Quran inheritance mistake

unknownuser

Peace mmmouhammad,

a. Siblings will inherit as alternatives to children along with any or both of their parents.

Accordingly, no share is unknown.

father, brothers {two unknowns} - father 1/6, brother 5/6 verse 411
mother, sister {two unknowns} - mother 1/6, sister 5/6 verse 411

411...and to his PARENTS, to each one from them the 1/6 from what he left, if for him was a child

There is no child in those examples; how does the father and mother get 1/6?

mother, sister, brother {two unknowns} - mother 1/6, sister 1/25/6, brother 1/25/6 verse 411
father, 2 sisters, brother {three unknowns} father 1/6, each sister 1/45/6, brother 1/2 5/6 verse 411

wife, mother, father, sister, brother {three unknowns} - wife 1/4, mother & father each 1/63/4, sister & brother each 1/4 (1/21/2"remainder&quot - spouse use verse 412, rest as per verse 411

husband, mother, father, 2 sisters, brother {three unknowns} - husband 1/2, mother and father each 1/61/2, each sister 1/41/6, brother 1/2*1/6 - spouse use verse 412, rest as per verse 411

You are suggesting distributions are applicable to siblings when verse clearly says to children?

411
he directs you God in your CHILDREN
to the male equal luck the two females
so if they are women over two, so for them two thirds what he left,
and if she was one, so for her the half?

mmouhammad

Peace mmmouhammad,

411...and to his PARENTS, to each one from them the 1/6 from what he left, if for him was a child

There is no child in those examples; how does the father and mother get 1/6?

You are suggesting distributions are applicable to siblings when verse clearly says to children?

411
he directs you God in your CHILDREN
to the male equal luck the two females
so if they are women over two, so for them two thirds what he left,
and if she was one, so for her the half?

Peace Eid,

Verse 411 but if has siblings then to mother is 1/6 - what do you understand from this reduction of mother's share from 1/3 when has no children to 1/6 when has siblings?.

We both agree that verse 412 is Kalalah with children, that is spouse inherits first, then no parents therefore God allocates to siblings an equal amount to what would have been parents share if they were alive, the 1/3. Compare it to siblings' case in verse 411 read with fresh mind after answering why reducing mother's share 1/6 when deceased has siblings.

By the way, sibling/siblings mean sister or brother 1 to n regardless of gender. The term ikhwatun in Arabic is used when gender and number of sibling are unknown.

The conditions of Verse 411 are applicable in all cases where gender and number of inheritors are not specified. Have you not seen God uses them in both Kalalah verses?

Moreover, aren't deceased siblings mean children to his parents when inheriting with them, so he directs you God in your CHILDREN, is applicable to the inheriting parents and their children "deceased siblings"

nwryn

Salaam Eid,

I once had a theory that - from what meant fixed and - what meant variable in order to support using algebra normalization of shares which exceeded total inheritance. That did not work out to be consistent.

As in Ockham's razor line of reasoning the simplest view is most likely correct thus read verbatim.

Seems both fa-in (so if) and wa-in (and if) are ELSE IF case separators.

Yes, you're right; I see now that where "wa" is used to begin a new section, it is not followed by "in", so wa-in is like fa-in.

Yes the Arabic is masculine language; for him in verse applies also for her...

...say "God decrees in alkalalati, if human died, not for him a child, and for him a sister

sister, mother
1 - 1/2 sister = 1/2 mother

Likewise in 411 his, he, him apply equally to she and her.

411 and to his parents, to each one from them the sixth from what he left, if for him was a child (waladun), so if was not for him a child, and his parents inherited him, so to his mother the third, so if brothers were for him

Grammar rules as we have today are useless in most cases there was no written standard at the time.

OK. Why does it say "he inherits her" rather than "he inherits him" in 4176?

This is like asking "do you have brothers and children?" How would a person in most languages who has only one brother or one child reply? If only plural 411 would be inapplicable for all cases with one child as an example.

Therefore, the answer to the question "do you have children?"

Would be correct to answer YES -- if one child.

You know the "waladun" in 411, is it singular? If so, then why does it not say "a brother" instead of "ikhwatun", if the statement is about having at least one brother?

I believe so -- browse
http//www.openburhan.net/ob_w.php?w=3292

The destitute who are in need are
http//www.openburhan.net/ob_w.php?w=9811

OK thanks, I'll have a look later.

Children fatherless are considered orphans.

Children only inherit from the father?

nwryn

The above has me pondering for a while with key difference being in 4176 ikhwatan rijalan wanisaan is specified.

2+ siblings mixed (i.e. at least 1 brother + 1 or more sisters)
OR
3+ siblings mixed (i.e. at least 1 brother + 2 or more sisters) distributed at 21 ratio male female

Have work out all combinations on this.

I have a problem with the 21 malefemale ratio thing. The same phrase is used in 411, but we're not interpreting it as a ratio in that instance. I think the "two females" is referring to something specific, rather than being just an abstract concept.

Peace

nwryn

Salaam Noreen

Parents and spouses are dealt with in 411 and 412 respectively, with all the possibilities and the legitmate heirs who can have a share with them, including siblings.

Verse 4176 is exclusively for siblings when they are alone. No parents nor spouses are mentioned in this verse, and of course no children are ever mentioned with siblings and vise versa children curtail the right of siblings to inherit.

Salaam Samia,

Parents and spouses are not mentioned in 4176, but children (or the lack thereof) are, c.f. 412. So, don't you think that 4176 deals with a special case of kalaalah, where there are no children? Mother's and spouse's shares are fixed by 411-12 (except in the case of no father and no brother) ... so there is no need to mention them in 4176. I do have to say though, that it does seem a bit odd to use 4176 to determine mother's share when there are no brothers (and no father, assuming kalaalah = fatherless), but that does not mean that it is wrong.

Is your understanding of 411 that siblings may inherit in the presence of parents (and absence of children), but that this is not a kalaalah case? Do they inherit 1/6? How is this shared out amongst the siblings? Brothers' and sisters' shares are only specified in kalaalah cases. Shouldn't this mean that siblings only inherit from kalaalah?

Siblings aren't mentioned in the section on children, but neither are spouses nor are parents. Parents' shares in the presence and absence of children are mainly talked about in 411. Spouses' shares, with and without children, are mentioned fully in 412. Siblings' shares from kalaalah are in 412 for presence of children and 4176 for absence of children.

What does "his parents inherited him" mean? Does it not mean a special case where the father is present, i.e. the mentioning of the mother's share does not necessarily mean that the father is present?

nwryn

Peace all,

This is a theory I have, assuming that kalaalah means "fatherless".

Each new section begins with "wa" (but not "wa-in&quot, when it is needed as a separator. These sections are

Children
Parents/mother in certain scenarios
Husbands
Wives
Siblings in presence of children
Siblings and possibly mother in absence of children

Sections 2, 3, 4 and 5 all end with "mim ba'di wasiyyatin yoosee bihaa aw daynin" or a variation that agrees gramatically. Therefore these shares are fixed shares from the whole.

Sections 1 and 6 do not contain or end with that statement. Therefore, these are not fixed shares from the whole, but rules for dividing the remainder amongst the remaining legitimate heirs whose shares are not fixed. Of course, section 6 does not come into the picture when section 1 is being used, and vice versa.

I see no reason for kalaalah to mean "spouseless".

Samia

Salaam Samia,

Parents and spouses are not mentioned in 4176, but children (or the lack thereof) are, c.f. 412. So, don't you think that 4176 deals with a special case of kalaalah, where there are no children?

Salaam Nooreen
Kalala does not have children nor parents, but siblings.
4176 is a special case of kalala where there is no spouse (because a kalala can have a spouse).
However, a non kalala may have siblings who will inherit with the deceased parents (verse 411).

Inheritance verses deal with parents, so we should not presume that there is no father just because only the mother is mentioned. This is a rule in the inheritance verses which we clearly see when they deal with children and only mention the female/s share (verse 411).

Is your understanding of 411 that siblings may inherit in the presence of parents (and absence of children),

No. My understanding is that siblings of the deceased do not inherit in the presence of his/her children. The only heirs that inherit with children of the deceased are the parents and the spouse of the deceased.

Siblings aren't mentioned in the section on children, but neither are spouses nor are parents.

Parents are mentioned in the section of the children (411), and their share is mentioned in both cases of presence or absence of children. Spouses are mentioned in the section about spouses in their share is also determined by presence or absence of children. You can never find share of siblings dependent on "presence" of children, because siblings inherit only in absence of children.

Siblings' shares from kalaalah are in 412 for presence of children and 4176 for absence of children.

I do not agree. Share of kalala siblings is mentioned in case of presence of spouse in (412) which is the part dedicated to spouses, and in case they are the sole heirs; i. e absence of spouse in 4176. In 4176, nobody is mentioned other than siblings, so, and their share is not dependent on anything other than their number, so let's not presume that other heirs exist here, otherwise their existance should affect the siblings' share.

What does "his parents inherited him" mean? Does it not mean a special case where the father is present, i.e. the mentioning of the mother's share does not necessarily mean that the father is present?

I believe that the verses of inheritance do not deal with cases of only one parent nor with only one gender of siblings/children. Whenever a female is mentioned, the male counterpart is presumed exists.

Union

Peace all,
I see no reason for kalaalah to mean "spouseless".

Salam Nwryn . Then please distribute

Wife + Sister

Also mention your supporting verse...

Union

Salaam Nooreen

However, a non kalala may have siblings who will inherit with the deceased parents (verse 411).

Salam Samia . Then please distribute

wife+ mother+ father+ sister+ brother

Samia

Salam Samia . Then please distribute

wife+ mother+ father+ sister+ brother

Wife 25% / In what ye leave, their share is a fourth, if ye leave no child;

Mother 1/3 of the remaining 1/3 of 75% = 25%
Father 2/3 of the remaining = 2/3 of 75% = 50% (parents have equal shares only in presence of children; otherwise, it's 12 proportion)
Total 100%.

Siblings get nothing. They only inherit in either absence of spouse (411) or absence of parents (case of kelala) 412

Union

..Siblings get nothing. They only inherit in either absence of spouse (411) or absence of parents (case of kelala) 412

Dear Samia , Salam . Are you not contradicting your own verdict

Kalala does not have children nor parents, but siblings.
4176 is a special case of kalala where there is no spouse (because a kalala can have a spouse).
However, a non kalala may have siblings who will inherit with the deceased parents (verse 411).

I gave you a non-Kalala case still you cancelled siblings' share ...

Samia

Dear Samia , Salam . Are you not contradicting your own verdict

I gave you a non-Kalala case still you cancelled siblings' share ...

This is not a kelala case. You are stating existance of parents. My definition of kelala is a person who does not have parents nor children.

Union

This is not a kelala case. You are stating existance of parents. My definition of kelala is a person who does not have parents nor children.

That is what exactly I am saying . You said first that siblings inherit with parents (which is a non-Kalala case) but when I gave that non-Kelala case you curtailed siblings .

Kalala does not have children nor parents, but siblings.

4176 is a special case of kalala where there is no spouse (because a kalala can have a spouse).

However, a non kalala may have siblings who will inherit with the deceased parents (verse 411).

I don't know if I misunderstood you . In that case I need help from others please ...

Samia

I don't know if I misunderstood you .

I believe so...

Siblings get nothing. They only inherit in either absence of spouse (411) or absence of parents (case of kelala) 412

i.e if both the parent/s and the spouse exist, siblings do not inherit.

unknownuser

Peace Samia,

Wife 25% / In what ye leave, their share is a fourth, if ye leave no child;

Mother 1/3 of the remaining 1/3 of 75% = 25%
Father 2/3 of the remaining = 2/3 of 75% = 50% (parents have equal shares only in presence of children; otherwise, it's 12 proportion)
Total 100%.

Siblings get nothing. They only inherit in either absence of spouse (411) or absence of parents (case of kelala) 412

The above is correct and helpful to understand the mother's share is actually not fixed and ratio 12 is consistent

mother, father
1 ? 1/3 mother = 2/3 father

wife, parents
1 ? 1/4 wife = 3/4 parents (1/33/4 = 1/4 mother + 2/33/4 = 1/2 father or 12 ratio when no child)

husband, parents
1 ? 1/2 husband = 1/2 parents (1/31/2 = 1/6 mother + 2/31/2 = 1/3 father or 12 ratio when no child)

Please clarify...

IF parents no spouse ? do siblings inherit?
mother, father, sister (which verse 412 or 4176)

IF spouse no parents ? do siblings inherit?
husband, sister (which verse 412 or 4176)

Peace mmouhammad,

Verse 411 but if has siblings then to mother is 1/6 - what do you understand from this reduction of mother's share from 1/3 when has no children to 1/6 when has siblings?.

We both agree that verse 412 is Kalalah with children, that is spouse inherits first, then no parents therefore God allocates to siblings an equal amount to what would have been parents share if they were alive, the 1/3. Compare it to siblings' case in verse 411 read with fresh mind after answering why reducing mother's share 1/6 when deceased has siblings.

You may have a point although still don't agree with 411 being allocations for siblings which I realized after looking at Samia's calculation above keeps parent ratio always at 12 without child else if children parents share equally at 1/6 each.

and to his parents, to each one from them the 1/6 from what he left, if for him was a child
so if was not for him a child, and his parents inherited him, so to his mother the 1/3,
so if ikhwatun were for him, so to his mother the 1/6

Fa-in (ELSE IF) separate case parents inheritors; mother share 1/3 of amount allocated to parents.

mother, father
1 ? 1/3 mother = 2/3 father

wife, parents
1 ? 1/4 wife = 3/4 parents (1/33/4 = 1/4 mother + 2/33/4 = 1/2 father or 12 ratio when no child)

wife, father (no child father?s share is variable)
1 ? 1/4 wife = 3/4 father

wife, mother (no child, no father, no brethren, mother?s share is variable)
1 ? 1/4 wife = 3/4 mother

husband, parents
1 ? 1/2 husband = 1/2 parents (1/31/2 = 1/6 mother + 2/31/2 = 1/3 father or 12 ratio when no child)

husband, father (no child father?s share is variable)
1 ? 1/2 husband = 1/2 father

husband, mother (no father/brethren mother's share is variable)
1 ? 1/2 husband = 1/2 mother

Fa-in (ELSE IF) ikhwatun mother share 1/6 consistent when siblings allowed with children (i.e. case of Kalala with child 412)?

mother, children, siblings (412)
1 ? 1/6 mother ? 1/3 siblings max = 1/2 children

mother, siblings (4176)
1 ? 1/6 mother = 5/6 siblings

By the way, sibling/siblings mean sister or brother 1 to n regardless of gender. The term ikhwatun in Arabic is used when gender and number of sibling are unknown.

The conditions of Verse 411 are applicable in all cases where gender and number of inheritors are not specified. Have you not seen God uses them in both Kalalah verses?

I believe ikhwatun/brethren needs at least one male which he can be accompanied by any number of females/sisters. The same with - men/rijalan/mankind can refer to a male child in the company of many females as in 4176 'Ikhwatan Rijlan Wa Nis'an and not to a single woman or group of women/nisaan although have not researched every verse to see if this is consistently the case.

Moreover, aren't deceased siblings mean children to his parents when inheriting with them, so he directs you God in your CHILDREN, is applicable to the inheriting parents and their children "deceased siblings"

Well the verse clearly directs shares to the living children not to ?deceased siblings??

he directs you God in your CHILDREN
to the male equal luck the two females

Salaam Noreen,

OK. Why does it say "he inherits her" rather than "he inherits him" in 4176?

4176 Yastaftnaka Quli Allhu Yuftkum F Al-Kallati 'Ini Amru'uun Halaka Laysa Lahu Waladun Wa Lahu'Ukhtun Falah Nifu M Taraka Wa Huwa Yarithuh 'In Lam Yakun Lah Waladun Fa'in KnatAthnatayni Falahum Ath-Thuluthni Mimm Taraka Wa 'In Kn 'Ikhwatan Rijlan Wa Nis'an Falildhdhakari Mithlu a??i Al-'Unthayayni Yubayyinu Allhu Lakum 'An Taill Wa Allhu Bikulli Shay'in `Almun

Good question. Actually you one of the few that catches everything; very logical for a female? ;D

Have to look into it and few other things. We assume most of the words have been translated or understood correctly and I?ve come to the conclusion all translations and commentaries are mostly awful parroting someone?s opinions from long ago and constantly need to go back examine every word cross-reference for errors and contradictions.

You know the "waladun" in 411, is it singular? If so, then why does it not say "a brother" instead of "ikhwatun", if the statement is about having at least one brother?

Waladun can be singular or plural and likewise Ikhwatun can mean at least one brother or brother and 10 sisters.

Children only inherit from the father? o

Please post in complete sentences so we know what is shocking?lol

Peace

Samia

Please clarify...

IF parents no spouse ? do siblings inherit?
mother, father, sister (which verse 412 or 4176)

IF spouse no parents ? do siblings inherit?
husband, sister (which verse 412 or 4176)

Provided no children exist
1- Parents no spouse Siblings inherit (411) - siblings of non kelala
2- Spouse no parents Siblings inheit (412) - siblings of kelala

Siblings of kelala (parentless - childless) always inherit. Siblings of non kelala inherit only in absence of both children and spouse.

mmouhammad

Peace Eid,

Your example wife, parents

1 ? 1/4 wife = 3/4 parents (1/33/4 = 1/4 mother + 2/33/4 = 1/2 father or 12 ratio when no child)

So you are saying in this case if deceased has siblings, the only purpose their presence will serve is to reduce mothers share to 1/6 thus increasing father's share.
Has siblings; 1 ? 1/4 wife = 3/4 parents (1/6*3/4 = 1/8 mother + (1/6+ 2/3)*3/4 = 5/8 father or 15 ratio

Your examples of Kalalah

Fa-in (ELSE IF) ikhwatun mother share 1/6 consistent when siblings allowed with children (i.e. case of Kalalah with child 412)?

mother, children, siblings (412)
1 ? 1/6 mother ? 1/3 siblings max = 1/2 children

So here you are giving mother and siblings 1/2; this portion is more than what would both parents get inheriting with children which is 1/3.

Verse 411 and if he has no children so to his mother is 1/3 but if he has siblings then to his mother is 1/6.
The logic makes the "has no children" the case for asking about presence of siblings, simply because when parents inherit with has children, siblings are not considered.

If has children then - if this statement is true the case ends after completing then clause
To his parents each is 1/6 - mother alone or father alone has no affect on the if condition.
Else if has no children then
If has sibling then
To his mother is 1/6
Else
To his mother is 1/3
End if
End if

If you use the following if then else if cases, the sibling else if case will never be reached because one of the first 2 cases will always be true.

If has children then
To his parents each is 1/6
Else If has no children then
To his mother is 1/3
Else If has siblings then - this case will never be reached
To his mother is 1/6
End If

Your example
mother, siblings (4176)
1 ? 1/6 mother = 5/6 siblings

What if mother + sister; under 4176 and has one sister to her is 1/2. So mother 1/6 and sister 1/2. The question is who gets the remainder, is it the mother or is it the sister and why?

The following Questions are for you to consider
Is mother alone a parent or not?
Doesn't mother alone inherits under 411 and to his parents each is 1/6 if has children?
Doesn't mother alone inherits under 411 and if has no children and being inherited by his parents then to mother is 1/3?
Is it not that part of 411 "but if has siblings then to his mother is 1/6" suggests siblings inherits with parents when deceased has no children?
Doesn't verse 411 meet the 2 conditions, has no children and has siblings?

Union

Provided no children exist
1- Parents no spouse Siblings inherit (411) - siblings of non kelala
2- Spouse no parents Siblings inheit (412) - siblings of kelala

But how much ?

Siblings of kelala (parentless - childless) always inherit. Siblings of non kelala inherit only in absence of both children and spouse.

Then how you reconcile the contradiction here

Sister will inhereit 1/6 (412)

Sister will inherit 1/2 (4176)

Both are under Kalala condition .There should be an index of difference between the two Kalala conditions .

Thanks.

Samia

But how much ?

How much
411
A- Mother 1/6; father 1/3; siblings get the rest. Mother no father father's share if he was alive goes to the mother, so the mother gets 1/2 and 1/2 goes to the siblings.
B- One sibling 1/6; more they share 1/3; spouse gets the rest

Then how you reconcile the contradiction here

Sister will inhereit 1/6 (412)

Sister will inherit 1/2 (4176)

Both are under Kalala condition .There should be an index of difference between the two Kalala conditions .

Thanks.

Sister in 412 is a sister of kelala who has a spouse. Since spouse of kelala's share is not defined, the spouse gets the rest.
Sister in 4176 is of a kelala who does not have a spouse. If she is the sole heir she gets all. The half is presuming existance of counterpart male/s.

A-We should remember that whenever a female is mentioned, a male counterpart is presumed. No guidance on same gender since it's obvious. No verse on a sole heir beause it's obvious too we cannot give any share to any relative not entitled to the inheritance and thus not mentioned. For example verse 4176 is for siblings only. (his siste gets half) presumes existance of at least one brother. If he has only a sister, she gets the whole inheritance since no eligible heir exists. Shares of siblings in 4176 follow the formulae for children.

B-Another point is that, if the allotted shares are less than the whole, the remainder goes back to the nearest relative.

Relatives according to nearness to the deceased
1st- Children
2nd- Parents
3rd- Spouse
4th- Siblings

unknownuser

Salaam Samia,

Provided no children exist
1- Parents no spouse Siblings inherit (411) - siblings of non kelala
2- Spouse no parents Siblings inheit (412) - siblings of kelala

Siblings of kelala (parentless - childless) always inherit. Siblings of non kelala inherit only in absence of both children and spouse.

Please distribute according to Qur'an...

1- Parents no spouse Siblings inherit (411) - siblings of non kelala

parents, sister = ?
mother, sister = ?

father, brother = ?
father, brother, sister = ?

2- Spouse no parents Siblings inheit (412) - siblings of kelala

wife, brother 1 - 1/4 wife - 1/6 brother = 7/12 unallocated
husband, brother 1 - 1/2 husband - 1/6 brother = 1/3 unallocated

Lastly, no spouse or parents with whom do Al-Kallati's sister 1/2 or two sisters 2/3 share with?

4176
They ask your clarification, say "God decrees in Al-Kallati, if human died, not for him a child,
and for him a sister, so for her half what he left, and he inherits her if was not for her a child,
and if they were two, so to them the two thirds from what he left,
and if they were brethren men and women, so to the male equal fortune the two females,
God clarifies for you that you (not) be misguided, and God is with every thing knowledgeable.