Verses which indicate male female interaction a believer should have....
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2.187 ... But do not associate with your wives while you are in retreat in the mosques...
It is understood that no one "associates" with his wife in the mosque. "Association" is allowed during fixed timings in the privacy of bed room. So the perception is that while one is in "aitkaaf" in the mosque there is no restriction in going home to know about the welfare/attend to the problems of wife/family but the restriction is on extreme "association"???
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It is understood that no one "associates" with his wife in the mosque. "Association" is allowed during fixed timings in the privacy of bed room. So the perception is that while one is in "aitkaaf" in the mosque there is no restriction in going home to know about the welfare/attend to the problems of wife/family but the restriction is on extreme "association"???
I gather that you are assuming that the wife is not also in retreat at the masjid. However, on reading that part of the aya, that is the first possibility that occurred to me. Any particular reason not to understand it so?
I would like to red some other opinions, see what we can learn.
Salaam
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Peace. Well the concept of male female interaction has to be reconsidered. Most women, even 'muslim' ones nowadays wear indecent/skin tight/body form revealing clothes that expose also the belly, hips, chest(when they bend down). Looking at them is inevitable. They are everywhere in society. They dont realize that they are practically nude even though they are dressed. Some 'muslim' women even wear skin tight clothes whilst wearing the veil. Does this mean that we should just avoid going out in society?
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I am afraid that much of what is going on in society nowadays is beyond our influence, however that may distress us. This is where we are and it is our test to live the life we have and not some other life. Traditional European dress either for men or women may not be the most comfortable invention on earth. And evolution of women's fashion has brought some good in the sense that women now can wear long loose tunics or jumpers and loose trousers, which is about the most comfortable thing to wear and which would have ben unthinkable 40 years ago, along with comfortable shoes, another unthinkable thing at that time. On the other hand there is the shameless and earlier and earlier exploitation of sexual "attractiveness" as a must for young girls. It really is a problem and it is very difficult to do anything against it. Some people blast the parents, but parents today are simply overpowered by the environment. The media are everywhere all the time; school is a very competitive place where the natural insecurity and anxiety of adolescents is exploited, the same as their curiosity, which is also natural, and their need to succeed, which is the top value in today's culture and therefore unavoidable for them. Depending on the child's temperament, you can have some influence or you just spend yourself for nothing (for the moment).
I think this time is about one of the hardest time in history to be a parent. Still, for whatever it is worth, if I were to say something it is that no matter what, we have to trust deeply our children and we have to trust ourselves as to what we do for them and as to what we do out of our own conviction. Children grow up, and even after a lot of trouble they come to think that in a world that is fickle and full of traps, the mother or the father are still a firm mooring, and since they believe in him or her, then it must be that there is good in him or her and they may survive their youth and become quite worthy adults. It is not he end of the world, although it may be quite a nightmare.
As to nudity and all that, I am afraid, that is what there is and one has to just do as one should whatever is around. We are not God and cannot change anything out of will. We can just may be, help with one of the cogs, as Wakas says in another thread. And for that we may help being ourselves, being kind and understanding as much as possible. May be we are strong and are not influenced by the environment, but other people are more vulnerable. We should not judge, but try to put ourselves in their skin and understand and help them become more self-reliant, since we have apparently more capacity to withstand fashion and peer-pressure.
Salaam
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Peace. Well i once told female friends that they were exposing their bodies, they only insulted me and got angry. They are christians. Since then, i avoid to tell people. Also, we have a right to judge. If we didn't judge, then how would we distinguish between right or wrong. We can judge but we should avoid to criticize except when we've been victim of a wrong. I believe that if a person feels he or she cannot judge, then that person is bound to be a mental slave of others.
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Peace. Well i once told female friends that they were exposing their bodies, they only insulted me and got angry. They are christians. Since then, i avoid to tell people. Also, we have a right to judge. If we didn't judge, then how would we distinguish between right or wrong. We can judge but we should avoid to criticize except when we've been victim of a wrong. I believe that if a person feels he or she cannot judge, then that person is bound to be a mental slave of others.
Yes you are right, I picked the wrong word. One has to judge and find what is good and correct. What I meant is avoit making a judgement as to the goodness or badness of a person, and rather try to understand his or her inner workings so that you can influence where your influence may ac, nor where he or she may be on the defensive and reject anything outright. People, specially the younger don't necessarily know what moves them. I would say, in order to influence as much as you can, which may be indeed very little
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Be yourself, act according to your convictions with simplicity, without voicing it or making a show.
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Be hospitable, I mean available to whomever may need company, understanding, help, sympathy, simple uncomplicated and upright comradeship... that too without being obvious or eager.
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Take people seriously. Each person is worth, sincerely respect them. Even if they are skimpy dressers, people learn respect, and when they get it they recognize it. If you do that I can assure you that it will pay. Not to you, may be, not this year, or next year. But it will make a difference, as little as you want, but it will. Remember the thread of our brother Wakas on the servicing of machines.
You are young, Tarikh, and as I see, very anxious to do the right thing. I congratulate you for it, and I am sure you are doing well. If I may, I would just say relax a little. Neither you nor I is going to change the world, God will change it how or when He wants, we just serve. Is all we can do and is the most beautiful thing any human being can do serve, and serving should be a source of peace, not of anxiety.
Salaam, all the best.
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It is understood that no one "associates" with his wife in the mosque. "Association" is allowed during fixed timings in the privacy of bed room. So the perception is that while one is in "aitkaaf" in the mosque there is no restriction in going home to know about the welfare/attend to the problems of wife/family but the restriction is on extreme "association"{Mazhar}
I gather that you are assuming that the wife is not also in retreat at the masjid. However, on reading that part of the aya, that is the first possibility that occurred to me. Any particular reason not to understand it so?
Mosque is a public place. And for "association" one has to impose restrictions on everyone not to interfere during three appointed times which are meant for "private/sex" affair. No such restriction can be imposed inside the mosque on anybody. It is plain that while one is in "aitkaf" in a mosque for a certain period of time there is a prohibition to have "association" with his wife which he could establish only by going home.
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Though dressing provocatively is a problem, it is not of prime concern. The prime concern is the person's disbelief in Allah as this is what will primarily take that person to the Fire. In the Qur'an, the main criteria to enter Hell Fire, is a lack of belief in Allah and good deeds done for Allah's pleasure.
Provocative dress is primarily a 'problem' because it is indicative of a person's disbelief in Allah. This should be the utmost concern for a believer, as it is this that will mean punishment of the Fire. So the believer should first and foremost invite this person to believing in Allah by pointing to them His Signs, this is the line of action he should take, not by telling them they are not dressing well/modestly. He may as well then point to the many other un-Qur'anic acts they do. Trying to address the issue of dress is therefore superfluous (because it is not the primary thing that wil lead them to Fire of Hell). They would most probably get offended, and then any prospect of inviting them to Allah is ruined. The most important thing is for them to have faith in Allah, so a believer should be primarily conerned about finding out about their views on Allah and the Herafter and inviting them to believing and devoting themselves to Allah. Modest dressing is something that follows on from believing in Allah and the Herafter, and in the Qur'an.
Perheps we can take the Prophet Solomon's lack of response/tolerance to the Queen of Sheba baring her legs , as an example. His foremost mission was to invite her to believing and surrendering to Allah. This should be the case with all believers in Allah.
But this is not to say that Believers should not speak out generally against things like the exploitation of women's body in the media and such. It promotes degredation of women to objects of sexuality. Addressing this issue collectively is not hampering one from inviting people to Allah, as it may do when adressing individuals.
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Provocative dress is primarily a 'problem' because it is indicative of a person's disbelief in Allah.
I do appreciate you saying that one shouldn't beleaguer someone about their dress, and that other issues are 'more important', but in the context of this thread, and the under currents in your message, I feel I must add my 'two cents worth at this juncture....
Are you sure of this above statement? And anyway, just what is 'provocative' dress?
Perheps we can take the Prophet Solomon's lack of response/tolerance to the Queen of Sheba baring her legs , as an example. His foremost mission was to invite her to believing and surrendering to Allah. This should be the case with all believers in Allah.
But this is not to say that Believers should not speak out generally against things like the exploitation of women's body in the media and such. It promotes degredation of women to objects of sexuality..
You know, I've found since I've been living amongst the 'muslims' of the middle east, that everything is reduced to a woman's sexuality - every gathering of people, every physical movement of a woman, a man's honor, the entire family's honor, etc. etc., I'm sorry to say. I see it to be the same situation as a dieter trying not to avoid cake saying, "I will not look at cake. I cannot look at cake. I must not have cake. Don't show me any cake. I can't eat cake -- especially cake that is not mine." In the end, the person is crazed to consume cake because cake is on his mind all the time. There have been psychological studies that show that the subconscious realms of the human brain doesn't take 'negatives' into consideration. "Eat cake," and "Don't eat cake," all are stored as thought processes that encourage one to, "Eat cake."
Do you get my point? So much focussing on what we 'ought not do' in terms of the sexes (individually or collectively, now or later), makes us dwell on the subject more than if it weren't something that you really thought about that often -- as was the case for me growing up other than 'muslim'.... Perhaps Solomon didn't mention it, because it wasn't on his mind, or it wasn't an issue to him either way. Do you or I, or anyone else for that matter really know what was going on in his mind???
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Peace. If a hindu or christian tells me that in their religion women participate fully at the places of worship, what do i reply if they ask me why cant women retreat to the mosque?
But women can retreat to the mosque, can't they? I mean, generally. Being things the way they are, may be there are many mosques where they can't retreat, but certainly they can as a principle, and indeed I know they do.
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Aswering to ILisa's message, yes, there is this obssession. In fact it is ironic that where Allah wants us not to get caught in indecency, by this obssession with dress pushed to the extreme with burqa and to a lesser extreme with hiyab, we spend half or more of our life worrying about indecency and dress. It is sad that while we may be for hours with men of "western" (for lack of better word) outlook who do not feel provoqued by most feminine dresses, those who by virtue of a better spiritual grooming should be even less provoqued, may in fact be "provoqued" by almost anything, as if it was their moral duty to feel always provoqued by the slightest thing and as if o feel provoqued was proof of higher moral sanding or something. That is, apart from laughable about the worst image of islam that could be given, an image in fact that confirms all negative stereotypes about the quranic revelation, and a terrible image of Muslim men, which is a real pity, because many times they do not deserve it at all, quite the opposite.
For the rest, I agree with Ace Of Hearts, certain things are socndary or derived, and it is a the source that we must look.
And now, that's it? ILisa you are guilty that right now I have to go out to buy some cake. angel angel
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Peace all
please don't take it this (restrictive) way. In real life, men and women can have any interaction they wish. If they are believers they will avoid what they consider forbidden.
lk
Just because we are believers doesnt mean we will obey Allah? i know it sounds bad, but just how many of His commands do we follow? We dont pray, drink (alcohol) etc etc and yet we say we Fear ALLAH?
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Greetings shez,
Just because we are believers doesnt mean we will obey Allah? i know it sounds bad, but just how many of His commands do we follow? We dont pray, drink (alcohol) etc etc and yet we say we Fear ALLAH?
First of all...depends on what your understanding of ''SLW" is.....second,ly who's chugging alcohol?? And thirdly, 'etc. etc'....which commands are 'we' blowing off???
What's your definition of the 'correct' behavior that shows that we fear Allah???
If I don't jump off the top of a tall building, for fear of getting smashed up, possibly killed, aren't I fearing God and his laws??
Perhaps the answer to your own question isn't as 'pat' as you'd like to think it is!
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Just because we are believers doesnt mean we will obey Allah? i know it sounds bad, but just how many of His commands do we follow? We dont pray, drink (alcohol) etc etc and yet we say we Fear ALLAH?
Sorry shez, i do not - at all - understand what you'r saying
peace lk
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Peace shez, what makes u think that we drink alcohol here? Even if we drank, it wouldn't exceed 1 glass unlike these hypos who follow bukhari and when they leave their country to go to europe, they indulge in the most lowly things like whisky, gambling, sleeping with prostitutes. And about prayers, the other 'muslims' pray so many rakats but yet remain misguided.