What Edip Is Trying To Tell Us?

Layth

Salam,

Dear may be my english is causing some confusions and you are not getting my point, Ok let me try once again.
Edip has accused Kamal Nawash and his organization for having some hidden motives and which are against Islam, After studying and knowing about Kamal Nawash I see many similarities between your organization and his, for example changing the meaning of Quran or rather translating english words for arabic words which are according to moderen day scenario because you live in society which does not accept old translation of Quran; forgetting that Quran was revealed 1400 years ago. Kamal is highlighted by the westeren media favourably and so is your orgnizaition. Edip was once traditionalist Muslim and had no say in westeren world but now the world has changed for him after and that also seems true for some old Saudi.

Your assumptions are clearly wrong. The translation of the Quran I support renders the words as they are while taking into account the subject and supporting verses - it is a matter of accuracy and never about changing words from their meaning to fit preconcieved notions or agendas outside of God`s teachings. Now, if such translation is at odds with the set understanding of the masses or what has been transmitted by their scholars - then that is not my concern nor a subject I care about.

His and I guess your combined effort of translating Quran in a new way has gained praise from Irshad Menji and Amina Wadud , this says it all.

It does not say it all. Would you rather Edip or I turn away those who might be seeking the path of God? The Quran instructs us not to turn away those that may seek God`s grace (652, 801-4) eventhough on the surface they may not appear to be likely candidates.

In quest for truth you seem to be going to far away, as is our friend Ayman; who has changed the Kaaba without Allah's consent. In order to please Jews and Christians and others we are going so far away from the original, we have forget what Allah said in Quran

Please explain to me how the Jews or Christians would be pleased that we call for Jerusalem to be the heart of the pilgrimage? Would that support their case for ownership of Jerusalem and Palestine or would that work against them? Also, explain to me how the Jews and Christians would be pleased that we claim Islam to be a just and logical system which outshines any other system on Earth vs. the current sunni and shia fanatics who amputate hands, veil women, kill apostates, make the prophet into a sex maniac, avoid technology, live in superstition and hate, and above all have no concept of sence or justice!

Which do you think the Jews or Christians would hate more? The ones who hold to the Quran, or the ones who have abondoned it?

How did you find the path of God Alone, after settling in USA? Why most of the well wishers of Islam are discarded in their own countries, they even have to hide their identities and they are residing in Europe and USA? this is strange very strange
Edip, You, Kamal, Irshad, Rushdie, Tasleema a long list, i am just curious, how can I differentiate you from the rest I REALLY WANT TO.

I live in the Middle East - not US. Secondly, I found the path of God alone by the grace of God - not by the location I was in! If I am not mistaken, Edip found the path when he was in a jail in Turkey? I found the path when I was working abroad for a short stint. God finds and guides those who seek Him, and I have, as long as I can remember, sought Him (may He be glorified forever).

Fadhli

I found the path while surfing ... ;D... not kidding... true story....

Peace Rajah may Allah shed you His light... handshake

Raj-ah

Layth

Your assumptions are clearly wrong. The translation of the Quran I support renders the words as they are while taking into account the subject and supporting verses - it is a matter of accuracy and never about changing words from their meaning to fit preconcieved notions or agendas outside of God`s teachings

Some of my friends are studying this translation in detail and shortly we will point out where the meanings of words have been changed to fit preconcieved notions offcourse I am sure not deliberatley.
But for as of now what about the usage of the word "Progressive" in your translation ? Was it by Mistake or Deliberately added?

Layth

It does not say it all. Would you rather Edip or I turn away those who might be seeking the path of God? The Quran instructs us not to turn away those that may seek God`s grace (652, 801-4) eventhough on the surface they may not appear to be likely candidates
.

No sir, it is not about turning any one away from path of God. What I am saying is that we all Know about Irshad Menji and Amina Wadud and if the people of their alike are happy with what you have presented then this tells the story.

Layth

Please explain to me how the Jews or Christians would be pleased that we call for Jerusalem to be the heart of the pilgrimage? Would that support their case for ownership of Jerusalem and Palestine or would that work against them? Also, explain to me how the Jews and Christians would be pleased that we claim Islam to be a just and logical system which outshines any other system on Earth vs. the current sunni and shia fanatics who amputate hands, veil women, kill apostates, make the prophet into a sex maniac, avoid technology, live in superstition and hate, and above all have no concept of sence or justice!

Which do you think the Jews or Christians would hate more? The ones who hold to the Quran, or the ones who have abondoned it?

O you who believe, do not take Jews and Christians as allies; these are allies of one another. Those among you who ally themselves with these belong with them. GOD does not guide the transgressors

I am just going to explain it in the following post.

unknownuser

But for as of now what about the usage of the word "Progressive" in your translation ? Was it by Mistake or Deliberately added?

Progress, horrible word. Still disgusting to traditionalists after 1000 years of stagnation...

Raj-ah

Quran
"And proclaim that the people shall observe Hajj pilgrimage. They will come to you walking or riding on various exhausted means of transportation. They will come from the farthest locations."

This is a prophecy and it only is true in Makkah which is in saudi Arabia.

"The Hajj Time", there is no Hajj time in Jerusalem, in another words no one calls us to do Hajj in Juresalem.

Mecca is the only place where People come for HAJJ from all over the world from farthest places in an organized manner, Mecca is the only place where this practice is carried out for last 1500 years every year without any break.
No other place in the world is there we people go for Hajj or are called for Hajj.
Hajj shall be observed in the specified months. Whoever sets out to observe Hajj shall refrain from sexual intercourse, misconduct, and arguments throughout Hajj. Whatever good you do, GOD is fully aware thereof. As you prepare your provisions for the journey, the best provision is righteousness. You shall observe Me, O you who possess intelligence.

Only in Mecca people go for Hajj in specific months, and refrain from Sexual intercourse and misconduct. Where else do people go for Hajj in specified months refraining from Sex etc.?

You shall observe the complete rites of Hajj andUmrah for GOD. If you are prevented, you shall send an offering, and do not resume cutting your hair until your offering has reached its destination. If you are ill, or suffering a head injury, you shall expiate by fasting, or giving to charity, or some other form of worship. During the normal Hajj, if you break the state of Ihraam between Umrah and Hajj, you shall expiate by offering an animal sacrifice. If you cannot afford it, you shall fast three days during Hajj and seven when you return home - this completes ten - provided you do not live at the Sacred Masjid. You shall observe GOD, and know that GOD is strict in enforcing retribution

Where else do people stop cutting their hairs until sacrifice of the animal is done? Where else do people during HAjj offer Kafara in the shape of Fasting during HAjj??

You commit no error by seeking provisions from your Lord by trading. When you file from `Arafaat, you shall commemorate GOD at the Sacred Location. You shall commemorate Him for guiding you; before this, you had gone astray.

Where else do in the world we see trading during Hajj season, and the place Arafat?

If all these things mentioned in Quran combined happen some where else other then Mecca, Then is the case of those who impressed by Jewish and Christian missionaries propoganda say that Kaaba is not the place Abraham was assigned to purify.

Now why the Jews and Christians will not be happy if Muslims disobey Allah's orders in Quran?

Raj-ah

OPf

Progress, horrible word. Still disgusting to traditionalists after 1000 years of stagnation...

dig hard but the fact is what arabic word they translated as "Progressive"?

farida

the arguments that Ayman puts forward with the archeological evidence regarding the Kaaba are convincing enough but we need to do more research.

No, they are not convincing at all!
Please read "The Linguistic Footprints of Lehi ? 2002
by Bruce A. Santucci
and also visit the site Islamic awareness.

Layth

Salam,

Quran
"And proclaim that the people shall observe Hajj pilgrimage. They will come to you walking or riding on various exhausted means of transportation. They will come from the farthest locations."

This is a prophecy and it only is true in Makkah which is in saudi Arabia.

"The Hajj Time", there is no Hajj time in Jerusalem, in another words no one calls us to do Hajj in Juresalem.

Mecca is the only place where People come for HAJJ from all over the world from farthest places in an organized manner, Mecca is the only place where this practice is carried out for last 1500 years every year without any break.
No other place in the world is there we people go for Hajj or are called for Hajj.

That is your reason for accepting Mecca?

Abraham called to the Hajj over 4,000 years ago and people came to Bakka.

You are claiming that we should ignore such facts and look at what the majority of so called muslims have been doing for the past 1,400 year?

Here is what God tells us about the majority

And if you obey the majority of those on Earth they will lead you astray; that is because they follow conjecture, and that is because they only guess. (Qur?an 6116)

And most of them will not believe in God except while setting-up partners. (12106)

I recommend you examine this issue based on the facts of the Quran. Otherwise, if you insist to look to what the others are doing/saying, then you can`t blame anyone but yourself if you are misguided by their teachings.

Only in Mecca people go for Hajj in specific months, and refrain from Sexual intercourse and misconduct. Where else do people go for Hajj in specified months refraining from Sex etc.?

Actually, they don`t. They perform their Hajj in a specific month whereas as you rightly pointed out, the Quran says monthS

As for Arafaat and the other items (Safa and Marwa) you can read what I have written on the subject at detail and decide which location fits the Quran`s description (Mecca or Jerusalem).

unknownuser

OPf
dig hard but the fact is what arabic word they translated as "Progressive"?

OK, you do have a point there ;D

Edip_Yuksel

OPf dig hard but the fact is what arabic word they translated as "Progressive"?

It was in my earlier draft for verse 665, where I suggested several meanings for the word eBKaR early risers, frontrunners, or progressive. But in my later revision, I deleted the word progressive. Nevertheless, the word PROGRESS is used as a verbal description for muslims in 7437

"For any among you who wishes to progress or regress." (7437).

As for your other allegations, you appear to rely on conspiracy theories and ready to put me in one of your Con-Boxes without even veryfing the allegations. For instance, I do not necessarily agree with all the ideas of those who endorsed the Reformist Translation of the Quran, nor their endorsement of the translation means that they agree with every translation and arguments in it. Furthermore, the endorsers may not also agree with each other. For instance, Kassim Ahmad of Malesia is just on the opposite side of Manji, politically. (I was surprized that you did not mention his name and the name of others, such as Caner Taslaman, Aisha Musa, etc.) If you do not live in the "Black or White" world of fanatics you wil understand the subbtleties I mentioned above.

Regardless, I will be glad to receive your criticism since it will

Help you to learn something that you did not know before.
Help us learn something that we did not know before.
Help us to improve the Quran a Reformist Translation for its next prints.
...

Peace,
Edip

Raj-ah

Layth

That is your reason for accepting Mecca?
Abraham called to the Hajj over 4,000 years ago and people came to Bakka.
You are claiming that we should ignore such facts and look at what the majority of so called muslims have been doing for the past 1,400 year?
Here is what God tells us about the majority
And if you obey the majority of those on Earth they will lead you astray; that is because they follow conjecture, and that is because they only guess. (Qur?an 6116)
And most of them will not believe in God except while setting-up partners. (12106)
I recommend you examine this issue based on the facts of the Quran. Otherwise, if you insist to look to what the others are doing/saying, then you can`t blame anyone but yourself if you are misguided by their teachings.

This is very important issue, and I surely want to discuss it with you because this realy affects one's faith.
My reasons for accepting Makkah as Bakkah are following based on Quran

"And proclaim that the people shall observe Hajj pilgrimage. They will come to you walking or riding on various exhausted means of transportation. They will come from the farthest locations."

These are words of Allah which were revealed to us through an "Arab" in "Arabic" language 1400 years ago
right? Since these words were revealed there is no single valid "PROOF" repeat single "VALID" proof that People from farthest places in organized manner ever went to any other place for HAJJ.
I have faith in the words of Allah, We can see it with our eyes and it has been seen since the time of "Arab" prophet that people are going to Makkah for Hajj and if they are not going to the correct place as you assume then it means the words of Allah are not true for last 1400 years or so.

Please read these Ayats very carefully once again as you have based your arguments on this particular Ayat.

Say, "GOD has proclaimed the truth You shall follow Abraham's religion - monotheism. He never was an idolater."

The most important shrine established for the people is the one in Becca; a blessed beacon for all the people.

In it are clear signs the station of Abraham. Anyone who enters it shall be granted safe passage. The people owe it to GOD that they shall observe Hajj to this shrine, when they can afford it. As for those who disbelieve, GOD does not need anyone.

Say, "O followers of the scripture, why do you reject these revelations of GOD, when GOD is witnessing everything you do?"
Say, "O followers of the scripture, why do you repel from the path of GOD those who wish to believe, and seek to distort it, even though you are witnesses?" GOD is never unaware of anything you do.
O you who believe, if you obey some of those who received the scripture, they will revert you, after having believed, into disbelievers.

Now dear Layth; If Bakkah is in Jerusalem the Jews of the time would have been very happy and at once would have accepted the Ayats revealed, BUT after telling them (Jews & Christians) regarding Abraham and the location of the sanctuary ALLAH says
Say, "O followers of the scripture, why do you reject these revelations of GOD, when GOD is witnessing everything you do?"
It clearly means that Jews and Christians did not agreed with what Is mentioned in previous verses, so after analysing these verses we can clearly tell that Kaaba is not in Jerusalem other wise Jews and Christians would have not rejected but rejoiced.
But they have a time to rejoice now because we are reforming Islam we are reforming the Word of Allah, but Allah clearly says

O you who believe, do not take Jews and Christians as allies; these are allies of one another. Those among you who ally themselves with these belong with them. GOD does not guide the transgressors

Waiting for your Input.

Bigmo

Samia
How can be their difference of understanding in Quran in this particular verse, unless and until you deliberately want to change it.

The word used for 'head covering' in this ayat is 'Khumr'. In Arabic this word is specifically and only used for the head covering cloth, you should now this better then me. If God did not mean to direct towards the observance of head covering, usage of such a word seems unnecessary and a cause for confusion, charateristics that the word of God certainly do not possess.
The fact that this word is used and no other is in itself a pointer towards head covering.
Now my stance on this is that it was clear cut order by Allah for the women of that time and by studying the history and culture this confirms, but since it was for a particular time as there are many other ayats as pointed out by me from time to time, we must by Ijtihad allow ourselves to decide it what is modest dress for ourselves within the frame work of Quran.

"End of the story" as sweet Majidah states.

The problem is you are confusing verses in the Koran with divne command. Now the Koran tells the believers to prepare horses and steads for war,it also says He hasgiven humanscattles and animals to ride on so as to alleviate the suffering of travel. It also talks about slaves and talks about standing in line in battle and the striking of the swords. Clearly these verses must be seen at the timeperiod it was revealed and to thepeopl it was revealed to since none of thisis relevant to most of us today.

The koran also talks about the jizya and talks about other things not relevant today. As far as stealing and cutting hands well this is not how Joseph rules on his brethren when he tricked them into thinking that his younger brother stole. Joseph asked his brethren what is your custom regarding this and they said that the criminal should be held in bondage. So different times may have differing penal customs even among the prophets. So why stop at the 7th century? Many of these penal systems were relevantto their times and were practiced by the pagan Arabs themselves and their surroundings. None of the Pagans objected to these legal rulings as they were similar to theirs but they objected to the theology(such as not mentioning the gods during slaughter) and also some of the dietary rules the Koran condemned which they followed. The Pagans refused to accept an after life but had no problms with khimar or cuuting hands of theif or flogging adulterers and so on since it was similar to theirown customs and legal framework.

The Kora says Islam is a religion, while you are treating it as a state.

Edip_Yuksel

The problem is you are confusing verses in the Koran with divne command.

Let's see

Now the Koran tells the believers to prepare horses and steads for war,

But, the verse 860 says "any power you can afford" and then provides an example. Interestingly, even the example could be understood differently, in different times. Today, the expression "horse power" is used as a unit to measure the power of machines. I do not find it a simple coincidence.

it also says He hasgiven humans cattles and animals to ride on so as to alleviate the suffering of travel.

Well, somehow you forgot the rest of the verse

168 And the horses, and mules, and donkeys, that you may ride them and as an adornment. And He creates what you do not know. God created trains, cars, airoplanes, and space ships.

It also talks about slaves

Yes, it talks about slavery, but nowhere the Quran justifies slavery. Besides, from the verses critical of slavery we drive very important philosophical and political lessons, which guide us now and perhaps in the future. According to the Quran we should not submit ourselves to anyone accept our Creator, God, who is the ONLY RABB (LORD)

and talks about standing in line in battle and the striking of the swords.

Which verse are you referring to? I do not recall a verse containing the word SaYF (sword) in the Quran.

Clearly these verses must be seen at the timeperiod it was revealed and to thepeopl it was revealed to since none of thisis relevant to most of us today.

Clearly, these verses should be read carefully, with their context in mind; they are as relevant as they were in the past.

The koran also talks about the jizya and talks about other things not relevant today.

Jizya is not an extra tax on People of the Book, but "compensation" or "war reperation" imposed on the agressing party after the war ends. So, we should also critically study the meaning of some key words, which might have been distorted to promote some agendas...

As far as stealing and cutting hands well this is not how Joseph rules on his brethren when he tricked them into thinking that his younger brother stole. Joseph asked his brethren what is your custom regarding this and they said that the criminal should be held in bondage. So different times may have differing penal customs even among the prophets. So why stop at the 7th century?

Because the verse about "cutting-off hands" or "marking the hands" or "cutting the means" of thieves is an "instruction." If we are going to dismiss instructions of the Quran because of your misunderstanding and idolization of your cultural norms, then we will each have our version of Quran in literal sense.

Many of these penal systems were relevant to their times and were practiced by the pagan Arabs themselves and their surroundings. None of the Pagans objected to these legal rulings as they were similar to theirs but they objected to the theology (such as not mentioning the gods during slaughter) and also some of the dietary rules the Koran condemned which they followed. The Pagans refused to accept an after life but had no problms with khimar or cutting hands of theif or flogging adulterers and so on since it was similar to theirown customs and legal framework.

An interesting and nice argument. I am not sure how factual the statements are. I have little time now.

The Koran says Islam is a religion, while you are treating it as a state.

I disagree. Islam is a system involving personal philosophy and conduct, social norms and law, war and peace, politics and economy. Islam is the name of a system where indiduals are free in their religion, philosophy and are encouraged to live together in peace. In modern terminology In political arena, Islam promotes a "federal secular democratic government that aims to establish justice and peace on earth."

Peace,
Edip

Raj-ah

Edip Yuksel

As for your other allegations, you appear to rely on conspiracy theories and ready to put me in one of your Con-Boxes without even veryfing the allegations.

Edip Yuksel
Adnan Oktar?s cult engages in group sex and promote anal sex with girls they consider ?concubines?.

Have you verified the above allegation before accusing them? If yes I would like to see the proof.

Edip Yuksel
Adnan Oktar?s cult promotes racism, more specifically, anti-Jewish ideas

What about this Ayat? does it also promotes anti Jewish ideas?
O you who believe, do not take Jews and Christians as allies; these are allies of one another. Those among you who ally themselves with these belong with them. GOD does not guide the transgressors

This does not mean that, I in any way endorse the thought of Adnan Oktar or am his follower, but we want to see a practical Muslim and not the one "Who does not what he says".

Layth

Dear Rajah,

This is very important issue, and I surely want to discuss it with you because this realy affects one's faith.
My reasons for accepting Makkah as Bakkah are following based on Quran

"And proclaim that the people shall observe Hajj pilgrimage. They will come to you walking or riding on various exhausted means of transportation. They will come from the farthest locations."

These are words of Allah which were revealed to us through an "Arab" in "Arabic" language 1400 years ago
right? Since these words were revealed there is no single valid "PROOF" repeat single "VALID" proof that People from farthest places in organized manner ever went to any other place for HAJJ.
I have faith in the words of Allah, We can see it with our eyes and it has been seen since the time of "Arab" prophet that people are going to Makkah for Hajj and if they are not going to the correct place as you assume then it means the words of Allah are not true for last 1400 years or so.

The person being addressed in 2226-29 is Abraham, not Mohammed. Therefore, if you want your research to be accurate, you need to talk about Abraham and show the fulfillment of this prophecy that occurred over 4,000 years ago when the call to pilgrimage was made - which you have not done.

Also, from what you have written above, I take it that you believe the person being addressed is Mohammed due to the Quran being revealed in Arabic? If so, then this is a very strange conclusion as the Quran was made Arabic 433 so that its recipients could understand it (it encompasses stories and tales of people since the start of man, but all conversations have been made Arabic so we may understand them).

Please read these Ayats very carefully once again as you have based your arguments on this particular Ayat.

Say, "GOD has proclaimed the truth You shall follow Abraham's religion - monotheism. He never was an idolater."

The most important shrine established for the people is the one in Becca; a blessed beacon for all the people.

In it are clear signs the station of Abraham. Anyone who enters it shall be granted safe passage. The people owe it to GOD that they shall observe Hajj to this shrine, when they can afford it. As for those who disbelieve, GOD does not need anyone.

Say, "O followers of the scripture, why do you reject these revelations of GOD, when GOD is witnessing everything you do?"
Say, "O followers of the scripture, why do you repel from the path of GOD those who wish to believe, and seek to distort it, even though you are witnesses?" GOD is never unaware of anything you do.
O you who believe, if you obey some of those who received the scripture, they will revert you, after having believed, into disbelievers.

Now dear Layth; If Bakkah is in Jerusalem the Jews of the time would have been very happy and at once would have accepted the Ayats revealed, BUT after telling them (Jews & Christians) regarding Abraham and the location of the sanctuary ALLAH says
Say, "O followers of the scripture, why do you reject these revelations of GOD, when GOD is witnessing everything you do?"
It clearly means that Jews and Christians did not agreed with what Is mentioned in previous verses, so after analysing these verses we can clearly tell that Kaaba is not in Jerusalem other wise Jews and Christians would have not rejected but rejoiced.
But they have a time to rejoice now because we are reforming Islam we are reforming the Word of Allah, but Allah clearly says

Your obsession with what the Jews or Christians think or say is driving your conclusions. The Muslims were facing Jerusalem during the revelation of the Quran and accepted it as their first Qibla - yet, most Jews/Christians did not give a damn and still rejected the revelation of the Quran!

Also, since we are on the subject of Mecca, let us highlight that a town named Mecca is mentioned in the Quran 4824 as a place of hostility to the campaign of the prophet and that, when the prophet was in the center of this wicked town, they were trying to bar his way from reaching the Masjid Al-Haram (i.e. the masjid alharam was never in this town, but was elsewhere).

If anything, Mecca (the one mentioned in the Quran and the one that exists today) is a place of of idolitary, and, since you like talking about prophecies, then let`s talk about the prophecy of 928 where God states

O you who believe, those who have set up partners are impure, so let them not approach the Sacred Temple after this year of theirs; and if you fear poverty, then God will enrich you from His blessings if He wills. God is Knowledgeable, Wise

According to this, the mushrikeen are forbidden from entering the masjid alharam after this proclamation from God - yet, as we all know - the core mushrikeen (sunnis and shia) have been having access to the Mecca masjid for nearly 1,400 years as you pointed out!

As for Jerusalem, the temple is neither in effect nor has it been used since early after the death of the prophet (with abdulmalik bin marwan possibly being the last to push for its use with his upgrade of the dome of the rock) - also, did you know that Abdulmalik bin marwan ordered an attack on the kaaba in mecca specifically and that it was destroyed by catapults launched at it by the Islamic army? I find it bizarre that a man would go to war with a cube unless he understood that such a place was made out of falsehood and deception.

O you who believe, do not take Jews and Christians as allies; these are allies of one another. Those among you who ally themselves with these belong with them. GOD does not guide the transgressors

Please read what you quote carefully. The verse above says allies and to my knowledge, none here have taken any such allies. We are allied with the believers, not with the mushrikeen or the rejecters.

Now, if you understand allies to mean that you agree with something they may say - then - you have one serious problem and you might as well denounce monotheism since the jews/christians may believe in it as well - God forbid!

Bigmo