What did Abraham do first? Break an idle or break an idol?
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They are not constant, and couldn't possibly be the God, as people of that day claimed. I think you missed the point of Abraham's story. He used logic to draw his conclusion.
well DA,
the meanings i am using are based on lanes lexicon.
But;
you could be right- but not as i see things.your reasoning
Abraham after years of living his life gets a child- suddenly one night looks at a star and says that might be my RABB, Then "no" its the sun- that might be my Rabb, then again "no" its the Moon ;For God sakes man he is a prophet - beyond me your type of reasoning Br. Sorry.My reasoning
I think- you may or may not agree though.He gets a son who he tried saving by deception from a murder and then by being averice but neither gave way and may be other things in his life as well no doubt from which he realised people can't be your Rabb and neither the action of deception and avariciousness- but only actions or relationships based on Gods attributes are the Rabb, which provide to humanity.
You should be able to see this in practice all round the world- if you can't well........
God Bless All.
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Salaam mz
The words for these meanings are not shams and qamar, but tasham-mus and taqam-mur. The respective adjectives are mutasham-mis and mutaqam-mir. Both are derived from shams and qamar Sun and moon
Hi Samia,
Sorry dear i just wrote them like that to save time- but they aren't Sun and Moon anyway according when i did my research, but of course if you wish to interpret them like that that is your choice.
Was it dul qarnain who saw the sun setting into a muddy lake- May be that is some people's belief certainly not the majority here.
Its like saying the stick changed to snake- not at all.
God Bless.
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Hi Samia,
Sorry dear i just wrote them like that to save time- but they aren't Sun and Moon anyway according when i did my research, but of course if you wish to interpret them like that that is your choice.
Was it dul qarnain who saw the sun setting into a muddy lake- May be that is some people's belief certainly not the majority here.
Its like saying the stick changed to snake- not at all.
God Bless.
It makes perfect sense actually.
http//noel.feld.cvut.cz/~horcik/iceland/Iceimg/SUNSETS1.JPG
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It makes perfect sense actually.
http//noel.feld.cvut.cz/~horcik/iceland/Iceimg/SUNSETS1.JPG
018.086
YUSUFALI Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it set in a spring of murky water Near it he found a People We said "O Zul-qarnain! (thou hast authority,) either to punish them, or to treat them with kindness."
PICKTHAL Till, when he reached the setting-place of the sun, he found it setting in a muddy spring, and found a people thereabout. We said O Dhu'l-Qarneyn! Either punish or show them kindness.
SHAKIR Until when he reached the place where the sun set, he found it going down into a black sea, and found by it a people. We said O Zulqarnain! either give them a chastisement or do them a benefit.O man you are great you have found what a lot of us where confused about, Vow!
Sorry Br. just joking
God Bless All.
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There is absolutely nothing wrong with speaking from someone else's perspective.
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Salaams Br,
ask any person with some knowledge, which of these three statements if any is correct.
setting in a spring of murky water
setting in a muddy spring
going down into a black sea
Thanks but i used have your brain in my head once upon a time- Thanks to people who helped me set it aright.
God Bless.
secondly wasn't there a different word for the ocean in your quran.
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Salaams Br,
ask any person with some knowledge, which of these three statements if any is correct.
setting in a spring of murky water
setting in a muddy spring
going down into a black sea
Thanks but i used have your brain in my head once upon a time- Thanks to people who helped me set it aright.
God Bless.
secondly wasn't there a different word for the ocean in your quran.
ask any person with some knowledge, which of these three statements if any is correct.
setting in a spring of murky water
setting in a muddy spring
going down into a black sea
Any "knowledgeable person" whereby "knowledgable" = "agreeing with my views", ain't that right? All of those statements are correct from the given perspective.
Thanks but i used have your brain in my head once upon a time- Thanks to people who helped me set it aright.
Maybe you should put it back in
secondly wasn't there a different word for the ocean in your quran.
On second thoughts, keep that new brain in there - if you can deduce there is an ocean in that photo, and nothing else (the radius is <17km needed for a horizon view similar to that), then clearly your brain has something mine doesn't.
In any case, explain the following verses, such as 590 if you please.
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589
Not call you to account Allah of futility in your faith/beliefs but will call you to account for what is deliberate in you faiths/beliefs????.
590
O you who believe the covering up and making things easier causes Distress and produces harm an abomination (of) handiwork (of) Satan so avoid it so that you may attain success.http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=14164.msg124761#msg124761
1886-92
Until when he reached the hiding place/the cover (of) the sun/Hostile (people)
He found it occupied in plain view scorn/tribal pride/stubborn disdain(passion of protection) and found with it a people We said ?O Dhulqarnain either you punish(them) or you treat them with kindness. He said as for him who does wrong shall we punish him then he will be brought back unto his lord who Will punish him (with) a torment terrible.But as for him who believes and works righteous he shall have reward the best and we shall speak unto him from our words mild.then he followed (another)way.until when he reached the rising place of the sun/place of hostilities he found it rising on a people not provided for whom against it (sun/hostilities) any shelter as it was and We knew whatever information with him.handshake
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Hi Samia,
Sorry dear i just wrote them like that to save time- but they aren't Sun and Moon anyway according when i did my research, but of course if you wish to interpret them like that that is your choice.
Was it dul qarnain who saw the sun setting into a muddy lake- May be that is some people's belief certainly not the majority here.
Its like saying the stick changed to snake- not at all.
God Bless.
Can you please cut and paste or copy the relevant part of Lane's? I do not have this lexicon. No classical dictionary says more than what I copied.
As for the verse of Dhul Qarnain, I think this is a poor literal translation that did not take into consideration the differences between Arabic and English expressions. If I say "alghuruub fi nahrin-neel" (literally sunset in the River Nile), it means the reflection of sunset in the river Nile, not the sun is setting inside the river. Interpreters should have been more careful. Even the tafaseer do not say that.
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Can you please cut and paste or copy the relevant part of Lane's? I do not have this lexicon. No classical dictionary says more than what I copied.
As for the verse of Dhul Qarnain, I think this is a poor literal translation that did not take into consideration the differences between Arabic and English expressions. If I say "alghuruub fi nahrin-neel" (literally sunset in the River Nile), it means the reflection of sunset in the river Nile, not the sun is setting inside the river. Interpreters should have been more careful. Even the tafaseer do not say that.
That's valid in English as well ???
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Really? I did not know. So, why is it understood by many (non arabic speakers) as if it is not the way to say it?
The first time I saw it being mocked in this way was in the Muhammad cartoons. I was a bit confused and asked my English neighbours what they would understand if I said the sun sets in the lake. They said it was wrong to say that and I should have either said something like (by the lake) or (reflects on the lake).
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I agree with OPF. It never crossed my mind that there was anything wrong until I encountered a few people on the forum here who had an issue with it. I don't see any problems at all even now, infact the first thing you do is picture a sunset across a body of water. I really don't get what the confusion is...
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Sis Samia,
I had an American friend who returned from a picnic at the beach, she was very excited and said... I saw the sunset at the beach...it was so beautiful as it was setting in the water"...or somesuch. Don't really know why it's an issue.
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Really? I did not know. So, why is it understood by many (non arabic speakers) as if it is not the way to say it?
The first time I saw it being mocked in this way was in the Muhammad cartoons. I was a bit confused and asked my English neighbours what they would understand if I said the sun sets in the lake. They said it was wrong to say that and I should have either said something like (by the lake) or (reflects on the lake).
There is a difference. Say it as you did "sunset in the River Nile" - perfect sense. Say it as "sun sets in the river Nile" and there is an issue - the only difference is a space and an "s" which has to be there whether or not it makes sense.
Either way, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that rendering. It's only used by the same people who make fun of muslims using as many dubious reasons as they can find, in any case.
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Hi Samia,
Can you please cut and paste or copy the relevant part of Lane's? I do not have this lexicon. No classical dictionary says more than what I copied.
From lanes;
Qamara = to deceive/beguile/circumvent/desire to do evil without someone knowing
whence it proceeded.(p 2562)
Shamasa = enmity/Niggardly/tenacious/avaricious.http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume4/00000321.pdf
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume4/00000320.pdf
I hope it helps.
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Hi Samia,
From lanes;
Qamara = to deceive/beguile/circumvent/desire to do evil without someone knowing
whence it proceeded.(p 2562)
Shamasa = enmity/Niggardly/tenacious/avaricious.http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume4/00000321.pdf
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume4/00000320.pdf
I hope it helps.
Thanks mz.
The two links are for "shams". The meaning you allude to is for "shamasa" to show enmity, so it is also a verb. Under the root "shams" there is nothing but sun, and a pendant. They are all derived from characteristics of the sun. This does not allow to do a retro analogy to anything else back to the root meaning. Example He is a midday sun (meaning he is unscapably cruel). We cannot allude that ( sun means unscapable cruelty). In other words, you can derive meanings from the root, but you cannot give the root a new meaning from a derivation. Shams and qamar are roots (and nouns).
Same with "qaamara" to gamble. It could be derived from the fact that the moon does not have one shape, or that some animals are decived by the light of the moon thinking it is day time so they get easily hunted; yet we cannot say "qamar" means gambling or deceit.
I hope this helps.
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Thanks mz.
The two links are for "shams". The meaning you allude to is for "shamasa" to show enmity, so it is also a verb. Under the root "shams" there is nothing but sun, and a pendant. They are all derived from characteristics of the sun. This does not allow to do a retro analogy to anything else back to the root meaning. Example He is a midday sun (meaning he is unscapably cruel). We cannot allude that ( sun means unscapable cruelty). In other words, you can derive meanings from the root, but you cannot give the root a new meaning from a derivation. Shams and qamar are roots (and nouns).
Same with "qaamara" to gamble. It could be derived from the fact that the moon does not have one shape, or that some animals are decived by the light of the moon thinking it is day time so they get easily hunted; yet we cannot say "qamar" means gambling or deceit.
I hope this helps.
Well Samia,
the words that occur in the quran are written as Al-shamsa, or Al-shamsu, Al-Qamara so they aren't far off from your depiction of verbs - and personally i do think that is what they were.
I think we are being told over and over , not to be avaricious and deceiving but instead the words have become the sun and the moon everywhere.
anyways that is how i understand it at the moment.
God Bless Samia.
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Salaam mz
Please don't understand that I am putting any restrictions on the way of your understanding. I myself do not restrict myself to the familiar/known understandings if I find something available and much better; but there are basic linguistic rules that should be respected. Languages evolve, but do not change their skin. The root system in Arabic is there as a source for new meanings/words to be derived. The root is the language per se, and patterns are how we make verbs and nouns. One of the universal rules of language is that "al the" is strictly prefixed to nouns only.
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Salaams Samia,
AVARICE
Noun FORMAL
an extremely strong desire to obtain or keep wealth; greed;
her business empire brought her wealth beyond dreams of the avarice (= an extremely large amount of money).Sorry i am not very good with english but can we use "the" with nouns- in english?