Science Defied
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Peace "amin",
Once I took a drink from a can of Sprite soda but for some reason before i drank it I had convinced myself that it was root beer. I mean for a split second I actually believed that root beer was the flavor that I had in my hand. When I took the drink it actually tasted like root beer. Then when I realized that it was sprite, the flavor suddenly changed back to Sprite. Very interesting.
Peace
JK- Well there you have it then. You just got the explanation confirmed by your own experience. GOD Bless!
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In my personal experience there is probably a difference between those with 'clinical' types of hallucinations and those seeing real matter or tapping in to some other realm. The reveleation of the Quran itself through Muhammed would stand testiment to that possibility of tapping in to other realms or some people being bearing more ability for it than others. When somebody has a sensory experience it is really in ignorance and arrogance that we try to reduce and water it down so that it fits with our own experiences - when in fact the experiences of others may be outside the remit of our own experineces. Just becuase we have not expereinced it - we try to rationalise it. What they have experienced is real - how can you interpret that without even detailed proof from the Quran?
The Quran mentions seeking protection in God and it describes satan as a force - an entity - it mentions about satan throughout and the way of the satan to distract from the truth through deception. Does it detail about clinical hallucinations? No - instead when we look at the medical model and take it to peices we see how it is flawed with perversion of truths. Medicine is just another man-made religion in disguise.
As I said before - the problem with all this is - we get in to a debate about trying to understand everything through conjecture/ on human terms - whereas there may be more besides man-made explanations. God has said in the Quran that not everything will be within our understanding and he will not reveal everything to us as we may become scared of it. You will be able to find this verse somewhere if you look it up.
The paranormal experiences I experienced went away when I at once started to pray deeply to God and then heard the messages given to me to follow one God alone. It was only personal experience that made me beleive. It is the one moment in which the relaisations of everything becamse unified. When I stopped practicing the satanic methods and instead put my faith in God alone - the paranormal experiences went away.
So now - the reason why I turn to God alone - is because I have come to personally know it is the truth from the start and is the way we are suppose to live.
The reason I additiaonally turn to the Quran is because - of my experience that staying with nature and God's original design of human nature in this day and age is not enough as satan is a force building and increasing it's momentum to try to possess the soul literally - to take you over to the other side - by deceit then by programming your mind so that you do not know the truth anymore - you just become it's slave. This is the clear example that I have understood as to what has happened with Adam also happened with me when I was enticed to the dark side by the prospects of becomeing the owner of my own life and thinking that I knew how to save people.. The plan of satan is to take you to the place that suddenly you might see yourself shamed by what you allowed yourself to do - if indeed your consciousness and God's blessings allows one to experience that whilst still on earth. The Quran therefore came as a sure blessing - a counter programming tool - to work agianst satans' plans for people who may have lost their way - to bring them closer to the the truht adn as a way of maintaiining that bond.
About the soap aspect I was actually reponding to the silly joke presented by 'someone' and retaliating to it with another joke to illustrate that it was indeed a silly joke! I am sorry for doing that as obviuously it has instead been taken seriously.
You can even take that as an example of how fallible we can be in intellect...... if you may. sun
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Peace "humandesign",
In my personal experience there is probably a difference between those with 'clinical' types of hallucinations and those seeing real matter or tapping in to some other realm. The reveleation of the Quran itself through Muhammed would stand testiment to that possibility of tapping in to other realms or some people being bearing more ability for it than others. When somebody has a sensory experience it is really in ignorance and arrogance that we try to reduce and water it down so that it fits with our own experiences - when in fact the experiences of others may be outside the remit of our own experineces. Just becuase we have not expereinced it - we try to rationalise it. What they have experienced is real - how can you interpret that without even detailed proof from the Quran?
JK- Theres no evidence of this "tapping into another realm" even in regards to the Quran. The Quran formed naturally through the various surroundings and the pattern recognition ability given to Muhammad's brain. Thats most likely how he got GOD's messages and not through some interdimensional voodoo stuff. AND THIS UNIVERSE AND ITS CONENTS CARRY INFO AND THEY ARE VERY REAL. GOD reveals them to whom He pleases at appropriate times via natural evoltuionary processes.
The Quran mentions seeking protection in God and it describes satan as a force - an entity - it mentions about satan throughout and the way of the satan to distract from the truth through deception. Does it detail about clinical hallucinations? No - instead when we look at the medical model and take it to peices we see how it is flawed with perversion of truths. Medicine is just another man-made religion in disguise.
JK- Man you really need to read bro Arnold's articles. The word "shaitaan" comes from the root "shtn" meaning "cut off/irrational/rebellious". Shaitaan is within everyone one of us and is not some mythical creature. You really need to quit these sectarian biased translations for good.
As I said before - the problem with all this is - we get in to a debate about trying to understand everything through conjecture/ on human terms - whereas there may be more besides man-made explanations. God has said in the Quran that not everything will be within our understanding and he will not reveal everything to us as we may become scared of it. You will be able to find this verse somewhere if you look it up.
JK- YES He reveals AT THE APPROPRIATE TIMES. Much of the details of the universe are not known BUT THEY ARE ALL NATURAL. GOD Himself says in the Quran that He does NOT violate His laws. Dont you understand this? Everything passes through evolutionary processes and gets revealed at the appropriate times NATURALLY.
The paranormal experiences I experienced went away when I at once started to pray deeply to God and then heard the messages given to me to follow one God alone. It was only personal experience that made me beleive. It is the one moment in which the relaisations of everything becamse unified. When I stopped practicing the satanic methods and instead put my faith in God alone - the paranormal experiences went away.
JK- Im sure there are perfect naturalistic explanations for what you experienced and yes those can be due to your own rebellious nature(shaitann) inside your neural network NOT some supernatural fantasy. Thats the whole point.
So now - the reason why I turn to God alone - is because I have come to personally know it is the truth from the start and is the way we are suppose to live.
JK- OK but this happened NATURALLY. GOD guides through His System which NEVER CHANGES.
The reason I additiaonally turn to the Quran is because - of my experience that staying with nature and God's original design of human nature in this day and age is not enough as satan is a force building and increasing it's momentum to try to possess the soul literally - to take you over to the other side - by deceit then by programming your mind so that you do not know the truth anymore - you just become it's slave. This is the clear example that I have understood as to what has happened with Adam also happened with me when I was enticed to the dark side by the prospects of becomeing the owner of my own life and thinking that I knew how to save people.. The plan of satan is to take you to the place that suddenly you might see yourself shamed by what you allowed yourself to do - if indeed your consciousness and God's blessings allows one to experience that whilst still on earth. The Quran therefore came as a sure blessing - a counter programming tool - to work agianst satans' plans for people who may have lost their way - to bring them closer to the the truht adn as a way of maintaiining that bond.
JK- Same point it all happens naturally one is the experience inside your brain whilst your rebellious nature took over and the other was the rational which by the Will of GOD then dominated but aparently your backsliding by asserting the supernatural now. GOD Bless!
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Dear Jonny_K
We are really getting in to semantics - you seem to want to put a definition on exactly how those experiences came about - I DON'T KNOW THE DETAILs. this is the crux of what I am trying to say - not to say for sure that I know about teh process that happend - ONLY THAT I KNOW IT WAS NATURAL - WE ARE IN AGREEMENT WITH THAT. When did I say that it is voodoo or magical or even supernatural??? - I am just trying to explain that the experiences are possible naturally without the person being reduced to being a person less than normal.
Didn't I say possibility of tapping in to other realms or some people being bearing more ability for it than others?????
What you are saying seems to be generally in agreement with me. But the way you argue with me - appears as if you may be trying to twist what I have said so to try to discredit me - so that you can hold up your fixed ideas to the rest of the world??
Whats the differnence between tapping in to another realm and managing to pattern recognise? I don't see any conflict - All I'm just trying to say is that such beyond normal experiences do happen - when someone is saying that they have had an experience - there is no need for peopel to say that - it's nothing but your system not working properly. Thats just plain arrogance.
Any way let me ask you if you really do want to diffentiate between us - how exactly does one pattern recognise and download such precise material - are you saying Muhammed entered something like the matrix and saw all these flying bits of information and managed to suss it all out and put it together in to a coherent scripture of which there be no doubt???
Lets agree to disagree about the consituency of satan. You think it is all as the modern psychological theories would have you believe. Maybe 6 months ago I would have agreed with you. But now I don't discount both as a possibility. Man you need to really plunge yourself with the dark matters more and find out the truth for yourself instead of turning to Arnold for what his brain is worth. hail
JK- Im sure there are perfect naturalistic explanations for what you experienced and yes those can be due to your own rebellious nature(shaitann) inside your neural network NOT some supernatural fantasy. Thats the whole point.
Your supeior attitude about what is likely to have happened or has not happened really stinks. You have no idea as to why the stuff happend other than the indications that I alone can know - that I have given - yet you try to spin it as if there is somehting wrong with me rather than the practices I was engaged in.
You really want to make me stop wasting my time here and leave this forum lest I be swayed by what appears to be an approach of truth mixed with falsehood - such that I may be steereed away in to conjecture.
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peace all,
about the smell incident, it could be a gallbladder issue.
i kept smelling something that was just bad, closest description i can give is it smelled like nasty fried rotten mushrooms, my wife couldn't smell it also my father who has a great sense of smell couldn't smell it. they thought i was crazy. it came to me when i was soooo hungry after i made steaks ( my favorite mmmmmm) i couldn't eat it my wife did though telling me theres no smell, i had this awful smell which no one else smelled for 2 days. later my wife found out and tolled me imagining smells is common after a Gall bladder surgery (which i just had like 5-6 days before).
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Salaam,
Divine inspiration and/or experience is part of human experience. This is what Johnny K and Arnold cant except. Every prophet received truth through this method. Direct wisdom passed from God to human. It's physical form is the book it was compiled into. Yes human mind and reason can also direct us to truth but the mind is not the be all end all of it. I have showed in my post in Jinns and The Paranormal (http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13858.30) that our mind and reason is ONLY a physical trait. Or it is a tool which God created for us to use in this world, not the next. In other words the mind, reason and all it's capacities are finite and die with the body. Though the mind can, through reason and deduction, realize truth, it can never fully understand it. This is because God is truth and God is infinite and absolute while the mind is finite, limited and will die. Those who place the mind on such a pedestal are in danger of committing shirk with human reason as their idol of worship. In fact, true submission to our creator Allah can not come about until the mind gives way and allows for the true conscious personality of man to receive from God. That is the spirit or roh. Johnny K and Arnold do not taker heed of the spirit. It is the spirit which is the true personality of man and transcends death while the mind lay dead and buried. Life does not exist solely in mind but rather in spirit.
Peace
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Salam Amin,
I like what you said, though I would differ with you slightly.
I would say that the spirit is a higher conciousness that allows us to transend the physical and receive the guidance.
However, it is the soul that passes on to the judgement, while the spirit most likely is returned to its Maker.
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Dear Amin74,
Good reply as to the spirit and soul aspect - it's what some of us others have been trying to also communicate - that the mind is limited by itself alone when it tries to reason away matters that it has no experience of - there is much more than each of us may know have come to evolve. One person's experience may be outside the remit of the mind/experiences of another simply because evolutionary developments being reached differently between people or even depending on God's will and abilities.
It's good you are finding evidence in the Quran to explain, whereas I myself found experience and reflection to give me the conviction.
Well done.
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Divine inspiration and/or experience is part of human experience. This is what Johnny K and Arnold cant except. Johnny K and Arnold do not taker heed of the spirit.
Peace Amin,
Please be careful with your judgements on what I do or do not heed as you have only read and understood a small portions on my thoughts and thinking and my present conclusions. As for Ruh, it has many meanings inside the Quran based on its Arabic root and Quranic context and I am always open for any understanding but I have certain rules which I follow on what I accept and reject.
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Dear Arnold,
Can a human being whilst living on earth who has never seen the Quran and never heard of it still be in tune with God and be living in harmony with His laws, submitting, doing good works and also without having been educated to be in that way?
Have in fact 'good submitters' existed before the Quran was revealed ?
My answer is yes - it is possible because a person may just have a natural sense of right and wrong and aswell and a tendency to not disobey the natural laws and ability to receive guidance from God through natural means. Didn't God originally design humans to be able to live by His wisdom without the Quran? The person's spirit/essence/soul/nafs - whatever you want ot cal lit is what is responsible for all of that.
But your posts (as far as I am aware of the recent ones) indicate that you do not think it possible for a human to live by a natural instinct alone without reliance on the Quran.
I feel that those of you inclined with such an approach are in effect worshipping the book itself (Quran) that is limited by the readers intellect and present state of consciousness rather than worshipping God who is with us at all times and who may be trying to teach us via deriving meaning through natural circumstances.....Both are a means to salvation but they may not be limted to just themselves.
The Quran is a blessing both for acting as warning and as a bringer of good tidings to those already inclined in righteous ways. Personally for me - it was the Quran itself that made me beleive more in myself than ever before (and it only confirmed what I knew had already been wrong about me - which I knew about before I had turned to the Quran)
I can bring a typical Muslim to account by citing the appropraite verses in the Quran - but how do you bring a typically non-muslim to account using the Quran - you can't - same as the Jehevah's witnesses can not bring me to account by citing their Biblical verses. But you can try to bring a non-Muslim to account by speaking truths and practical wisdom that does not need to rely on scriptures - the truth itself is the means.
All of this truth and wisdom is accounted for in the Quran - but is not limited to it - you can gain inspiration from it according to your levels of consciousness - but such real inspiration is not limited to the Quran only. We can gain it from expereince or from God's divine will.
And remember it says in the Quran that those who remember God all throughout the day are better than those doing their salat. Therefore it is likely that submitters exist outsdie the realm of thsoe seeking to understand the Quran.
Are you being judged in a way that you do not wish to be judged because you have left room for discrepancies or because some of us have just misunderstood you? If the latter your best bet is simply to bring us to understanding through citing truth rather than simply highlighting the perceived injustice.
I await to understand you better in respect of your holding integrity in your understanding. Otherwise take heed in God's plan for teaching mankind...if you will.
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Peace,
I have answered most of your questions in my posts, so I suggest looking them up.
A person can only be held responsible for that which he knows and has understood. This is why Kafir can only be used for those that have understood the Quranic message and are oppossed to it.
I agree a person can live righteous without the Quran, I never doubted this. What I do believe is that mankind cannot create a good structure for society on their own. History and present have proven this. The concepts of right and wrong and morality are still vague and not always concrete in a society, this is where the Quran kicks in. And for previous nations, this is where their revelations kicked.
The Quran is about society, not individuals directly. This is why it mostly talks in the plural and not the singular.
I can reccommend this book that discusses the philosophy on if nations can sustain itself with or without Revelation, then you will understood my train of thought better
http//www.tolueislam.com/Parwez/ICR/ICR.htm
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Thanks - but I think I may have come accross that link before - though I will try to go through it again.
I guess that's how the shariah came about - man trying to interpret the Quran and laying down a structure on society.
Also if structured society means that my understanding and experiences of God-consciousness has to replaced by someone elses who may not have the same level of appreciation (which is likely to happen when we have people at different levels of evolution) - then I simply will want to run a hundred miles away from that society.
I guess where we might differ is that I am not looking to create any social structure - I am just wanting to know how perhaps to live my life in the rightly guided way for myself - and part of such revelations might be that as far as right conduct is concerned - I don't think we can impose on people - we can only invite them to the right way - the rest is up to God.
I prefer to use the Quran to gain inspiration on an individual level rather looking in it for the purpose of establishing political/social rules. I don't think you mean that the Quran was meant for society alone - do you?? If the Quran was meant for society alone - then 1. I as an individual should not look in to it for inspiration and 2. certainly shows us how it has been redundant all this time - as we have not been in concensus to be able to follow it as a society - and even there is no knowing for how long that would continue
Anyhow - my main approach remains to draw on the Quran for personal inspiration and therafter highlighlighting of it's truths to my 'muslim' family (truths that are standing against the established sunnat).
I can only engage my life with 'non-Muslim society by living my own life in the right way and with truth - i.e exposing the man on the street when he wronged me by falsifying my statements that I made to him as opposed to dragging him over to the Quran to the place where it says one should not lie.
sun sun sun sun
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Salaam HD and Arnold,
I just wanted to say that I am very happy to have had the chance to discuss these issues with you. I enjoy the many things both of you have said on these boards. It seems Allah may have answered my prayers when I asked to be able to discuss these things with like minded people. People like you as well as Khidir have really been a blessing for me. And HD if you haven't checked Khidir's web site yet, I highly recommend you do. This is the link http//www.freewebs.com/tawhiyd/index.htm
He has some great stuff on there. It really inspired me to start exploring these issues more.
Peace my brothers
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Dear Amin74,
Yes I enjoy learning too!!!
I just came accross something on that link you gave which is also suggestive of what I am talking about - concerning presenting the truth as opposed to just Quranic references and not ordaining matters on people
Qur?aan 16125
You shall invite to the path of your Lord with wisdom and kind enlightenment, and DEBATE with them in the best possible manner. Your Lord knows best who has strayed from His path, and He knows best who are the guided ones.
And there in no compulsion in religion
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Sorry no compulsion in religion would relate to Qur?aan 2256
There shall be no compulsion in religion the right way is no distinguished from the wrong way. Thus, anyone who denounces the devil and believes in Allah, has gotten hold of the strongest bond that never breaks. Allah is Hearer, Omniscient.
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Wow - yes Khidr also says this
When you become part of a sect, your cognitive abilities and intellectual creativity becomes stunted. Thus, then, you become locked into an empty void of nothingness. You will never be able to see the light until you step out of the realm of your sectarian school of thought or sect and question it. Until then you will not see.
This is also what I was trying to highlight because it was evident on this forum how some people's truths/signs were being rejected simply because it did not fit with their existing paradigm of established rules that they had been brought in to.
That's the major flaw with trying to establish a religious/social structure as though all the answers for humanity have been received - whereas in truth we are continously evolving and gaining higher meaning as to the truth - even Arnold admits that the revelations contained within the Quran are still coming to us.....
Let there be no compulsion in our beleifs and ways of living bravo
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Peace "humandesign",
Didn't I say possibility of tapping in to other realms or some people being bearing more ability for it than othersHuh???
JK- Theres no evidence or at least i havnt seen any to support that anyone has the ability to tap into other realms/dimensions with his mind. That was exactly my point. GOD Bless!
