Verses which indicate male female interaction a believer should have....
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Salaam.
I think it is rude to ask Huruf to go and read the Quran.It is a tecnic to put the other one down.Anybody that read this thread,know that Huruf read.
I agree in with Huruf,it does not matter if all the prophets was men.because today,men are not prophets.
And as Huruf say,it is not stated in the Quran that no women have been prophets or messengers.
Today in the world criminal statistics,violent statistisc,men stands for more than 99% of all killings,rapes,pedofilia,anything you can think of,men do it.So it can not be that men were picked to be prophets,because of their noble personality,or because they are better than the women.Or that they are better in religion than women. -
Salaam.
I think it is rude to ask Huruf to go and read the Quran.It is a tecnic to put the other one down.Anybody that read this thread,know that Huruf read.
I agree in with Huruf,it does not matter if all the prophets was men.because today,men are not prophets.
And as Huruf say,it is not stated in the Quran that no women have been prophets or messengers.
Today in the world criminal statistics,violent statistisc,men stands for more than 99% of all killings,rapes,pedofilia,anything you can think of,men do it.So it can not be that men were picked to be prophets,because of their noble personality,or because they are better than the women.Or that they are better in religion than women.I am inclined agree with huruf and marleya upto the point that we can't know for certain whether there were any women who were prophets/messengers because I think that we read from the Book that there are some who we have been made aware of through its reading and some of which have not been informed of. But what I must disagree with is applying statistics/probabilities berating men's character and relating them to prophethood/messengership. We all agree that the prophets and messengers were pure and submitters to His will and to categorize them with the likes of compulsive rapists and killers is just plain wrong.
Peace
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2109, 1643, 217 - case closed.
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I don't think Marleya intended any disrespect, but may be she is as bad at typing as myself and things do not always come out as clear as intended.
Thanks OPF,
I don't get what you are pointing out with 2.109. Can you clarify?
As to 16.43 and 21.7, I don't know if the case is as closed as you say. And I will repeat, just in case somebody starts adding 2+2 and getting five, that I don't give a damn that Profets were one sex or the other. No matter the messenger, the message is what it is and the messenger is a person, not a sex. I make this clear so that afterwards I don't get more advice than I deserve. That settled, and for the sake of complete truthfulness, and not because I get any kick out of this, I will say what I find while in both these ayas the word rijaal is used, we know, at least I know, that rijal may include males and females. There is a long dicussion about this in another thread, and I would even have gone along with the rijaal=only-men meaning if I hadn't seen before coming into this forum the word used to mean females as well as males, particularly women or men of outstanding moral or spiritual achievement (rijaalul-lah, including both, and even rajul speaking of a particular woman). Also in 21.7 it is further elucidated that Profets were not given bodies that did not ingest food or exempt from death, emphasazing that they were human.
Concerning Mariam, I have read several times in different writings reasons why the writers or those quoted by the writers consider her a Profet. I can't remember much, because really, even in an spiritual sense, I am not interested in the classification of humans ressources, and Mariam, Profet or not Profet, is what she is, just like everybody else and like every Profet is what she or he is. What is sure, though, is that Mariam came with a clear sign.
The sex regarding Profets really is no problem, what I find cumbersome is the enormous weight it has in some heads.
Salaam
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I don't know why 2109 is there, seems to be a mixed up reference. Maybe 2109 ;D
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The problem with women is that they dont realize they are more feminism fanatics than men are macho fanatics. Yes huruf, you did say that solomon was portrayed as unwise. It's written there. It's also simply disgusting that we got people here saying that 99 percent of non prophet men are rapists, etc what has all this got to do with quran? Let me ask you, who created man? Who created our differences? Who imposed a dress code for women in quran and not specifically for men? Why? Are you contesting God's quran? Some men are macho and oppress women. That's a shame. But this doesnt give you the right to imply things that are not mentioned in quran. Remember, there are caring God aloners who want to protect women. It's edip who came up with the article Beating women or beating round the bus. Still no one has pointed out the verse where Mary says I am a messenger. Quran is not about conjecture.
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I am not sure what a discussion of Mary and QOS has to do with how men and women are supposed to interact with each other. However, it is clear that the QOS is treated as a ruler, and GOD did not state that women cannot rule when HE/IT clearly had the opportunity to do so. God does not run out of words. Solomon moving her kingdom to his does not = God saying that women are bad rulers. I just do not get where you see that Tarkih.
Secondly, Mary is an extremely important woman in Islam. She might not be a messenger per se, but God chose her above all other women to bear Isa. Her pregnancy with Isa was a test for her and a message for all people, so in a way, she was a vessel for a message from God.
Third, the idea that God did not mention any female prophets in the Quran does not 1) mean that there were NO female prophets/messengers and 2) does not mean that women are not fit to "rule." I am sure it was hard enough to convince anyone in ancient times to listen to the concept of monotheism. If women had been messengers, people may not have listened at all, because that was their perspective. Do you think that in societies where female babies are thrown away, it would be the best idea to choose a woman for a messenger? Clearly not...unless God intended to prove something and a woman was the only way to do so (ex. Mary giving birth to Isa). Now, there might have been communities with female messengers, but those were probably more progressive ones...as opposed to the backward people portrayed in many stories in the Quran. -
I'm NOT sayin that women should not be rulers. What i'm saying is that the q o s story isn't the perfect justification for women being rulers. It's huruf who brought up the q o s issue in this post. Women may rule democratically just like men. Point. Why systematically bring sheba in it?
As for mary being a messenger, i re ask the verse sayin so, please. Remember that jackaria's and abraham's wives were sterile and they gave birth. Does that make them messengers?
If there were female prophets, we have no proof of that. Not even in the old testament. Conjecture is no substitute for truth. Women are equal to men, yes, but do we have to invent stories to justify this fact? Just take God's word. -
Interaction between men and women in a society is obvious, and nowhere does the Quran prohibit the interaction of both genders. What It prohibits is immodesty. It gives us certain guidelines to follow during the interaction between the genders. The believers always remember the commands of Allah.
The Quran says
3135 Such men and women quickly correct any wrong or indecency that has occurred from them, by remembering the Commands of Allah, and thus, protect themselves from trailing behind in humanity. And who can absolve such imperfections but Allah? And they know well enough to refrain from persisting in whatever (wrong or indecency) had occurred from them.
The verse is quite clear, and explains to who these men and women are. The Quran says that they are the candidates of paradise (3134)
The Quran goes further and elaborates that these men and women effectively guard their chastity.
415 Protection of honor and chastity for men and women, both, is the cornerstone of a virtuous society (1732, 424). If any woman or a group of women spread sexual immorality or lewdness in the society, it is required that the appropriate court takes four honorable and reliable witnesses. If their testimony corroborates with other evidence (1226), confine them to their houses, since immorality is as contagious as good conduct. This confinement would be for an indefinite period, unless such women seek the Way of Allah, such as repentance and amendment, or the singles among them get honorably married.
Now, for those trangressing these boundaries, the appropriate action is also spelled out in clear terms in the Quran. The Quran leaves nothing to doubt. Thus, we do not need to conjure up all kinds of obscure laws inconsistent with the clear Quranic guidelines.
416 If a couple spreads such immorality or lewdness in the society, both of them shall be punished by the appropriate court of law. If they repent and amend, leave them alone. Allah is the Acceptor of repentance, Merciful.
417 Allah graciously accepts the repentance of those who do evil in ignorance, and then return quickly to the right conduct. Allah turns to them in Mercy. He is the Knower, the Wise.
418 The forgiveness is not for those who commit transgressions until death comes to one of them and he says, Behold, I repent now. (They have no time to make mends). Nor is the forgiveness for those who die as deniers of the Truth. We have prepared an awful suffering for them.
The question then needs to be examined. How should the sexes conduct themselves in everyday life? Again the Quran gives the appropriate guidelines. The verses of the Quran is relevant for all times and all situations. Allah knew that we will be living in different societies and that the majority of muslims will be living outside the traditional arab societies. Thus Allah set these guidelines to make life easy for us and not difficult as the exponents of hadith have been doing. If we blindly follow these hadithist fatwas, we will find that existing in society will be extremely difficult. And the reason for these difficulties is, because we made the Quran "MAHJOOR, (left alone as a disabled slave of tradition!)"
The Quran does not demand that the genders be rigidly seperated and that they may not mingle in general society. Allah has given humanity the ability of free will and choice. At the same time Allah also provides for us guidelines so that we can grow our humanity. After all we are not animals, although some of humanity do act animalistic at times. Therefore, we are advised by the Quran, live amicably and respect each other. In the last part of verse 425 the advice is for us humans not to act like animals.
425....Men and women must be patient and exercise self-control while waiting to get married. Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
To those that want to spread mischief in society by indulging in indecency, the Quran describes as
967 The hypocrites, both men and women, are all of a kind. They enjoin the doing of what is wrong and forbid the doing of what is right, and withhold their hands from doing good. They are oblivious of Allah, and so He is oblivious of them. (Whoever forgets Allah, forgets himself and his honored stature of being a human 5919). Verily, the hypocrites drift away from humanity.
But those women and men that honour the laws of Allah as expounded in the Quran, do not indulge in indencies.
971 And the believers, both men and women, are colleagues one of another. They enjoin the doing of Right and forbid the doing of Wrong (The distinction between right and wrong will never be arbitrary. The Quran is the eternal Criterion of what is right and what is wrong 2185). Together, they help establish the Divine System, and set up the Just Economic Order of Zakat
So, in the event that one has erred the remedy is also prescribed
9112 Triumphant are those who - Return to the Right Path and take corrective action as soon as they feel that they have erred. - Obey the Commands of Allah. - Praise Allah in word and action by serving His creation. - Pick up lessons from travel and from history. - Are always humble before the Divine System. - Adore Allah alone. - Promote the Quranic Values, and resist the non-Quranic customs. - Guard against trespassing the Limits ordained by Allah.
These are the men and women who deserve a pleasant life in both worlds (3335, 665). Give them the glad tiding (O Messenger). Those that want to live a decent life without lewdness and without the irrational restrictions that the manmade books expound on the masses will certainly be able to do so because if we want to be guided, Allah will do so
1025 Allah calls to the Lasting Abode of Peace, and leads men and women to the Straight Path. This Guidance can only be achieved according to His Laws (48
.On the contrary, those that refuse to submit to the divine Laws will conjure up all kinds of contradictory laws. To them the Quran says
2426 Evil women keep company with evil men, and evil men keep company with evil women...
In Surah Al-Ahzab when Allah addresses the wives of the prophet on how to conduct themselves, this is in essence a guideline to humanity in general for that is also a reason why it is related in the Quran.
3331 And whoever of you is devout in the service of Allah and His Messenger, and helps augment the society, We shall give her reward twice-over, for, We have readied for her a most excellent sustenance.
3335 Verily, for Muslim men and Muslim women. - Believing men and believing women. - Committed men and committed women (committed to Allahs Cause). - Truthful men and truthful women. - Steadfast men and steadfast women. - Humble men and humble women. - Charitable men and charitable women. - Abstaining men and abstaining women (abstaining from all vices). - Chaste men and chaste women. - Men who remember Allah much and women who remember (Him much). (For them) Allah has readied the protection of forgiveness and an Immense Reward. (3194, 4124).
Now comes the explicit warning to be wary of practicing laws other then the laws expounded by Allah and the Prophet through the Quran
3336 It is not fitting for a believing man or a believing woman, when a matter has been decided by Allah and His Messenger, to claim freedom of choice concerning themselves. And whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he has indeed, gone astray in error manifest.
The Guideline on how to dress and conduct ourselves modestly without any of the extremes is given in clear terms
3359 O Prophet! Tell your wives, your daughters, and women of the believers that they should draw loose fitting garments over their person (when in public). This is easy and proper, so that they may be recognized and not bothered. Allah is Absolver of imperfections, Merciful. (2431)
The best way is to follow the general rules of the Quran and ignore manwritten books which ultimately only complicates the way of life which Allah promises to make easy for us.(1669)
5718 Behold, the men and women who stand true to their proclamations of belief and lend a goodly loan to Allah, they will be repaid manifold. And theirs will be a generous reward.
These men and women are of the Muslalleen. And who are the Musalleen?
7022-35 ... - Those men and women who preserve their chastity.
The believers will not subject themselves to hide their faces, to subjugate their daughters into covering their hair. The believers will also not refuse to shake the hands of the opposite sex if offered in their work places and businesses. They will not forcibly segregate men and women socially. The believers understand when Allah commands them in the Quran against lewdness even in secret
6151 ----Do not go near immodesty or lewdness whether openly or in secret.
It is easy for the believers to be morally upright by just adhering to the simple but wise Quranic commands
2430 Tell the believing men to lower their gaze, and guard their modesty. This helps them grow in character. Verily, Allah is Aware of what they do.2431 And tell the believing women to lower their gaze, and guard their modesty.
Now how do we know what modesty means? Do we need to run to books written centuries after the revelation of Al_Furqaan? No, definitely not as the Quran gives us that definition as well if we just care to read Allah's Book
424 ... However, seek them in honest wedlock by giving them a generous marital gift as Muhsineen ...(let marriage be a fortress of chastity). You shall not waste your energies on lust (and go not near adultery 1732)...
'Muhsineen' = Those who have guarded their chastity = Modest men and women = Chaste people = Those who honor their marital bond.
On the otherhand what is immodesty?
'Musaafihin' = Those who spill = Those who waste their energies on lust.
Thus the Muhsineen are aware of the Quranic boundaries and always on their guard because they know
587 Do you not realize that Allah knows all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. There is no secret meeting of three but He is their fourth, nor of five but He is their sixth, nor of less than that or more but He is with them wherever they may be. And ultimately, on the Day of Resurrection, He will inform them of what they truly accomplished. Verily, Allah is Knower of all things.
The Muhsineen do not follow their own desires but abide by the divine laws at all times. Thus they need not be to be seperated into pens like animals and if let loose that they will go haywire and copulate.
2543 Have you seen him who has taken as god his own desire? Can you be an advocate responsible for him?
May Allah guide us in our quest to honour the Book of Allah as it should be done and to help erradicate the manmade laws and injunctions which are designed to treat the people as unthinking rualistic masses.
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in fact Maryam is mentioned in the same grouping as some of the mos prominent and I have not studied it myself, but some consider that according to the reading of the Qur'an she is indeed a profet.{haruf}
{Refer 12100}
{Refer 1643}
And I hope there is no dispute that Sydena Maryam Siddiqa was not amongst
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The problem with women is that they dont realize they are more feminism fanatics than men are macho fanatics. Yes huruf, you did say that solomon was portrayed as unwise. It's written there. It's also simply disgusting that we got people here saying that 99 percent of non prophet men are rapists, etc what has all this got to do with quran? Let me ask you, who created man? Who created our differences? Who imposed a dress code for women in quran and not specifically for men? Why? Are you contesting God's quran? Some men are macho and oppress women. That's a shame. But this doesnt give you the right to imply things that are not mentioned in quran. Remember, there are caring God aloners who want to protect women. It's edip who came up with the article Beating women or beating round the bus. Still no one has pointed out the verse where Mary says I am a messenger. Quran is not about conjecture.
here is what I said about Suleyman
"No, I don't think the Qu'ran does gives her name, but as far as is known, was Bilqis.
And YES the Qur'an portrays her as a wise and powerful ruler who commanded the respect of her advisors. Suleymand in that part is portraid as very knowledgeable in spiritual things, but not so much as wise ruler. "SULEYMAN IN THAT PART IS PROTRAID AS VERY KNOWLEDGEABLE IN SPIRITUAL THINGS BUT NO SO MUCH AS A WISE RULER.
Ideed in that passage it is Suleyman gifts as a spiritual leader that are stolled and not his wisdom as a ruler. His spiritual degree is what makes it possible for him to convince a wise ruler of the true faith and bring her to submit to the true living God.
Am I so wrong in that? Is it such a preposterous thing to come up with that? Please read my whole post to see if I didn't mean precisely that. As to the impropriety of saying that the Queen of Sabians was a wise ruler and that it is wrong that I say so, and that I shouldn't use it as an argument that the Qur'an doesn't forbid the rule of women, I don't see why. It is quite to the point (not in this thread I agree and all my excuses to AceOfHearts who doesn't deserve this highjacking of it). That Tarikh doesn't think it is important to show that women can rule because he knows that already and has no problem with it, the same as I don't have a problem with the sex of prophets, the fact is that other people do dispute that women can rule, so pointing to the fact that the Qur'an praises a woman ruler is not beside the point.
As to being characterised as fanatics and other rumblings, very original, duly impressed.
Now, I promise not to touch anything that does not pertain to this thread, and please, excuse my own rumblings.
Salaam
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????? ??????????? ??? ???????? ?????? ???????? ???????? ??????????
{Refer 12100}
????? ??????????? ??? ???????? ?????? ???????? ???????? ?????????? ???????????? ?????? ????????? ??? ??????? ??? ???????????
{Refer 1643}And I hope there is no dispute that Sydena Maryam Siddiqa was not amongst ????????
Those ayas have already been pointed out by OPF and I you can look at my answer. As to the aya where <marim is mentined with other profets I do not remember which one it is, however I will post it if I come again accross it.
As to there being no dispute, I think that interested people will debate as much as they want or need about anything always, just as you do. And this particular statement of yours is not me who disputes it, though I may agree or disagree, it is many people who have done for many centuries. There is nothing I can do to make it undisputed.
Salaam
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To the moderators
I am sorry to have been such a contributor at highjacking this thread, which should have left undisturbed for its purpose.
Woult it be feasible to take off all the messages that do not fit in it and put them in another appropriate thread?
Again, sorry for the mischief.
Salaam
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2109, 1643, 217 - case closed.
I think the word "rijaalan" in verses 1643 and 217 is in opposition to non-humans" as clear from verse 218 "and we did not make them bodies that ate no food or made them immortal".
Be careful with this word. It could be men, of course; but not "males". -
To the moderators
I am sorry to have been such a contributor at highjacking this thread, which should have left undisturbed for its purpose.
Woult it be feasible to take off all the messages that do not fit in it and put them in another appropriate thread?
Again, sorry for the mischief.
Salaam
No harm done. It's normal a thread would branch a bit from the original message. If you want to start a new thread it is up to you.
I hope the discussion returns back to the original message.
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2.235 I think this aya has already been mentioned, but I don't find it in the thread, so put it anyway.
3.61 ...
But do not associate with your wives while you are in retreat in the mosques...and ?YES! This one
2.282 ...
If the party liable is mentally deficient or weak or unable himself to dictate, let his guardian dictate faithfully and get two witnesses out of your own men, and if there are not two men, then a man and two women...I will continue keeping my eyes open for more.
Salasm
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I have to make a correction in my previous message which will be as follows
2.235 I think this aya has already been mentioned, but I don't find it in the thread, so put it anyway.
3.61
2.187 ... But do not associate with your wives while you are in retreat in the mosques...
and ?YES! This one
2.282 ... If the party liable is mentally deficient or weak or unable himself to dictate, let his guardian dictate faithfully and get two witnesses out of your own men, and if there are not two men, then a man and two women...I will continue keeping my eyes open for more.
Salasm