Common problems associated with the "salat" issue
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Salaam Bubbles,
The verses containing the English translations of "bow" (raki) and "prostrate" (sujud) are commonly cited, but going by AQ the word "sujud" does not mean "prostrate" (e.g. 124, 4154, 25. Similarly, according to AQ there is no clear occurrence of "raki" meaning "bow". The only possibility would be 3824 but in this occurrence it is used along with "kharra" which means fall down which seems redundant to add this, and according to you, these is no need for such repetition )
Please review all the occurrences for "sujud" and "raki" for yourself
http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm4102 was discussed by me here, for further info
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=10279.0 -
Here are the same verses and they reasure me that Salat is not prayer
Shabbir Ahmed 2125
Remember, We appointed the House a means to achieve unity among all mankind, and thus, a source of peace and security. So, attain the stature of Abraham recalling his firm stand for closely following the Divine Commands. We did take a Covenant from Abraham and Ishmael, ?Keep My House clean of all falsehood for those who rally around it and those who strive hard for the noble objective and those who submit in humility to the Divine Commands.?Shabbir Ahmed 4102
When you (O Messenger) are with them leading the forces, let some of them stand with you and use their arms. Then, after they have done their duty, let them fall to the rear and let another party come and carry out the commands. Let them take precautions and their arms. The disbelievers want you to neglect your arms and other belongings so that they may attack you once and for all. There is no harm for you to strategically lay aside your arms if rain impedes you or if you are exhausted. But take all possible precaution. God has prepared for those who oppose the truth, a humiliating chastisement.I've had a glimpse at many of Shabbir's translations and he just comes off as rather deluded. His translations are so off the wall and reduce the Arabic language to incomprehensible babble. I take some of the non-Muslim translators more seriously than him to be honest.
As we can see in the verses of the Quran i have shown you above, the words bow, prostration or worship does not exist in them. The reason the words bow, prostate and worship contains in the verses you have showed in your post, is because you are using an old translation. Many old translations are influenced by christian teachings, and they don't translate the Quran using its original language the (Quraish dialect). The usage of Quraish dialect to translate the Quran have been backed up by History, and by Quranic verses (1997, 445
What is this history of which you speak? How do you know what the Quraish dialect was like? As far as I'm aware those "old" translations were done from the Arabic of Muhammed's people at his time. The Quraish people believed that sujud meant prostration, hence that is the correct meaning of the word.
This is verse 1997, "So We have only made it easy in your tongue that you may give good news thereby to those who guard (against evil) and warn thereby a vehemently contentious people."
If it was easy and in the language of the Quraish then they should have had no trouble understanding that sujud wasn't protration and that it was something different, alas they didn't understand the 'true' meaning therefore the Quran wasn't easy to understand, which would be a failure on God's part and the Arabs are not to blame.So, have you considered to use a more new translation instead of Pikthal's 70 year old translation? As the nature change, animal kingdom and Humans change, the interpretation and translations of Quran must also change. If the old interpretations and translations are not replaced by new ones, we will get stagnant in the belief systems of old the past. The only thing that shall not change is the "Quran in its the original form, the arabic verses". But all interpretations and translations should change regularly as we get a new understanding, until judgement day.
Maybe the Arabic word "wa" needs to be reinterpreted, maybe the word "al" needs to be reinterpreted also. Maybe thats not their real meaning. For all we know those damned Christians have corrupted the whole of the Arabic language.
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Salaam Bubbles,
The verses containing the English translations of "bow" (raki) and "prostrate" (sujud) are commonly cited, but going by AQ the word "sujud" does not mean "prostrate" (e.g. 124, 4154, 25. Similarly, according to AQ there is no clear occurrence of "raki" meaning "bow". The only possibility would be 3824 but in this occurrence it is used along with "kharra" which means fall down which seems redundant to add this, and according to you, these is no need for such repetition
Verse 124 is allegorical and emphasizes the obedience that everything in the universe has for Allah. This doesn't change the fact that sujud means prostration and that this was how the Quraish understood the word.
I don't have a problem with repetition in the Quran. I just don't think its appropriate (or even grammatically correct???) to say " " if Quran recitation and salat are one and the same. To say "recite the Quran and recite the Quran" is quite peculiar.
I've read verse 38;24 and the fact that Dawood bowed to Allah to ask for forgiveness shows its something that I should probably do as well.
Please review all the occurrences for "sujud" and "raki" for yourself
http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm4102 was discussed by me here, for further info
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=10279.0I'm going to be blunt in saying that it doesn't matter how the Quran uses a word. What matters is the meaning that the people it was revealed to give its words. If the Quran gives different meanings to the Arabic words of the Quraish then the problem isn't the Quraish, its the Quran.
Having said that, I believe that sujud means prostration in the Quran and I believe it fits perfectly fine. This is how the early Arabs understood it. I don't care much for some of the conspiracy theories that would need to be proposed to claim otherwise.
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Peace Bubbles
I love to discuss and share knowledge and learn from people. However, i think your opinions on Salaat is thread too different and it seems like we won't come to a conclusion. My style is that i like to come to a conclusion, an understanding that is based on reality, logic and facts. My time is valuable and i don't discuss just to discuss. I discuss to reach a conclusion. Something is either false or true, not both it. Therefore facts, objectivity and constructiveness is very important for me.
We should Never ignore Reality, cause Reality has teeths, it bites
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I think you are an intelligent women, but you conjecture much, and dismiss proofs and logic. On some issues you are in denial of reality. You conjecture and follow what you feel is right (Subjectiveness), rather than following reality(Objectiveness).
My rule is that if i am going to discuss with someone on an issue, they should bring proofs that can back up their claims. If someone claims too much without having evidence/proofs to back up their claims (Historical, Quranical or Scientifical proofs), THEN i won't discuss further with them on an issue. I don't like when people ignore facts. We should never think we know everything or we are always right. Humbleness is an important trait many persons need to learn. Since we can't come to an agrement on this issue(Salat), i think we should just agree to disagree
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Verse 124 is allegorical and emphasizes the obedience that everything in the universe has for Allah.
Ignoring the fact that it wasn't even on about obedience to Allah.... since a physical prostration doesn't make sense, it must be allegorical? Fair enough, I already knew it wasn't a physical prostration. Do you also know that it says Joseph used his "raayt" for this? "raayt" is primarily used to mean see with the eyes. How does one see a planet prostrate? I will leave that discrepancy for you to concern yourself with.
Why didn't you comment on the rest? Is it because it disproves your view?This doesn't change the fact that sujud means prostration and that this was how the Quraish understood the word.
You talk much but evidence little.
To say "recite the Quran and recite the Quran" is quite peculiar.
Erm, maybe that's because it doesn't literally say that. Read it again.
I'm going to be blunt in saying that it doesn't matter how the Quran uses a word. What matters is the meaning that the people it was revealed to give its words. If the Quran gives different meanings to the Arabic words of the Quraish then the problem isn't the Quraish, its the Quran.
Thanks for being blunt. I believe our discussion is over.
I don't care much for some of the conspiracy theories that would need to be proposed to claim otherwise.
Is it still a conspiracy if Al Quran uses words hundreds of times and it never means what you want it to mean? How many times does AQ have to use the words to convince you? A thousand? Million? Billion? I will leave that for you to concern yourself with.
SHAKIR What has happened to you? How do you judge? Or have you a book wherein you read, that you have surely therein what you choose?
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Peace Bubbles
I love to discuss and share knowledge and learn from people. However, i think your opinions on Salaat is thread too different and it seems like we won't come to a conclusion. My style is that i like to come to a conclusion, an understanding that is based on reality, logic and facts. My time is valuable and i don't discuss just to discuss. I discuss to reach a conclusion. Something is either false or true, not both it. Therefore facts, objectivity and constructiveness is very important for me.
We should Never ignore Reality, cause Reality has teeths, it bites
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I think you are an intelligent women, but you conjecture much, and dismiss proofs and logic. On some issues you are in denial of reality. You conjecture and follow what you feel is right (Subjectiveness), rather than following reality(Objectiveness).
You haven't given me any proofs to consider. I am not in denial about anything I just want to understand why anyone would think that salat isn't prayer. My initial intention wasn't to disprove anyone, it was to dispel some of the issues that I had regarding salat based on the Quran alone. Instead you're saying I'm in denial, without proving me wrong with your logic, facts and proofs. You believe in some wacky conspiracy theories about Christianity corrupting Islam and causing the Arabs to misunderstand salat, but you haven't provided any evidence for that.
My rule is that if i am going to discuss with someone on an issue, they should bring proofs that can back up their claims. If someone claims too much without having evidence/proofs to back up their claims (Historical, Quranical or Scientifical proofs), THEN i won't discuss further with them on an issue. I don't like when people ignore facts. We should never think we know everything or we are always right. Humbleness is an important trait many persons need to learn. Since we can't come to an agrement on this issue(Salat), i think we should just agree to disagree )
I'm tired of this discussion also, I guess that leaves me in the same position I started in.
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Ignoring the fact that it wasn't even on about obedience to Allah.... since a physical prostration doesn't make sense, it must be allegorical? Fair enough, I already knew it wasn't a physical prostration. Do you also know that it says Joseph used his "raayt" for this? "raayt" is primarily used to mean see with the eyes. How does one see a planet prostrate? I will leave that discrepancy for you to concern yourself with.
Why didn't you comment on the rest? Is it because it disproves your view?At the moment I would be more willing to accept that the Quran uses the word incorrectly than to believe that sujud doesn't literally mean prostration. You've given me no reason to believe that sujud means anything else. What Joseph saw was from a dream anyway so he didn't actually see any stars prostrating. 126, "Thus, your Lord will select you, teach you the interpretation of dreams, and grant His favors to you and the family of Jacob, just as He granted His favors to your fathers, Abraham and Isaac. Your Lord is certainly All-knowing and All-wise."
The reason I didn't comment on the other verses you referenced is because I didn't actually check them. I assumed it was similar to 124 and I don't have the willpower to check every single reference you give. I've already read so many of the articles you've given and I'm getting rather tired of this now.
You talk much but evidence little.
Classical Arabic dictionaries? Hadiths? Historians? Scholars of Arabic? To disagree with all of them would require some kind of conspiracy theory. Do you believe that the Quraish understood salat to not mean prayer? If that is the case do you think that Bukhari just popped up 200 years later and convinced all the Arabs that they were wrong and changed the meaning of salat?
Erm, maybe that's because it doesn't literally say that. Read it again.
brickwall I think I realise that.
Thanks for being blunt. I believe our discussion is over.
Alhamdulilah
Is it still a conspiracy if Al Quran uses words hundreds of times and it never means what you want it to mean? How many times does AQ have to use the words to convince you? A thousand? Million? Billion? I will leave that for you to concern yourself with.
SHAKIR What has happened to you? How do you judge? Or have you a book wherein you read, that you have surely therein what you choose?
Why do you believe the Quran is divinely inspired anyway? If every single word in the Quran is under scrutiny and we cannot be sure what the meanings of certain words are, what reason would I have for believing that the Arabic used in it is beautiful? If Muhammed's history is irrelevant why should I believe that he wasn't a power hungry liar?
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Peace be upon you,
The God does not shy from similitudes. In 2008, are people still following the idea that GOD is some old man in the sky that must be literally bowed and prostrated to? And what do those postures do for your character? Wouldnt it be better to just to submit to the laws of the created universe?
I havent read this entire thread, but has the question arose about how one can enter the gate prostrating?
Also the believers prostrate upon hearing the word of God...does that mean when I am crossing the expressway and I hear the word of God, I must get on the ground? Wouldnt it be more effective to adjust your character to what you hear? Can you not see the wisdom of that simiitude of "prostration" meaning taking the information and using it?
Have the millions of people who physically prostrate changed the character of thier group? Or is it the group who "mentally prostrates" that has more success?
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Peace,
Respectfully.To brother God Within
The Exalted God AllPowerful, The Most Just, does not need us, our prayers nor prostrations or our following or not following His Law.
God exists, regardless of some movements on this tiny little planet, which He can make go away in a single word"Be" and it happens, it's gone.God AllPowerful wants us to obey Him.
If we obey God, we are rewarded with Paradise, if not, we are punished with Hell.
You won't hurt God by disobeying Him nor will you help Him by obeying Him, He does not need help, me, you, this planet and He existed prior to the birth of the Milky Way and even the universe.God creates what He wants and makes things dead too, whatever He wants.
Glory be to God.Peace.
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My belief is that God wants us to "prostrate" ourselves both physically and mentally so that we can show our obedience to God and strengthen our relationship with Him. Perhaps Salat is a form of meditation or maybe its a set way to ensure that we remember God throughout the day and exert ourselves in the form of bowing, prostrating, reciting Quran and reflecting on its meaning to show our love for the creator and to humble ourselves. Salat shouldn't just be a set of physical movements, but should also be a time for remembrance of God and spiritual growth that should hopefully reflect in ones character.
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salaam
verse 2125 according to 'The Message - Progressive Muslims'
2125 - And We have made the Dwelling to be a model for the people and a security. And you shall take from the situation of Abraham for communion. And We had entrusted to Abraham and Ishmael ?You shall purify My Dwelling for those who visit, and those who are devoted, and the kneeling, the prostrating.?
please consider this
2125 - And We have made meditation (bayt) a refuge (mathabatan) for man, and a way to appease the mind (amnan). And you should make out of Ibrahim's position (maqam) as one who has arrived home (mussallan). And We have assigned Ibrahim and Ismael to refine the meditation on Me (baytiya) for those wandering in mind (ta'ifeen) while in devotion ('akifeen), and respectfully (sujood) acknowledging (ruku'.
in 2124 consider 'bi-kalimatin' as 'logically.' the first part could read;
2124 Since Ibrahim has arrived at a conclusion about his Lord logically, therefore he has concluded them, ...
please spend some time to ponder. and ponder. and ask God for guidance. insha-Allah He will guide you. and please apply the suggested meaning for all the respective words used in al-Qur'an, insha-Allah, a comprehension will be given. just ponder. and ponder. and ask the Lord.
without prejudice, please.
peace
joe -
Peace be upon you Alen,
Always respectfully.
To brother God Within
The Exalted God AllPowerful, The Most Just, does not need us, our prayers nor prostrations or our following or not following His Law.
God exists, regardless of some movements on this tiny little planet, which He can make go away in a single word"Be" and it happens, it's gone.Yes I agree that The God does not need you or I ....but God USES you and I ......IF we can make our vehicles worthy of God's full presence. Remember we were created to SERVE the God. As above so below....our eyes serve us so that we can have an outer visual experience, we dont need our eyes, but when we have them they do a great service to us. Or better yet, we can create an idea in our minds, lets say a business plan. We dont NEED that idea, but it would be nice if that IDEA matured into a profitable business. Or like a piece of land, we dont need ....etc
God knows that there will be some one here and there that will step up to the plate and purify thier vehicles as we haved been guided to do. So there is not an image of a worried God. God is ultimate Peace...and so are we.
God AllPowerful wants us to obey Him.
We were created to serve God....to purify our beings so that God can manifest through you....we are God TOOLS, God works through the purified (divine)man and woman.
If we obey God, we are rewarded with Paradise, if not, we are punished with Hell.
metaphorically, yes
You won't hurt God by disobeying Him nor will you help Him by obeying Him
I do not disagree, but that type of wording makes one see God as some "HE" out there that has the capability of being hurt. God is not any THING.
He does not need help, me, you, this planet and He existed prior to the birth of the Milky Way and even the universe.
Correct, we agree again.
God creates what He wants and makes things dead too, whatever He wants.
Glory be to God.Absolutely!
What about the questions I asked in my prior post? Would you like to discuss them with me?
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Peace be upon you bubbles,
My belief is that God wants us to "prostrate" ourselves both physically and mentally so that we can show our obedience to God and strengthen our relationship with Him. Perhaps Salat is a form of meditation or maybe its a set way to ensure that we remember God throughout the day and exert ourselves in the form of bowing, prostrating, reciting Quran and reflecting on its meaning to show our love for the creator and to humble ourselves. Salat shouldn't just be a set of physical movements, but should also be a time for remembrance of God and spiritual growth that should hopefully reflect in ones character.
prostrating to God physically is called exercise! ;D Working out, eating the foods that were designed for our particular bodies, drinking water, etc. One cannot physically bow down to that which has no form. God is closer that the jugular vein...how can one bow to that which is WITHIN? !
Do you see where this leads?
With that said..I am not against physical bowing if it helps you personally to nourish your humbleness at God's Knowledge and Power. I will use that method also from time to time if the situation becomes that severe..but it is firmly rooted in the understanding that God cannot literally be bowed to.
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Peace be upon you Joe,
Looking foward to the rest!!
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peace )
Peace be upon you,
The God does not shy from similitudes. In 2008, are people still following the idea that GOD is some old man in the sky that must be literally bowed and prostrated to? And what do those postures do for your character? Wouldnt it be better to just to submit to the laws of the created universe?
I havent read this entire thread, but has the question arose about how one can enter the gate prostrating?
Also the believers prostrate upon hearing the word of God...does that mean when I am crossing the expressway and I hear the word of God, I must get on the ground? Wouldnt it be more effective to adjust your character to what you hear? Can you not see the wisdom of that simiitude of "prostration" meaning taking the information and using it?
Have the millions of people who physically prostrate changed the character of thier group? Or is it the group who "mentally prostrates" that has more success?
you make really good points there, gw.
i agree that it would be more effective to adjust our character, i don't think the physical part matters that much, i mean we are not our bodies (in a way), we are souls in these bodies that eventually we will lose and all that's left will be our souls, that's the part we should focus oni remember when i bowed and prostrated physically, but i was ignoring the rest of quran, like i wasn't good to my parents, my mom would ask me to do something and i'd be too lazy to do it, then i started thinking, about the part in quran where god tells us to be good to parents, to help them out, after all my mom did sacrifice a lot for me, and it felt better and more right to be good to her, and i think that's more following the quran and bowing and prostrating to God then moving physically up and down, what do you think?
also, i would like to ask, how (by doing what) does one submit to the laws of the created universe?, how does one prostrate mentaly?
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salaam khurram
appreciate if you could provide the verse. please.
peace.
joesalaam khurram
appreciate if you could provide the verse. please.
peace.
joeONE instance of this is
al-Isra' (Children of Israel, The Israelites) 17107
17107
Transliteration Qul aminoo bihi aw la tu/minoo inna allatheena ootoo alAAilma min qablihi itha yutla AAalayhim yakhirroona lil-athqani sujjadan
Literal Say "Believe with it or do not believe, that (E) those who were given/brought to the knowledge, from before it, if (it) is being read/recited on them, they fall down to the chins/beards prostrating." -
peace khurram,
I assume you are linking 17107 with "salat", by its proximity to 17110 where "salat" is used?
This is a fairly weak link. It is possible this is an idiomatic expression, meaning they submit their whole self (i.e. to the chin), or if taken literally, it can mean to lower the head and thus the chin to the chest in recognition/acknowledgement/sujud. However, the strongest argument against this being literal is the logic of it, as there is no way one should physically fall to the ground when The Quran is recited upon them, as that would be highly impractical, and possibly nonsensical.
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Peace.
Then perhaps I would be nonsensical since when I heard the quran and the message of the quran alone via a video by Rashad Khalifa I feel down on my chin and prostrated as I said, "I submit to the Lord of the worlds". So i guess that is nonsense to others, but a life changing moment for some.
Glory Be To Our God.
