What Edip Is Trying To Tell Us?
-
Even if we do not agree with the Edip's comments regarding Nawash's article regarding Bhutto, still we should listen to him carefully and try to understand and analyse it.
The forum FM has always been controversial, I have seen young people, women and those who are recently attracted to Islam fall prey to the false propoganda of many writers here and get more confused about Islam in general.
To start with I have few questions if anyone like to answer it
- What is the connection of James Hubber with the site, is he LAYTH?
- Kamal Nawash is a political personality and has his own agenda (party agenda), how come he can do justice between an alien religon in his country and the culture? we have seen the jump in his stance.
- Nawash is fond of fund raising? In 2001 Nawash raised $57,057 and in 2003 he raised $180,339 now fund is being raised for new testament of Quran?
- Why the writers and some of Moderators of this site seem to deny each and every thing that is existing in Islam and try to include such things such as not wearing of Head covering, Changing of KIBLA, trying to make Muhammad a controversial figure etc.? and even trying to change the month of fasting? and trying to make EID controversial?
these are few to begin with, offcourse with good intentions and this will also allow you to clear the allegations by Edip.
-
Salam,
- What is the connection of James Hubber with the site, is he LAYTH?
Layth is a real name - it is my first name. I do not use any other name.
On group projects we have used ProgressiveMuslims as a penname (which is now being replaced with
The Monotheist Group).- Kamal Nawash is a political personality and has his own agenda (party agenda), how come he can do justice between an alien religon in his country and the culture? we have seen the jump in his stance.
- Nawash is fond of fund raising? In 2001 Nawash raised $57,057 and in 2003 he raised $180,339 now fund is being raised for new testament of Quran?
The transaltion project is one of many that are being worked on - the objectives and purposes are made clear for any to participate in.
- Why the writers and some of Moderators of this site seem to deny each and every thing that is existing in Islam and try to include such things such as not wearing of Head covering, Changing of KIBLA, trying to make Muhammad a controversial figure etc.? and even trying to change the month of fasting? and trying to make EID controversial?
I believe you are looking at things with a
glass half emptyapproach. Most here are seekers of truth and in their journey to accept and follow the teachings of God Alone they ultimately reach juntions where the path and teachings fo god are to be followed or where the teachings and culture in-place is to be followers. It is not about any desire to change - rather - it is a journey towards truth. -
Thanks for responding and taking time out from your busy schedule. I hope you will further clarify my following observations for the betterment of site and the the posters.
Layth
I believe you are looking at things with a
glass half emptyapproach. Most here are seekers of truth and in their journey to accept and follow the teachings of God Alone they ultimately reach juntions where the path and teachings fo god are to be followed or where the teachings and culture in-place is to be followers. It is not about any desire to change - rather - it is a journey towards truth.Dr. Amina Wadud who is I guess an active member of your organization, correct me if I am wrong has following thoughts
She claimed that she can decide which texts of the Qur'an are acceptable within the realm of "civilization" and which are not. For instance, she finds that the cutting off of the hand of a thief is not acceptable for a civilized person like her. This is the basic thought seen in almost all the articles and most of the Moderators thought. Therefore once decided the cutting of hand is not civilization she tries to use each and every translation which suites her idea, the same case is in head covering thread.
For a Muslim, there can only be acceptance of Allah's word. There can't be any rejection as i posted in the previous thread.She also claimed that "same sex" marriages are okay. However, in Islam there is absolutely no place for "same sex" marriages and homosexuality. We know that America is a free society and people here can indulge in all kinds of sexuality, from group sex to hard porn techniques, without any serious problem. That does not mean that a follower of Islam should succumb to these pressures and start proving how "progressive" she is by turning HARAM into HALAL.
And Kamal saying this
My favorite religious leader of the 20th century is Pope John Paul II. He has integrity, honesty and does not let foolish pride get in the way of truth. I thought it was historic of him to apologize to the world for many of the atrocities committed by Christians over the last 2000 years. I wish that the leaders of all other religions admit and apologize for the atrocities they have committed. The point here is that the atrocities committed by Muslims, including the recent ones are not unique to this world. No religion has clean hands.Now, since no Muslim leader has yet to apologize for Muslim atrocities, I will follow the lead of Pope John Paul by apologizing for all the atrocities committed by Muslims. I am sorry for violent Jihad, I am sorry for forced conversions and I am sorry for 911. I will never forget the sight of seeing people fall from the twin towers. I can?t imagine what those people must have felt as they jumped from one of the highest buildings in the world with the irrational hope of surviving rather than face a certain death by burning. I will never forget, and I will do all to destroy the disease that created Bin Laden and all those who share his ideology.
You can't just blame Muslims for all the wrong doings in the world, as Edip pointed out, We have to find the roots why? why? Muslims, even if they did, attacked twin towers? who is the occupier in Iraq and in Afghanistan? who gave the gift of dirty daizies to Afghans? and where are Weapons of mass destruction in Iraq? why do need to change the elected government of Algeria? why oppose Turkish recent government even though it is elected democratically?
So that is what i said before; a person with political motives cannot be fair with religon or could he be?
-
Salam,
Dr. Amina Wadud who is I guess an active member of your organization, correct me if I am wrong has following thoughts She claimed that she can decide which texts of the Qur'an are acceptable within the realm of "civilization" and which are not. For instance, she finds that the cutting off of the hand of a thief is not acceptable for a civilized person like her. This is the basic thought seen in almost all the articles and most of the Moderators thought. Therefore once decided the cutting of hand is not civilization she tries to use each and every translation which suites her idea, the same case is in head covering thread.
Your question is better suited to Dr. Amina. She is neither a member nor participant in this site to my knowledge.
For a Muslim, there can only be acceptance of Allah's word. There can't be any rejection as i posted in the previous thread.
Isn
t that the point I was making on the previous post? We either accept Gods teachingswe hear & obeyor we are hypocrates and liarswe hear & disobey.You can't just blame Muslims for all the wrong doings in the world, as Edip pointed out, We have to find the roots why? why? Muslims, even if they did, attacked twin towers? who is the occupier in Iraq and in Afghanistan? who gave the gift of dirty daizies to Afghans? and where are Weapons of mass destruction in Iraq? why do need to change the elected government of Algeria? why oppose Turkish recent government even though it is elected democratically?
So that is what i said before; a person with political motives cannot be fair with religon or could he be?
Rajah...I honestly don`t think you have read or even followed my threads or posts or even articles else you would not be asking me these strange questions!
-
Salaam Raj-ah
First of all, about headcover, it is a difference in understanding the quraan, not a rejection of it. I do not think anyone who discussed on the many threads of "khimaar" uttered the word "civilization" or even "practicability" of the headcover. I have lived at a time when headcover was not an issue at all. I was even a memeber of the muslim brotherhood, and headcover was not an issue either. I never wore a headcover (apart from our sari-like national dress) which is not accepted as headcover in Saudi Arabia then and in Sudan now! It became an issue after the influx of immigrants from Arab countries and the sub continent to SA multiplied in folds, bringing back to their countries many habits and ways of life from there.
As for Dr Wadud, I do not know your source. She has only one published book, (Quraan and Woman), which reflects her concern the position of women in the quraan. I translated this book and submitted the translation to Lazhar, with the original English. It was researched by the council of Islamic research, and they approved it. The method of the book, as she stated it, is to "read the quraan through the eys of the Author". The whole book is void of any comparison between civilizations or any understanding based on any civilization. The reader would not even know where she comes from (I personally thought she was Malaysian). Dr. Wadud was never known in Muslim circles in general and in Arab countries in particular, until she lead the prayers in New York, more than ten years after the publishing of her only book. I wonder if she would be concerned about cutting the hands of the thief, since this is not practiced in her country, The USA.
AND she wears the headscarf.A lot of baseless rumours are spread to tarnish her personality because of her stand about women in Islam. Nobody read her book, nobody knew she lead the prayers in South Africa ten years prior to the last one. She is not a person to appear on the media or to give speeches, except by Algezira after leading the prayers, and no scholar who questioned her was able to refute her knowledge about the matter. Later on, and for the first time, Lazhar admitted that women can lead countries.
-
Layth
Rajah...I honestly don`t think you have read or even followed my threads or posts or even articles else you would not be asking me these strange questions!
No, I have read you and I like you that is why I am here and discussing you; but at the same time I want to be clarified from a person who has increasing followers, I want to know about his thoughts regarding Islam, see it is not only me who has this observations, Edip and many others have the same observations; and if you cleared them up, at least I can have a clear picture of a person who is trying hard for Islam.
One last Question if you don't mind
Do you ever left Islam and became an atheist? What made you leave Islam? and why were you back to Islam with new energy, because during your leaving of Islam, you had some contacts with the people who hate Islam and then suddenly you were back in Islam this casts some doubts on your credibility?
The source for above is Walid Shoebat.
-
Samia
As for Dr Wadud, I do not know your source
Dr. Kaukab Siddique
Dr. W. made a deliberate attempt to divide Arabs from Africans. She took out her hair, showed it to her audience and claimed that her Arab audience did not respect her because she is a "black person" . This was a deliberate provocation which Bush and all the enemies of Islam would love.Samia
I wonder if she would be concerned about cutting the hands of the thief, since this is not practiced in her country, The USA.
Dr. Wadud
I chose that example to make my point about Qur??nic interpretation because I thought that it was an example that many people could agree with
it. Alas, when one looks at some of the comments posted on MWU, one realizes that, in fact, many Muslims believe that it is inappropriate to say ?no? to certain ?problematic? articulations of the Qur??n. They claim that it is inappropriate even though the principles behind such Qur??nic verses might have been given a certain form relative to the context in which the Qur??n was being revealed in seventh century Arabia, where a particular kind of punishment was customarily used to punish thieves. We now have other ways to punish thieves. We now also have other understandings and perspectives about the treatment of women to how women were customarily treated in seventh century Arabia.
I am proud to say that I believe in Allah, that I believe in the words of Allah and that I believe in the example of the Prophet (s).Dr. Amina's words as quoted below
"As for "no" to the Qur'an, let me summarize the work I have been doing to overcome some of the apologia of Qur'an and Woman. Yes, the Qur'an I believe and love is considered a form of Allah's self disclosure, but I do not believe God is locked into the 7th century Arabian context with its limitations based on coherency in that context, including Arabic to have a universal underpinning of TRUTH, justice and love.
I accept every word as sent by revelation from Allah to the Holy Prophet whose own example embodied and demonstrated those underpinning universal (he never literally beat any of his wives, for example). When I say "no" it is not the integrity of the literal text, it is to the implementation of some practices which is a 14 centuries long debate. That is why the jurist "set conditions upon" things like "beating" and "cutting". I consider that an interpretive intervention. Other interpretive interventions, like Qur'an and woman encourage the polysemic nature of reading and understanding and offer egalitarian interpretations against patriarchal ones, with no ONE having the final word. That belongs only to Allah and Allahu A'lam. But now I wish to point more directly that anything other than literal reading is a demonstration of agency to Allah, working in concert with the text, as words and intent to sustain the underlying principles and values, such that today, the Qur'anic approval of Slavery, for example IS NOT IMPLEMENTED. I wish to state my acceptance of certain problematic moral practices but with out and out refusal to implement them. AND to stop lying to make other people feel comfortable, I say so
After reading her own words I think you will not call it baseless rumors.
-
Raj-ah
I really don't see how you understand this as "She claimed that she can decide which texts of the Qur'an are acceptable within the realm of "civilization" and which are not". What she is saying is clearly a criticism of holding as divine the interpretation of the quran by people who live in the seventh century. Who does not agree?
-
Samia
First of all, about headcover, it is a difference in understanding the quraan, not a rejection of it
How can be their difference of understanding in Quran in this particular verse, unless and until you deliberately want to change it.
The word used for 'head covering' in this ayat is 'Khumr'. In Arabic this word is specifically and only used for the head covering cloth, you should now this better then me. If God did not mean to direct towards the observance of head covering, usage of such a word seems unnecessary and a cause for confusion, charateristics that the word of God certainly do not possess.
The fact that this word is used and no other is in itself a pointer towards head covering.
Now my stance on this is that it was clear cut order by Allah for the women of that time and by studying the history and culture this confirms, but since it was for a particular time as there are many other ayats as pointed out by me from time to time, we must by Ijtihad allow ourselves to decide it what is modest dress for ourselves within the frame work of Quran."End of the story" as sweet Majidah states.
-
Peace,
No, I have read you and I like you that is why I am here and discussing you; but at the same time I want to be clarified from a person who has increasing followers, I want to know about his thoughts regarding Islam, see it is not only me who has this observations, Edip and many others have the same observations; and if you cleared them up, at least I can have a clear picture of a person who is trying hard for Islam.
What clarifications are you looking for? Be specific and I will try my best to answer.
One last Question if you don't mind
Do you ever left Islam and became an atheist? What made you leave Islam? and why were you back to Islam with new energy, because during your leaving of Islam, you had some contacts with the people who hate Islam and then suddenly you were back in Islam this casts some doubts on your credibility?
The source for above is Walid Shoebat.
No. Since I have found the path of God Alone I have never left it nor would I trade this path for any other - You Alone we serve and You Alone we seek for help!
-
Peace.
Perhaps the question the person was trying to ask Layth was when he left, "sunnism" did he ever become an atheist or any other religion before he entered into the Quran Alone (islam).
Or..was there a period of time between the time Layth left Sunnism and entered into the Quran alone stance (islam)?
I would also be interested in knowing what people did Layth associate with that this brother is claiming. Does he have the actual source that we could see to verify this information or invalidate it.
Apprecaite it.
Sakina
-
No, I have read you and I like you that is why I am here and discussing you; but at the same time I want to be clarified from a person who has increasing followers,
Raj-ah,
Who has increasing (numbers of) followers? I'm sorry, but is there a leader with followers here? I thought people here were trying to think for themselves, and not act as obedient desciples to someone. I hope people here try to follow guidance, sense, goodness and their hearts in pursuit of truth, not some human authority. -
Raj-ah,
Who has increasing (numbers of) followers? I'm sorry, but is there a leader with followers here? I thought people here were trying to think for themselves, and not act as obedient desciples to someone. I hope people here try to follow guidance, sense, goodness and their hearts in pursuit of truth, not some human authority.I am the real Layth, the other Layth is a decoy.
-
I am the real Layth, the other Layth is a decoy.
I am not going to discuss this veil issue with you. You will not put it on my head and I will not lift it off your eyes, so why bother?
End of story.http//i73.photobucket.com/albums/i231/nabpeace/gif%20files/LOL_Hair.gifhttp//i73.photobucket.com/albums/i231/nabpeace/gif%20files/lmfao.gif
peace
-
Samia
How can be their difference of understanding in Quran in this particular verse, unless and until you deliberately want to change it.The word used for 'head covering' in this ayat is 'Khumr'. In Arabic this word is specifically and only used for the head covering cloth, you should now this better then me. If God did not mean to direct towards the observance of head covering, usage of such a word seems unnecessary and a cause for confusion, charateristics that the word of God certainly do not possess.
The fact that this word is used and no other is in itself a pointer towards head covering.rotfl rotfl rotfl
-
Layth
What clarifications are you looking for? Be specific and I will try my best to answer.
Dear may be my english is causing some confusions and you are not getting my point, Ok let me try once again.
Edip has accused Kamal Nawash and his organization for having some hidden motives and which are against Islam, After studying and knowing about Kamal Nawash I see many similarities between your organization and his, for example changing the meaning of Quran or rather translating english words for arabic words which are according to moderen day scenario because you live in society which does not accept old translation of Quran; forgetting that Quran was revealed 1400 years ago. Kamal is highlighted by the westeren media favourably and so is your orgnizaition. Edip was once traditionalist Muslim and had no say in westeren world but now the world has changed for him after and that also seems true for some old Saudi.His and I guess your combined effort of translating Quran in a new way has gained praise from Irshad Menji and Amina Wadud , this says it all.
In quest for truth you seem to be going to far away, as is our friend Ayman; who has changed the Kaaba without Allah's consent. In order to please Jews and Christians and others we are going so far away from the original, we have forget what Allah said in Quran
Quran
O you who believe, do not take Jews and Christians as allies; these are allies of one another. Those among you who ally themselves with these belong with them. GOD does not guide the transgressorsDespite this all I still like you, You have brought forward some very excellent points and provided Muslims with such a Platform where one can discuss what, in other Muslims forums is neverthought of.
Layth
No. Since I have found the path of God Alone I have never left it nor would I trade this path for any other - You Alone we serve and You Alone we seek for help!
How did you find the path of God Alone, after settling in USA? Why most of the well wishers of Islam are discarded in their own countries, they even have to hide their identities and they are residing in Europe and USA? this is strange very strange
Edip, You, Kamal, Irshad, Rushdie, Tasleema a long list, i am just curious, how can I differentiate you from the rest I REALLY WANT TO. -
In quest for truth you seem to be going to far away, as is our friend Ayman; who has changed the Kaaba without Allah's consent. In order to please Jews and Christians and others we are going so far away from the original, we have forget what Allah said in Quran
Quran
O you who believe, do not take Jews and Christians as allies; these are allies of one another. Those among you who ally themselves with these belong with them. GOD does not guide the transgressorsSalaam,
The arguments that Ayman puts forward with the archeological evidence regarding the Kaaba are convincing enough but we need to do more research.
From the Qur?an I understand that the ?sanctuary? fits with Jerusalem, but for Jews this is very bad news, as they justify their right to the Dome of the rock on the basis that it is not mentioned in the Quran. If anything Jews and Christians are certainly not happy that we consider the DOR as our Kaaba.
One thing that bothers me a lot is why Allah (swt) would have allowed the corrupt Saudis to be the custodians of the Kaaba and a good portion of what many spend on Hajj goes to US today to pay back loans, taken by the Saudis to protect them from Sadaam Husain during the first Gulf war.
United states along with the Saudi Royals make sure that any war offensive starts after the tourist season(hajj) so they have their funds secured from the revenue received by the haji tourists. As you can see fresh news of skirmishes with Iran are now hyped up, so always look for a sign of war after the hajj.peace
