl" (wash your whole body) to you is not from Al Quran, but from sunnism/shiaism.
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
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salaams again brother,
To continue
I dont agree with your conclusion that if we find no water that we should then pray without doing anything. I think the principle laid down is that if we can't take a full bath, then to use clean earth to clean our face and arms; would also suffice if we have no water to make "ghusl". To go to the extreme and just say that since you have no water you don't have to wash or do anything before prayer is to assume a lot when you already have a principle being given in Al Quran for a situation where no water is availabe. Considering also that using clean earth to rub the face and arms with is more similar to the "ghusl" preparation, it would be more logical to use this method for "ghusl" also if there is no water available at all, IMHO.
So I definitely can not agree with your premise here that I have highlighted in red siki.
brother !Your assetion here is wrong, i will try and explain it to you,
The dry ablution is conditioned to 4 conditions only, because had your statement been true, The ayah would have said, that "IN case you don't find water then do the dry ablution" (procedure) But here God goes in lot of details and precisely mentions what 4 conditions, which at least require some kind of dry soil ritual purification, if one does not find water to carry out the prescribed procedure of cleansing before salat.
If we understand this, then we can indirectly conclude that In no water scenario but , if we are not through the mentioned 4 conditions, what to do. because the God does not prohibit salat in this situation , but prohibits in, junaba and intoxicated state only,( 4-43)
siki
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As Salaamu Alaika siki,
I simply disagree with your post below for the reasons that I have already mentioned. I don't find what you are saying as evidence to support your reason/logic. But alhamdulilaah..to each their own. From Allah we all come from, and to Him is the return.
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
brother !Your assetion here is wrong, i will try and explain it to you,
The dry ablution is conditioned to 4 conditions only, because had your statement been true, The ayah would have said, that "IN case you don't find water then do the dry ablution" (procedure) But here God goes in lot of details and precisely mentions what 4 conditions, which at least require some kind of dry soil ritual purification, if one does not find water to carry out the prescribed procedure of cleansing before salat.
If we understand this, then we can indirectly conclude that In no water scenario but , if we are not through the mentioned 4 conditions, what to do. because the God does not prohibit salat in this situation , but prohibits only in, junaba and intoxicated state only,( 4-43)
siki
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Brother IQO salam
Leaving janaba, (which require Taharoo before salat) pending for some time , now lets move to 4-43.
4-43 O you who believe! do not go near prayer when you are Intoxicated until you know (well) what you say, nor when you are under an obligation to perform a bath -- unless (you are) travelling on the road -- until you have washed yourselves; and if you are sick, or on a journey, or one of you come from the privy or you have touched the women, and you cannot find water, betake yourselves to pure earth, then wipe your faces and your hands; surely Allah is Pardoning, Forgiving
4-43 comes up with one more condition which makes salat prohibited till a certain condition is full filled. which is intoxication, till one is back in his senses to understand what he is saying/doing.
but , it repeats the janaba state prohibition with two changes,
change (1) wa la junaban -----hatta tagh tasilloo.
The word taharoo in 5-6 for junaba, is being replaced here with Thagtasilloo. That means that tahara in 5-6 , which was not being explained as to how ? is being explained and clarified here with the word Ghusal . And this Ghusal is not being restricted to any specific parts of the body , which would mean it to be the full body wash.
Change(2). wa la juna baan illa abri sabelin hatta taghtasillo.
The guy who is abri sabelin (traveller) is being exempted from this restriction , because it becomes cumbersome for the traveller to find water and a place to take full bath.
Rest of the ayah is word by word the same for 4 conditions which necessitate, at least some kind of cleansing (dry ablution) , if water is not available.
I sincerely hope that this would make the things clear to you.
siki
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As Salaamu Alaika siki,
Either you are ignoring or don't understand why I have said that 56 is an expounding on 443, and not the other way around. Why do you think that 443 is revealed AFTER 56? All indications are that it was revealed before.
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
Brother IQO salam
Leaving janaba, (which require Taharoo before salat) pending for some time , now lets move to 4-43.
4-43 O you who believe! do not go near prayer when you are Intoxicated until you know (well) what you say, nor when you are under an obligation to perform a bath -- unless (you are) travelling on the road -- until you have washed yourselves; and if you are sick, or on a journey, or one of you come from the privy or you have touched the women, and you cannot find water, betake yourselves to pure earth, then wipe your faces and your hands; surely Allah is Pardoning, Forgiving
4-43 comes up with one more condition which makes salat prohibited till a certain condition is full filled. which is intoxication, till one is back in his senses to understand what he is saying/doing.
but , it repeats the janaba state prohibition with two changes,
change (1) wa la junaban -----hatta tagh tasilloo.
The word taharoo in 5-6 for junaba, is being replaced here with Thagtasilloo. That means that tahara in 5-6 , which was not being explained as to how ? is being explained and clarified here with the word Ghusal . And this Ghusal is not being restricted to any specific parts of the body , which would mean it to be the full body wash.
Change(2). wa la juna baan illa abri sabelin hatta taghtasillo.
The guy who is abri sabelin (traveller) is being exempted from this restriction , because it becomes cumbersome for the traveller to find water and a place to take full bath.
Rest of the ayah is word by word the same for 4 conditions which necessitate, at least some kind of cleansing (dry ablution) , if water is not available.
I sincerely hope that this would make the things clear to you.
siki
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Brother IQO
salam. in your couple of previous posts, you have mentioned that i am under influence of Sunnis for such and such thinking (wadu etc). But brother ,
Sunnis understand the conditions for dry ablution, exactly the same, what you understand (wrongly) , where as i being a Sunni , have used my understanding from the Quran and broken free ?
Sunnis understanding regarding salat of menstruating women is exactly what you have, and i had , but i have broken free from that after deriving the new understanding from the Quran?
siki
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As Salaamu Alaika siki,
Either you are ignoring or don't understand why I have said that 56 is an expounding on 443, and not the other way around. Why do you think that 443 is revealed AFTER 56? All indications are that it was revealed before.
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
Brother salam,
i have already posted my reasons for such a thinking, could you please post your arguments/reasons for such a thinking?
Either way it does not matter which was revealed first or last , what matters is, what info we can deduce out of these to establish the correct procedures.
siki
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As Salaamu Alaika siki,
Okay, lets just agree to disagree. I don't agree with most of your assessments about these two ayat and you likewise about mine. I see 56 as further expounding and clarifying 443 which would have been revealed before 56. You must see it the other way around if you think 443 is further clarifying 56. Nevertheless, I think your idea of what is "ghusl", is clearly from sunni/shia traditions which are common use now, and not based from how Al Quran describes it. Of course you still use terms like "wadu", which are not Quranic to describe washing preparation before As Salaat. So I don't think we will agree with each other on anything else regarding this subject matter and the dialogue has become fruitless. See you on another topic, Allah willing.
My final understanding remains that "ghusl" is washing the face, arms, head and feet to the ankles, the normal preparation before As Salaat. "Tahara" is taking a full bath for the conditions indicating it's necessity. "Tayammun" is rubbing the face and arms with clean earth when one can find no water.
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
Brother salam,
i have already posted my reasons for such a thinking, could you please post your arguments/reasons for such a thinking?
Either way it does not matter which was revealed first or last , what matters is, what info we can deduce out of these to establish the correct procedures.
siki
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Finally,
These two ayas very precisely spell out the two conditions in which salat is prohibited, and also elaborate the 4 situations which do require some kind of ritual cleansing if water is not available for cleansing, and even a very well thought out exception to this rule (abri sablen ) has also been listed.
It does not prohibit the menstruating women from salat . period.
They can pray, and i don't think there is any confusion on that.
If you can find any further ayah from quran connecting women, or perionds, or certain situations, prohibiting/restricting salat, i would be more than willing to reconsider my thinking.
waslam
siki
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As Salaamu Alaika siki,
Okay, lets just agree to disagree. I don't agree with most of your assessments about these two ayat and you likewise about mine. I see 56 as further expounding and clarifying 443 which would have been revealed before 56. You must see it the other way around if you think 443 is further clarifying 56. Nevertheless, I think your idea of what is "ghusl", is clearly from sunni/shia traditions which are common use now, and not based from how Al Quran describes it. Of course you still use terms like "wadu", which are not Quranic to describe washing preparation before As Salaat. So I don't think we will agree with each other on anything else regarding this subject matter and the dialogue has become fruitless. See you on another topic, Allah willing.
My final understanding remains that "ghusl" is washing the face, arms, head and feet to the ankles, the normal preparation before As Salaat. "Tahara" is taking a full bath for the conditions indicating it's necessity. "Tayammun" is rubbing the face and arms with clean earth when one can find no water.
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
Brother ! i use the word wadu denoting the steps prescribed in quran before salat , for my own ease because the Quran does not give it any name, However if you are sensitive, i would not use it. From today i shall call them , with,
"The 4 steps prescribed in 5-6 for cleansing before every salat" ;D
How can you Ghusal your head and feet to the ankles? when Quran in 5-6 clearly states to "wamassahoo"?
How can you then assign a name to it as Ghusal? when half of the steps are termed as wamassahoo?
Going by your logic , it stands an equal chance to be called Massah?
siki
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Siki brother...as I said already, peace to you...to you your way and to me mine. I am not going to continue to argue with you about these issues when you clearly don't have enough command or understanding of the arabic used in these ayaat to discuss the concepts of "ghusl" and "tahara"; let alone whether or not performing As salaat is recommended or not for women. So after this post, go ahead, have the last word. As I will not respond to any other posts from you on this one issue alone. Sorry you couldn't convince me of your thinking though. My apologies.
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
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