doubting Quran
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3336, 491 among others.
and look at 528! at Abel's example to his brother. why then, couldn't or didn't the early Muslims follow this example, and why is this "turning of the other cheek" not upheld as a universal rule elsewhere?
and 9111 says that the Injeel encouraged those who followed it to slay, whereas Jesus never said such a thing. and why are all other Biblical examples of others rising up to kill condemned in the strongest language, whereas Muhammed and his followers are given God's blessings to do so?
Salaam Ayani
If you remember the Quran also asks why do you say what you do not do and condemns hypocricy. God allows us to take revenge whilst encouraging us to forgive as its the better option, whereas christian priests have talked of the turning of the other cheek at the same time sending their followers on killing sprees around the world in the name of God, be it crusades, spanish inquisitation or the current wars in Afganistan and Iraq where innocent civilians are mercilessly killed.
Killing is only allowed in war between the warring parties according to the Quran, and this is what armies do everywhere. However the killing of innocents using pilotless planes and targeted assassinations is regular practice of those so called civilised world who are suppose to beleive in "turning of the other cheek" and who claim that Islam advocates terror.peace
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you are right.... sister, thank you. i'm also recalling 2216, saying that "you may not like it, but sometimes you have to...". as i re-read those few verses about fighting and killing, i'm seeing that, yes, it's about defense and fighting oppression. with God's help. i'm thinking of the uprising in the Warsaw Ghetto, the rebellion of Native Americans against invading, murderous settles, such things.
jazak Allah, sister Farida. may God help us to understand, and guide us.
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Salam Ayani,
Brother Idolfree1 (Kyle) used to say that the word "Al Rasool"= The Messenger, refers to the Quran and not to prophet Muhammad. I disagreed with him then (more than a year ago). Recently, I saw that his thinking made sense to me in some of the ayat though and not all. So when you read "Obey Allah and obey al rasool" I would think that the word al rasool must only fit the Quran and not prophet Muhammad.
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peace Taj, all,
As a general note...
When a term such as "messenger" is used it primarily refers to role, i.e. a person can only be a messenger when they have a message. Who the actual person is is not as important, because they are defined by them having a message (in this case, The Quran).
If we remove our traditional baggage and emotion, we can easily show this with an example
At a swimming pool or beach, if there is a sign that says "Please obey the lifeguard at all times." then it is directly referring to the person's role as a lifeguard and nothing else. Let's say the lifeguard's name happened to be Fred, imagine the difference in meaning if the sign said "Obey Fred at all times". We can all see that this is a totally different message! It is no coincidence that every swimming pool or beach in the entire world* does not use a sign that refers to the person's name rather than their role, as they know it would be nonsense.
- none that I have seen or heard of at least.
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Peace ayani, all -- btw great analogy above Wakas.
yet i felt blessed and thankful when making salah, when reciting al-fatiha. when reading the Quran, answers would come to clear questions i'd had. God showed me what i was looking for within or through the Quran, yet God is not only in the Quran.
Yes, whenever a supposed contradiction arouse to test my faith (inheritance verses especially were difficult and had to resolve) the meaning was made clear by a particular verse or thought or even a random turning of the page, the answer was there every time.
Below turned up on one such occasion?
Surah 28 al-Qasas - The Story, Stories, The Narrative
And you were not expecting that the Book (this Qur'?n) would be sent down to you, but it is a mercy from your Lord. So never be a supporter of the disbelievers. (86) And let them not turn you away from the Ay?t of All?h after they have been sent down to you and invite to your Lord, and be not of Al-Mushrik?n. (87) And invoke not any other il?h (god) along with All?h, L? il?ha illa Huwa. Everything will perish save His Face. His is the Decision, and to Him you (all) shall be returned. (8Turn to any page, answers for believers every time -- the miracle of the Qur'an!
peace
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3336, 491 among others.
and look at 528! at Abel's example to his brother. why then, couldn't or didn't the early Muslims follow this example, and why is this "turning of the other cheek" not upheld as a universal rule elsewhere?
and 9111 says that the Injeel encouraged those who followed it to slay, whereas Jesus never said such a thing. and why are all other Biblical examples of others rising up to kill condemned in the strongest language, whereas Muhammed and his followers are given God's blessings to do so?
It's because each of the 5 key Prophets bring a different culture to humanity, and represent a different stage of a human life.
Adam represents a child who has just been born, in the earliest years of his life. Abraham represents an early teenager, learning to behave himself, hence the story of God ordering Abraham to sacrifice his only Son is about obedience to the will of God. Moses represents a human being in their late teens, early 20s, who is beginning to understand the world. This is what the parting of the waters represents - when Moses parts the Red Sea, this is the separation of Good and Evil. So whilst Abraham only obeyed, Moses was really able to understand the reason why.
Jesus represents a person in their late 20s, early thirties. Jesus didn't just part the waters - he walked over them. In this case the ocean represents the feelings. Hence Jesus was really able to rise above his feelings, just as a person in their early 30s must be able to control how they feel and respect others.
Muhammad represents finally becoming a real Adult, a person approaching the age of 40. Muhammad's message is one of responsibility, as by this age a person should have a family, other people to care for. This is why the Quran isn't about Pacifism. Jesus' message was one of pacifism as Jesus' age was that of someone getting married, when the most important thing is to make peace with your partner. Muhammad represent a fully grown Man, who must be ready to fight to look after and stand up for his family.
My acknowledgments to Bapak Muhammad Subuh, who's explanations of the stages of life represented by 5 Prophets I've cribbed here. They can be found summarised by John Bennett in his book, 'Concerning Subud'.
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I wonder, can a person be Muslim and follow the example of Jesus instead of Mohammad?
Peace,
God has made mention of many "good examples".
They are mentioned in the Quran. We have cited for the people every kind of example in this Quran, that they may take heed.
4359 - Jesus was a good example
604 - Abraham was a good example
606 - Those who seek God and the last day are a good exampleIn short, all true believers are a good example.
God bless,
dotty
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And all good examples are true believers.
Zing!
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Salam Wakas,
peace Taj, all,
As a general note...
When a term such as "messenger" is used it primarily refers to role, i.e. a person can only be a messenger when they have a message. Who the actual person is is not as important, because they are defined by them having a message (in this case, The Quran).If we remove our traditional baggage and emotion, we can easily show this with an example
At a swimming pool or beach, if there is a sign that says "Please obey the lifeguard at all times." then it is directly referring to the person's role as a lifeguard and nothing else. Let's say the lifeguard's name happened to be Fred, imagine the difference in meaning if the sign said "Obey Fred at all times". We can all see that this is a totally different message! It is no coincidence that every swimming pool or beach in the entire world* does not use a sign that refers to the person's name rather than their role, as they know it would be nonsense.
- none that I have seen or heard of at least.
I know what you mean for that was my initial position and my argument with Kyle. But it did not solve the problem. In terms of obeying, Allah gives the same weight to Him and to His messenger. Muhammad, Easa and all the classic messengers are long dead. The messenger that God wants us to obey, at all times, cannot die. The messenger has to be the Quran that when I obey I would be obeying God as both would be saying the same thing.
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I take the word "messenger"" referring to anyone that preaches the truth about God and His commands...
That is why i think it is important to consider all message carefully before we judge someone or the msges... because they might be the messenger for that particular moment...
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Peace
Jibreel is the one I know of, and no other. Not sure what you mean about disguising.
Regarding the human messenger his role is manifold and therefore you will have other factors to look at to be clear about the messenger's constitution. This one should explain, teach, and practice what he preaches.
Joe
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brothers and sisters ~
these past few days i have had a lot of doubt. as to faith, God, the Quran, religious truth...
Me too - and the conclusion I came to?
ALL religions are man made - NOT from God.
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ALL religions are man made - NOT from God.
I agree... yes
If we see this universe we see great wisdom of the creator but do we find the same great wisdom in any religion? nope
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The God promotes way of life rather than religion in the Quran so yes religion in the loose sense of the word is man made.
The quran describes a way of life rather than a religion from my reading of it.
PEACE
actually, this is what i am coming to understand, too. masha'allah. peace the Quran says so many wonderfully true things about God, and the attributes it lists are beautiful, diverse, and comprehensive. the Quran is a guide, a beautiful guide to be read, studied, considered, and learned from. yet it is not God, nor is it God embodied. Isalm (surrender to God) is a way of life, sirat al-mustaqim.
we can't simply internalize an abstract formula or mantra, we have to live in order to learn, and in order to walk the paths of peace He shows us to. alhamdulillah.
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Peace CD,
ALL religions are man made - NOT from God.
Exactly. All religions (millat) are manmade and without humans there would be no such thing as a religion. This is why there is no such thing as the religion of God and even monotheism is described in the great reading as the religion of Abaraham (millat Ibrahim). On the other hand, peacemaking (islam) is a universal obligation. It is our only true obligation to the god.
Peace,
Ayman
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Are you an athiest or a deist, cosmic?
I do believe in God - but not any religion.
