Why does God punish unbelievers?
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But, what if a disbeliever concedes while they are in hell? Will God say, "Too bad, you had your chance!"
Isn't it true that all disbelievers could concede at some point... whether in this world or in hell?
Salaam,
I think the disbelievers concede immediately on Judgement Day! But they're still chucked in Hell.
We may have to accept it is eternal. This is what will scare us and hopefully never let Satan misguide us into disbelieving.
A disaster that leaves you without a family and homeless makes you extremely vulnerable to Satan. But if you fear God and the punishment for disbelieving, then you can never go wrong!
I'm still reading loads on this. There is a good audio series on this in Arabic by Tariq Suwaidan. Even though he refers to Hadith occasionally, he maintains the opinion that the subject is not very important and not worth extensive research. It is just useful to know about! http//www.islamcvoice.com/catplay.php?catsmktba=106&page=2#
Regards
Ramzi
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Peace Dotty, Huruf
God outlines exactly what the disbelievers will do in Hell!
He says they will not be allowed to make amends and if they bear it patiently it will not help none!
He says that if you die with disbelief on your soul, all your deeds will amount to nothing! (2521-23)
The disbelievers realise they're wrongdoing on the Day of Judgement, even before hell!
They will ask is there any way out but will be told No!
They will ask can we have a day of no punishment and the guardians of hell will tell them no!I understand it is hard to conceive that there is no forgiveness for disbelievers once they die and that it is most certainly ETERNAL, but that is what is shown in the Qur'an. God says He is severe in punishment, he's not lying!
Here are some ayats
He whom Allah sendeth astray, for him there is no protecting friend after Him. And thou (Muhammad) wilt see the evil-doers when they see the doom, (how) they say Is there any way of return? And thou wilt see them exposed to (the Fire), made humble by disgrace, and looking with veiled eyes. And those who believe will say Lo! the losers are they who lose themselves and their housefolk on the Day of Resurrection. Lo! are not the wrong-doers in perpetual torment?
4244And those in the Fire say unto the guards of hell Entreat your Lord that He relieve us of a day of the torment. They say Came not your messengers unto you with clear proofs? They say Yea, verily. They say Then do ye pray, although the prayer of disbelievers is in vain.
4049Here is your ayat for no forgiveness and doom for disbelievers
Thos who disbelieve. bar others from God's path, and oppose the Messenger when they have been shown guidance, do not harm God in any way. He will make their deeds go to waste - believers, obey God and the Messenger do not let your deeds go to waste - God will not forgive those who disbelieve, bar others from God's path, and die as disbelievers
4732O ye assembly of the jinn and humankind! Came there not unto you messengers of your own who recounted unto you My tokens and warned you of the meeting of this your Day? They will say We testify against ourselves. And the life of the world beguiled them. And they testify against themselves that they were disbelievers.
6130Woe on that Day to those who deny the Truth, who amuse themselves with idle chatter on that Day they will be thrust into the Fire of Hell. 'This is the Fire you used to deny. So is this sorcery? Do you still not see it? Burn in it - IT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE WHETHER YOU BEAR IT PATIENTLY OR NOT - you are only being repaid for what you have done.'
5211-16And though they are resigned, yet the Fire is still their home; and if they ask for favour, yet they are not of those unto whom favour can be shown.
4124And it will be said This day We forget you, even as ye forgot the meeting of this your day; and your habitation is the Fire, and there is none to help you. This, forasmuch as ye made the revelations of Allah a jest, and the life of the world beguiled you. Therefor this day they come not forth from thence, nor can they make amends.
4535O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites! Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey's end.
973Lo! those who disbelieve and deal in wrong, Allah will never forgive them, neither will He guide them unto a road, Except the road of hell, wherein they will abide for ever. And that is ever easy for Allah.
4169What is your understanding of the words ultimate, stay, journey's end, come not forth from thence?
Do you need any more signs? I could give you many more. This isn't my book, it's God's message, I'm only showing you the ayats I use to come of understanding. We must learn from these Ayats that it is essential that we warn those who fear God to devote to God alone and not store this knowledge within ourselves and gloat, because once we die....that's it. All judgement lies in God's hands then.
Peace
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I also think that it is more a matter of cause and effect. If we harden to the point where no feeling of piety can enter into us, then indeed we become like stones and it will be a real smelting fire what we will need to melt and let piety in may be for some time, just the kind of fire able to melt us.
I have great objections for the forever thing and I already stated them at the beginnin, although nobody has answered them.
As to the eternal thing, God is the first and the last, and that is the Quran which says, hell therefore cannot last as much as God. Are there two eternities? Is something opposed to God to last as much as Him?
God created man to worship Him. Are there then men who will never worship Him? If you say people will worship God in hell, I ask is being in hell compatible with worshipping God? How? Wouldn't the worship of God bring peace to the soul of the worshipper?
How can you be sure that the kh-l-d referring to hell is meaning eternal and not a long lasting thing, a long time of one thing as usually understood? Where is in the Quran an indication of such a thing, of such meaning and not the other meaning?
As to 2.80
And they say "The Fire shall not touch us but for a few numbered days" Say "Have ye taken a promise from Allah, for He never breaks His promise? or is it that ye say of Allah what ye do not know?"Is really, really eternity, the only thing different or very different or even opposed to a few numbered days? Would a trillion years be a few numbered days? Are quantities in this world a choice between a few numbered of whatever on the one side and eternity or infinity on the other? We know that that is not only not the only choice not even the normal, usual or logical one. So how come it should be so in this case?
And would an eternity of suffering be a JUST punishment or retribution for anything? Nobody of you really really believe it. You may conceive the idea that it could exist, but you do not believe that such a thing would be just, even if you can conceive that some powerful, allpowerful being could be able to impose such a thing and impose also that we say it is just, but I do not believe that anybody believes that that would be just, let alone merciful or anything loosely related to the loving attributes of the MOST MERCIFUL, the MOST WISE, the MOST GENEROUS. As to if such a punishment would be deserved, you know perfectly well it would not be deserved. You can think of a million years and wish it and think that it is fit for some horrendous people. May be gettint into to the trillions of years would you still might think that it was fair, but at some point you would find it to much, or not? JUST? Such a punishment JUST? No. It wouldn't be just, not with the fitra and sense of justice that God has put into our nature, and I think that is what He talks about to us, not about some extrauniversal concept of justice we cannot grasp but to the one we can grasp and react to and intimately recognize as virtuous.
And what is merciful about "Lord, I have now been a few thousands of trillions of eons now worshipping you, acknowledging you and completely repented", and the Merciful God would say... what? You know I told you, don't you, that you would be in hell forever, don't you, so just then stop it. And the man would still worship God and the Most Merciful one, more merciful than any being that has ever existed, and God would just go on keeping him in hell, because what is important forever is that kh-l-d be equal (=) eternal.
Or the person is in hell forever without worshipping God. So what kind of God is that that created someone to worship Him and fails forever, just out of obstinacy, because he could just as well punish a little better and bring repentance. But he has changed his mind and now he doesn't want his creatures to worship him, now he would rather have them not worship him forever. But I haven't read among the beautiful names of God any that says The Whimsical or the fickle.
The God that depicts this eternal Hell concept seems to be utterly laughable and incredibly shallow, because really is the torture of hell for a few hundred years such a trifle? such an easy and assumable matter? Is that so when in fact we are able to go out of our senses and shudder at the mere thought of some of the pain that people could inflict us? And however we find it perfectly plausible that it be applied forever as matter of course? Are we talking real? I think not, I think that what we think is that we could perfectly bear that some people are tortured for whichever time, because that for us are just thoughts, but I could not diggest that I be tortured, really tortured for even a minute. I can't conceive of it and I refuse to entertain the thought. And that is what hapens with cruel and sadist people. They can well bear that others be tortured and torture them themselves, but a whole different thing is to be tortured oneself. That is the whole difference. And I think that difference between belief and disbelief (disbelief in love, in God, in otherness, that is, the refusal to acknowledge that we are not God, that God is sacred and we serve the sacred) and that is what SUFFERING is supposed to teach us. How much suffering? All the necessary for us to learn, and love and worship, and then, we can blessedly love in hell forever. Forever? Wouldn't that be another god, a loving God forever?
If anything, would any of this make sense?
Salaam
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They only worship because they are being punished. When they were on Earth they revelled in their own pleasure. They denied it because they couldn't see it. NOW they see it or they see certain death then they repent. That is not true worship. Disbelievers will only be true to God when they see him. That is not belief. God created Man to Worship but in our free will many of us go astray, God says it doesn't matter once you are in Hell if you worship because it is too late you called it sorcery before and you didn't think there was life after death THEREFORE the disbelievers have no right in saying oh this is too harsh, oh lighten this suffering, when you called it lies before! God ALSO says that the disbelievers will want to go back to their previous life and do good works, but God says you are in fact liars, didn't we give you a life long enough that if you were to turn to God you would have done it, and when we extend your life you grow MORE insolent. These are God's words, not mine. He knows what they will say and what they would do, not any of us here.
Hell can last for ever as can the Garden, there is no contradiction in that. In essence we are all eternal because we are God's WILL manifest, which is eternal.
Everyone of us, disbelievers or believers, will live forever and never taste death again, does that mean WE are Gods or that WE contradict God?
Plus God never says anywhere that the Day of Resurrection is 24 hours nor does he say that the people in hell are asking for relief for 24 hours.......Yawm = Aeon or period of time (God creating the Heavens and Earth in six AEONS not 144 hours). Sometimes I think every human beings understanding of the 2nd creation is very limited because we do not speak as God speaks, we do not describe time as God does. For example God saying Be and it is does not mean INSTANTANEOUS, God evolves things, God causes things to shape and form over time (as he describes conception) So if God says be and it is he is essentially speaking OUTSIDE of time. So any referral to time after our death cannot really be taken with FULL understanding i.e a determined time we can record now.
When you read the Qur'an I am curious, do you think hell is purgatory, a temporary stay? Or permanent. I personally believe Hell is inconceivable and even too cruel it is because we exist in a time dimension, therefore eternity is something we have to believe in, not thing we know of personally.
God is Merciful to all disbelievers, God has allowed them to live their lives and revel and become rich and fornicate and abuse and destroy and kill and cause war and insult and persecute and hoard and be miserly and not charitable and indecent and arrogant and insolent. But they will return to God ALONE and that will be that. God gives even the most insolent provisions from Earth, and yet they are not even grateful, He gave them their own lungs to breathe, did the disbelievers create them or God? Are we making are own heart beat, our children be born or our minds to grow or GOD? If you turn away from God the effect is complete rejection BECAUSE you complete reject all you are, you are immediately dispensible. Those who reject will of course understand the diar nature of HELL when they are suffering in it, what is the point of that?
That's like drinking poison thinking it is an elixir. Then scoffing when people say "Do not drink it, it will kill you, Oh would that you listen, I'm only here to warn you!" and then you scoff and say "That's rubbish, its my elixir, I'm an immortal, I know what I am talking about, go away, Poison doesn't exist what on Earth are you saying, Sorcery!". Then when you're on your death bed saying "Oh poison kills, I admit! I submit! poison kills people, please stop poison, I respect you dear poison!" Too late! You are STILL going to DIE from the Poison despite the pain and the slow death of it, it is a RESULT of what you have DONE - drinking the poison -...Cause and Effect.
Peace
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Peace be upon you,
God does no punish, God makes things based on LAW and when you break the law, you punish yourself. You cant say that a person who jumps off a building to thier death was punished by Gravity.
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Peace be upon you,
God does no punish, God makes things based on LAW and when you break the law, you punish yourself. You cant say that a person who jumps off a building to thier death was punished by Gravity.
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Peace be upon you,
God does no punish, God makes things based on LAW and when you break the law, you punish yourself. You cant say that a person who jumps off a building to thier death was punished by Gravity.
exactly what I'm trying to say in my extended paragraphs. God is Law, if you reject the law you incur the result, that is nothing but cause and effect.
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Thanks, Soof, for the ayas.
I have gone trough all of them and I have to say that what is undoubtable is that punishment is certain and inescapable. No way to escape it. The eternal part is in the head of the reader and some times in the pen of the translator.
Please justify that kh-l-d must necessarily mean "eternal". I repeat my request that those well versed in Arabic come and touch upon this. My own modest knowledge and experience of Arabic do not authorize me to take kh-l-d as eternal as an inevitable translation or even the preferred, and still I am asking myself when the meaning as eternal comes.
Other than that
9.73
The translation you quote says
Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey's end.
The one I have most at hand, which is Yusuf Ali, says
Their abode is hell - an evil refuge indeed.
As you see, precisely the word you highlight, is not in the second translation, and indeed it is not in the original Arabic either.
Now thanks for "my" aya, as you call it. It says that God will not forgive them but what may be understood by that is that indeed they will be punished no matter what.
From those you quote this aya
Lo! those who disbelieve and deal in wrong, Allah will never forgive them, neither will He guide them unto a road, Except the road of hell, wherein they will abide for ever. And that is ever easy for Allah.
4169Is they one that would mos properly uphold what you say.
Now on your next message you speak about time and that what we may say may be nonsense if we find ourselves out of time, but that is what I have been meaning all the time, and that therefore this insistence on something being "forever" was in itself not very entlightening, and that is why I have insisted on the absurdity of trillions years and so on.
The fact is that we insist on monstruosities to anybody's honest understanding and attribute them to God based on this "forever" word.
You say that it is in order to instil fear on people so that they are not fools.
I respect your attitude and understanding. I guess there are indeed people who function out of fear. However there are also many people who would never (never?) react out of fear nor would be convinced by it, but by other things and to whom this fear thing rather than make them believe would have the opposite effect. And that not because they do not want to believe and are evil, but because they find this forever vengeance unjust, unmerciful andcruel, which it is if it is understood in those terms.
And you can call it cause and effect or whatever. A God that creates somebody with the knowledge that it will be forever wretched can hardly be called Loving, or most merciful, unless of course we do not get the full picture, which we surely don't.
The word perpetual, that is used in one of the ayas you quote, seems to me more fortunate. It has the meaning of lasting the same time as some "life" or condition.
For as long as somebody is in a certain state its lot will be this or that. Then it will be another life or state or even another being. May be a jinn. That to me would make more sense.
Salaam
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Peace all,
If a person thinks that ultimately his punishment will be over in hell after he has paid for his crime in equal terms then it would be easy for him to commit sins. For example a person commited one murder in his life time so if he would think that after going to hell and dieing once he would be forgiven. It would make it easier for him to commit sins.
Quran states in verse 323-24 "Did you not see those who were given a portion of the Scripture being invited to God?s Scripture to judge between them, then a group of them turns away while they are adverse?"That is because they said ?The Fire will not touch us except a few number of days,? and they were arrogant by what they invented in their system.
verse 279-81 "So woe to those who write the Scripture with their hands then say ?This is from God,? so that they can seek a cheap gain! Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they gained.And they said ?The Fire will not touch us except for a few number of days.? Say ?Have you taken a pledge with God? If so, then God will not break His pledge. Or do you say about God what you do not know??Indeed, whoever gains a sin, and is surrounded by his mistakes; those are the people of the Fire, in it they abide eternally.
The fear of eternal torture could make us conform to God's laws. Those people who did not get knowledge like red indian tribes that lived in north america would be judged according to their knowledge and not according to those living in well informed modern societies.
Verse 2233 "... We do not burden a soul beyond its means..."
verse 325 "How shall it be when We gather them on the Day in which there is no doubt; and every soul shall receive what it has earned, and they will not be wronged."
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Peace Huruf
The reality is whether the disbelievers are in Hell for 10 days, 100 years, 10 billion years, God tells us that it is a thoroughly bad place to be, and that no one should wish to be there. Whether people suffer in Hell and are destroyed is no consolation or invitation to do wrongdoing. No sane person would wish to go in hell for any period of time, this is what God is showing us. Instead of focusing on the time period people should focus on how to avoid going to Hell. Eternity or one day is irrelevant, we do not want to be there. God created us with understanding, those who deny God, deny this understanding, therefore God will judge them as they are, rejectors.
My understanding is there is nothing in the Qur'an to tell me Hell will be emptied, or that it is a temporary stay, or that it has numbered days on it. I only understand a SIMILITUDE of Hell, as you rightly put it none of us know exactly what the Garden or the Fire will be like. It is only a description so that we may be WARNED that there is "Fire of whose fuel is Jinn and Men". It is not to compell us to believe in God, it is just to tell us there is an effect for EVERYTHING we do, Hell is the effect of disbelief. I never said Hell is there so people are not fools or that we should function out of fear. We should function out of Understanding and Verification and studying the Scripture. God says himself There is no compulsion in Religion. Every man woman child should come to God through their own understanding, no ones journey is any less if they turned to God out of fear, awe, miracles or analysis, as long as we are true to the belief and we are consistent.
Respectfully, I presented a counter-argument to what you said about Hell cannot be eternal like God, I was wondering what you thought about that?
I believe God is explaining to Us something which is beyond our comprehension, He presents us similitudes Fire, stones, gates, angels. that is not to say anyone who debates or questions or asks are fools in any way. We are all curious and humble people seeking knowledge. But what we should learn is that Hell as we understand is something to be avoided REGARDLESS of the time or mutation or if we die after or anything. Just like Poison is something that SHOULD NOT be drunk, unless you want to suffer pain and death. I respect your attitude and understanding as well.
Peace
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If a person thinks that ultimately his punishment will be over in hell after he has paid for his crime in equal terms then it would be easy for him to commit sins. For example a person commited one murder in his life time so if he would think that after going to hell and dieing once he would be forgiven. It would make it easier for him to commit sins.
If that's the case then people who commit crimes in this earthly life will be quicker to think their punishment will be over in prison after they have paid for their crime... so why not go ahead and rape, kill, torture, steal, whatever! Do you seriously think people have that attitude?
Peace,
dotty -
I believe God is explaining to Us something which is beyond our comprehension, He presents us similitudes Fire, stones, gates, angels. that is not to say anyone who debates or questions or asks are fools in any way. We are all curious and humble people seeking knowledge. But what we should learn is that Hell as we understand is something to be avoided REGARDLESS of the time or mutation or if we die after or anything. Just like Poison is something that SHOULD NOT be drunk, unless you want to suffer pain and death. I respect your attitude and understanding as well.
Nicely put!
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Peace dotty,
If that's the case then people who commit crimes in this earthly life will be quicker to think their punishment will be over in prison after they have paid for their crime... so why not go ahead and rape, kill, torture, steal, whatever! Do you seriously think people have that attitude?
On earth if people do not believe in God do their worldly life is their god so they would not want to reduce it by going to a Jail. The thing is that life in the hereafter will be eternal so if a punishment is temporary it is comaparable to nothing because if was say 50 years, the punishment in hell is 25 years and rest 25 years in paradise then it would make a difference. Even a million years in hell and then trillions of years in paradise eternally would make hell unimportant. It would be that those million years are ultimately going to end and life in paradise is going to start so people will have less fear from sins. Better seek forgiveness of God in this world rather than developing such concepts as som traditionalist literature tells us that whoever has said there is no god but God will ultimately go to paradise after completing punishment in hell if he were not a good muslim. But when you come to Quran alone you realise it is false.
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Salaam abrar,
huruf said it very well...
"The reality is whether the disbelievers are in Hell for 10 days, 100 years, 10 billion years, God tells us that it is a thoroughly bad place to be, and that no one should wish to be there. Whether people suffer in Hell and are destroyed is no consolation or invitation to do wrongdoing. No sane person would wish to go in hell for any period of time, this is what God is showing us. Instead of focusing on the time period people should focus on how to avoid going to Hell. Eternity or one day is irrelevant, we do not want to be there."
peace
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Personally I believe it will be permenant unless God wills otherwise. What rational being would wish for a permenant end to his existance if it was just for a set period?
The following verses show that the person would rather be destroyed than face it.8410 And as for he who is given his record behind his back.
8411 He will invoke his destruction.
8412 And he will enter a blazing Fire.6925 As for him who is given his record in his left, he will say ?Oh, I wish I never received my record,?
6926 ?And that I never knew my account,?
6927 ?I wish the end had been final,?Also
11106 As for those who are distraught, they will be in the Fire; in it for them is a sighing and a wailing.
11107 They will abide in it as long as the heavens and Earth exist, except for what your Lord wishes. Your Lord does as He pleases.
11108 As for those who are fortunate, they will be in Paradise; in it they will abide as long as the heavens and Earth exist, except for what your Lord wishes, a giving without end. -
Peace,
It is not a punishment, but a consequence. A process of cause and effect. I have discussed it in the latter part of my essay
http//deenrc.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/quranic-cosmology-a-short-introduction-by-ay-mol-f.pdf
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I think God punishing the unbeliever = the unbeliever punishing themself. This happens not because he or she doesn't believe in God's existence, but because they don't believe him. Believing = feeding the less fortunate, kindness, humbleness, growth, understanding, etc.. The unbeliever who is caught up in the money and materials of this world is lost in his vanity. He/she shall never have the spiritual and mental highs we the believers have. The unbeliever shall never grow as the believer, he is stuck, lost. I also think that forever/eternity in the Qur'an is just figurative, like when we tell someone "I will love you forever" this isn't literally possible.
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Peace,
Only God knows for sure. We do not know all the circumstances. For example, how old was the killer, what were the circumstances, does the killer see his/her fault and compensate their crimes to society and so on. All these are counted. In the my essay I have given a list of what the Quran says are the rules of judgement
The effects of their deeds on their own Self will be judged according to these factors
? The person?s is judged on intention (2225, 589).
? The person?s sincere effort to compensate their crimes by benefitting mankind (1317, 11114).
? Has no knowledge of the law or the Divine Law or doesn?t understand it
correctly (6131).
? Is minor or insane and not capable of understanding (1736).
? Is forced to do a thing (16106).
Every human action affects his own Self (6164). His deeds are recorded by the
Universal Forces, Malikah, constantly into the Umm Al-Kitaab, the Divine
datebase which is called the Quantum Field/Vacuum by scientists (2147, 997-6,
7829, 8210-12).
? The Self is also affected by hidden and unfulfilled desires or intentions as these
are the foundations for further actions not committed (4019).
? Only Allah knows how much credit or discredit is to be given to a particular act.
(5332), but the benefiting deeds outweigh the harmful ones by 10 to 1 (6160).
And God?s Rahma, all the resources for further development, is the reason for our
creation, and this will also weigh, He has created us for further development, this
is His driving thought behind our creation, and this will decide how His law of
judgment will work
11119 Save him on whom your Developer of all your stages of evolution has given
His Rahma, His continuous nourishment; and for that He did create them.
? When the new universe is created, to determine the level of evolution (Jannah), or
non-evolution (Jahannam), all the actions will be weighed. Those whose balance
of good and constructive deeds are in the majority (is heavier) will evolve further,
but those whose balance goes against them (is lighter) are the ones who have
harmed themselves by their willful rejection of Allah's Message and will be in a
state of non-evolution (78-9).
? As the system is fair and based on your personal development, no one would be
able to help any other, nor any intercession is allowed (2123).
? No action would go un-recompensated (325).
? Everyone will get the consequence of his own deeds. (7147, 5216, 3739,
452.
? Absolute and full justice will be done, and no one will be dealt with unjustly, as
the selection is made by laws and not by emotions (16111, 4017, 3970).
? No one will be able to transfer his good or bad deeds to others ? every person will
be judged on their own contributions or harm to one?s Self or others (2286,
6105, 6165, 10108, 1317, 177, 1715, 2740, 2792, 296, 3112, 3518, 3941,
4515)