Who are the people of the book?
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Peace "arnab",
So, you don't even believe in the Quran verses on Moses??
If you don't believe that he exists then what about THE HUGE number of verses in the Quran regarding MOSES?
JK- Those quranic verses as i said ARE NUMERICALLY CONNECTED to other verses which shows that they belong to the Quran. Without this i wouldnt know whether those verses are Quranic or not. This is what ive been trying to explain to you before but you dont seem to get it. Besides this none of verses which even you accept as Quran contain any sort of illogical and absurd laws/suggestions/prescriptions as the OT Bible and the list of injustice in the OT is VERY LONG. Here http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9596928.msg174946#msg174946
Yes, there are books in the Dead Sea Scrolls that we were not previously aware of.
rotfl
You should read what I wrote here http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=16727.0 ;D
Salam,
ArnabJK- Not only that but there are DISCREPANCIES with the masocretic manuscripts. The manuscripts which supposedly contain the Quran also contain differences even if not that much but i say if GOD says He'll protect a scripture Hed do it down tot he minimum possible which is the LETTER. GOD Bless!
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Peace "arnab",
JK- WELL thats it! The very specification of stoning allegedly by GOD makes it impossible for the scripture to be from Him. GOD does not prescribe a punishment which is entirely unjust and illogical or do you say adultery is ever a greater crime than murder ore even rape? BUT that is not all. GOD in the OT also allegedly prescribes stoning/burning to death FOR APOSTATES/BLASPHEMERS and it is impossible to justify this as ive explained.
JK- In case of stoning the prescription is clear and does not refer to allegorical death and that is enough to prove this document is not from GOD.
JK- This is exactly what im disputing. GOD would never prescribe such penalties for ANY NATION on the planet. Rather hHe would send a message abolishing such vile man made laws. And your forgetting the worse law of stoning/burning blasphemers.
JK- You dont need to mention court procedures. Even "muslims" have court procedures and shariah doesnt allow just arbitrary stoning. THE VERY PUNISHMENT IS UNACEPTABLE. Thats the point you ned to get INTO YOUR HEAD.
JK- As i said the very fact that the OT even allows or suggests such a punishment is enough to say that it is not Divinely inspired.
JK- You dont need to educate me on all this since im very well aware of this and your not getting my point. Do we see in any modern law book, except shariah which is considered outdated and barabric, a punishment of stoning/burning for aduleters or worse yet blasphemy or apostasy? Such punishments MUST NOT EVEN EXIST IN DIVINE LAW ESPECIALLY NOT FOR SOMETHING AS RELATIVE AS BLASPHEMY. Get this now?
JK- YET the OT suggests a law for killing/stoning blasphemers/apostates. As i said the very suggestion of these is enough to prove the sccripture NOT divine for such LAWS ARE NEVER RIGHT NEVER!
JK- Again i said the very existence of the law of stoning is enough to prove the scripture undivine. 2ndly the so called gospels of Jesus are very inconsistent and have been written years after Jesus. This is INDISPUTABLE amongst the scientific community and has been discussed in the 3rd part of the video above by Michael Schermer.
JK- The Quran NEVER states any law or so much as a suggestion from GOD that apostates should be killed. If it did i would never have accepted it as the Word of GOD as ive explained to you many times now.
JK- As i mentioned earlier just because manuscripts are older than Isa and Muhammad does not mean they belong to the person who is claimed to have originally received them i.e. Moses in this case. There is NO arch evidence for the very existence of Moses till today so how can you say those are the original manuscripts? Yes part of those scriptures maybe correct and the Jews and Christians were asked to realize Muhammad saying the truth via that small truthful part which the people of the book still possessed. that was enough for them at that time because they knew Muhammad could not possibly have known even that.
JK- Another black and white classification of yours. There are many shades of grey and many levels of kufr and imaan. GOD Bless!
Ok, you don't believe...you've said that multiple times in this ONE post....is there anything NEW that you would like to add?
2171
The example of such disbelievers is that of
parrots who repeat what they hear of sounds and calls,
without understanding.
Deaf, dumb, and blind; they cannot understand.
Salam,
Arnab -
Peace "arnab",
Ok, you don't believe...you've said that multiple times in this ONE post....is there anything NEW that you would like to add?
2171
The example of such disbelievers is that of
parrots who repeat what they hear of sounds and calls,
without understanding.
Deaf, dumb, and blind; they cannot understand.
Salam,
ArnabJK- I think im anything than deaf , dumb and blind and neither are the scientific minded people whove lead us out of the dark ages where exactly the suggestions/laws of the OT Bible were applicable. You need a serious reality check. I dont just beleive anything is from GOD just because it says so. I use my GOD given senses and anlyse everything carefully and I do believe that the Quran is the Word of GOD and so are the Torah, Psalms and Injeel non of which have been fully revealed to us yet though and i also beleive ALL OF THEM are NUMERICALLY STRUCTURED and that will be the only way theyd be revealed to us fully GW. GOD Bless!
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I use my GOD given senses and anlyse everything carefully and I do believe that the Quran is the Word of GOD and so are the Torah, Psalms and Injeel non of which have been fully revealed to us yet though and i also beleive ALL OF THEM are NUMERICALLY STRUCTURED and that will be the only way theyd be revealed to us fully GW. GOD Bless!
Al-Qur'an teaches us that these books are inspired. However, it places specific emphasis on them, telling us to believe in them - this wouldn't be possible if they weren't revealed to us in entirety. You can't believe in books you've never seen, especially if you think they haven't even been revealed entirely, so obviously, these divinely-inspired books must be somewhere within our grasp, so we can study, understand, and believe in them alongside al-Qur'an... Plus, there is nowhere (that I've seen at least) in al-Qur'an that says that any one of these other books is numerically structured - that is an assumption, but it is not verified anywhere in the Scriptures...
Peace.
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Peace "ahmad bilal",
Al-Qur'an teaches us that these books are inspired. However, it places specific emphasis on them, telling us to believe in them - this wouldn't be possible if they weren't revealed to us in entirety. You can't believe in books you've never seen, especially if you think they haven't even been revealed entirely, so obviously, these divinely-inspired books must be somewhere within our grasp, so we can study, understand, and believe in them alongside al-Qur'an... Plus, there is nowhere (that I've seen at least) in al-Qur'an that says that any one of these other books is numerically structured - that is an assumption, but it is not verified anywhere in the Scriptures...
JK- NO they do not need to be immediately in our grasp. Ill give you an example why this argument is false. Consider the people who cant read or write? How can they even have access to the Quran? How about those people who dont know classical Arabic? They still need time to get access to the Quranic message dont they? How about the difference between hafs and warsh manuscripts and readings? We needed time to figure out which is the true Quran. Besides this there are many statements in the Quran like "7 heavens" etc which we dont yet understand. Thus it is enough if we see part of a book to beleive that theyr from GOD if theres enough evidence to support this. In regards to the numerical stucture that is BASED ON OBSERVATIONAL evidence applied on the scriptures as is the case with so many other things in science. Check out my link on the numerical structure of gen 11 and john 11 and itll be self evident to you that this is not a coincidental pattern
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13465.0
GOD Bless! -
Al-Qur'an teaches us that these books are inspired. However, it places specific emphasis on them, telling us to believe in them - this wouldn't be possible if they weren't revealed to us in entirety. You can't believe in books you've never seen, especially if you think they haven't even been revealed entirely, so obviously, these divinely-inspired books must be somewhere within our grasp, so we can study, understand, and believe in them alongside al-Qur'an...
Salam,
Well said. peace
Plus, there is nowhere (that I've seen at least) in al-Qur'an that says that any one of these other books is numerically structured - that is an assumption, but it is not verified anywhere in the Scriptures...
The numerical code is a fabrication revolving around mathematical apophenia.
Salam,
Arnab -
Salam, Arnab,
So, Is what I am quoting underneath revealed? If it is revealed, who revealed it to whom?
Genesis 6 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
Public Domain"Genesis 6
1And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
2That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
3And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
4There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
5And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
6And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart."
Salaam
Salam Huruf,
It was revealed to Moses.
We know that there was an oral tradition that was passed down through out the generations before Moses.
We know that for generations God's laws were observed by some including Abraham.
We know that Abraham was a muslim, upright and an example for all generations.
This was before the Torah was written down.So the question is did Moses recieve this previous revelation (history that happened before he was born)
because it was revelation given to Abraham or Noah or another prophet from God and Moses recieved it via oral tradition?
or was it revelation direct from God at the time of the Torah?
I don't know the answer to that.
Salam,
Arnab -
Peace "arnab",
GOD does not prescribe a punishment which is entirely unjust and illogical or do you say adultery is ever a greater crime than murder ore even rape? BUT that is not all. GOD in the OT also allegedly prescribes stoning/burning to death FOR APOSTATES/BLASPHEMERS and it is impossible to justify this as ive explained.
Moses said, in the Quran, that God prescribed death for Israiles Blasphemers
(
And Moses said to his people "O my people! Verily, you have wronged yourselves by worshipping the calf. So turn in repentance to your Creator and kill yourselves, that will be better for you with your Creator." Then He accepted your repentance. Truly, He is the One Who accepts repentance, the Most Merciful. (2-54)JK!! Please Think before answering, PLEASE pr
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Moses said, in the Quran, that God prescribed death for Israiles Blasphemers
(
And Moses said to his people "O my people! Verily, you have wronged yourselves by worshipping the calf. So turn in repentance to your Creator and kill yourselves, that will be better for you with your Creator." Then He accepted your repentance. Truly, He is the One Who accepts repentance, the Most Merciful. (2-54)JK!! Please Think before answering, PLEASE pr
Peace belalhammad, and everyone.
The focus of this Scripture tells exactly what the context is. It says
"And Moses said to his people 'O my people! Verily, you have wronged yourselves by worshipping the calf. So turn in repentance to your Creator and kill yourselves, that will be better for you with your Creator.'"
According to this text, Mousa was saying that the Israelites would be demonstrating their repentence by 'killing themselves', and this would lead to their being forgiven by God. However, after that, it says
"Then He accepted your repentance. Truly, He is the One Who accepts repentance, the Most Merciful."
Now, in that Scripture, it doesn't say anything about them literally killing themselves and being raised up again as a sign of God's mercy - it simply says that they were forgiven, and God accepted their repentence. This implies that God wasn't speaking of them LITERALLY killing themselves, physically committing suicide. He was speaking of them killing their "egos" and their "pride", which is literally a form of repentence. We aren't instructed by God to actually kill ourselves - suicide is condemned in al-Qur'an...
Peace.
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Peace belalhammad, and everyone.
The focus of this Scripture tells exactly what the context is. It says
"And Moses said to his people 'O my people! Verily, you have wronged yourselves by worshipping the calf. So turn in repentance to your Creator and kill yourselves, that will be better for you with your Creator.'"
According to this text, Mousa was saying that the Israelites would be demonstrating their repentence by 'killing themselves', and this would lead to their being forgiven by God. However, after that, it says
"Then He accepted your repentance. Truly, He is the One Who accepts repentance, the Most Merciful."
Now, in that Scripture, it doesn't say anything about them literally killing themselves and being raised up again as a sign of God's mercy - it simply says that they were forgiven, and God accepted their repentence. This implies that God wasn't speaking of them LITERALLY killing themselves, physically committing suicide. He was speaking of them killing their "egos" and their "pride", which is literally a form of repentence. We aren't instructed by God to actually kill ourselves - suicide is condemned in al-Qur'an...
Peace.
exactly right peace
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He was speaking of them killing their "egos" and their "pride", which is literally a form of repentence. We aren't instructed by God to actually kill ourselves - suicide is condemned in al-Qur'an...
Peace.
Salaam,
Although my Arabic understanding is not very good but I too understand that nafs, among other meanings, also means ego and pride and that we must kill this part of ourself.
peace -
Peace belalhammad, and everyone.
The focus of this Scripture tells exactly what the context is. It says
"And Moses said to his people 'O my people! Verily, you have wronged yourselves by worshipping the calf. So turn in repentance to your Creator and kill yourselves, that will be better for you with your Creator.'"
According to this text, Mousa was saying that the Israelites would be demonstrating their repentence by 'killing themselves', and this would lead to their being forgiven by God. However, after that, it says
"Then He accepted your repentance. Truly, He is the One Who accepts repentance, the Most Merciful."
Now, in that Scripture, it doesn't say anything about them literally killing themselves and being raised up again as a sign of God's mercy - it simply says that they were forgiven, and God accepted their repentence. This implies that God wasn't speaking of them LITERALLY killing themselves, physically committing suicide. He was speaking of them killing their "egos" and their "pride", which is literally a form of repentence. We aren't instructed by God to actually kill ourselves - suicide is condemned in al-Qur'an...
Peace.
Peace,
The meaning of 2-54 can be used to support that killing was the punishment for Isrealis Blasphemers, as Arnab showed from Torah. I understood the meanining of this verse as you do untill Arnab showed us the Torah Punshment, then, I changed my understanding.
Let me give you another example from Quran were God shows that he could have commanded us to Kill ourselves when commetting Koffer, but He Chose not to due to our weakness (few of us would have obay the order)(
If We had ordered them to Kill themselves or to leave their homes, very few of them would have done it but if they had done what they were (actually) told, it would have been best for them, and would have gone farthest to strengthen their (faith). (4-66)
Peace -
Peace,
The meaning of 2-54 can be used to support that killing was the punishment for Isrealis Blasphemers, as Arnab showed from Torah. I understood the meanining of this verse as you do untill Arnab showed us the Torah Punshment, then, I changed my understanding.
Let me give you another example from Quran were God shows that he could have commanded us to Kill ourselves when commetting Koffer, but He Chose not to due to our weakness (few of us would have obay the order)(
If We had ordered them to Kill themselves or to leave their homes, very few of them would have done it but if they had done what they were (actually) told, it would have been best for them, and would have gone farthest to strengthen their (faith). (4-66)
PeacePeace.
This isn't speaking of literally killing themselves either. The preceding verse (465) speaks of them making the prophet the judge between them in their argument regarding their beliefs - the best way to overcome that type of disagreement would be to kill our "pride/egos" and submit to what the messenger speaks from God, as the verse points out. This is explained in the following verses as well, where it speaks of the results of their actions had they done what could've been prescribed to them (suicide)
"...and We would have given them from Ourselves a great reward..." (al-Qur'an 467)
This could be speaking about in this life or the Hereafter. However, the next verse is clearly speaking of THIS LIFE, meaning we would still be living, which wouldn't be the case had we actually killed ourselves (committed suicide).
"...and guide them to a straight path." (al-Qur'an 46
According to the Scripture, this straight path is the way we should lead our lives in this life, and it will enable us to receive God's mercies in the Hereafter, God willing. If we literally committed suicide, we couldn't be guided to this straight path because we would be dead. So, obviously, the Scripture is referring to killing our pride/ego and submit to the message, and this would strengthen us. In fact, the disagreeing people (465) were not believers, according to the Scripture, and this is why they rejected the prophet's message. That's where verse 66 comes in
"And if We ordered them to kill their pride/egos or to leave their homes/dwellings, very few of them would have done it. But had they done what they were told, it would have been best for them and would have strengthened them." (al-Qur'an 466)
As rejecters of the message, they wouldn't submit to the message by literally killing themselves, they would prove their submission to it by ridding themselves of their pride and accepting it, submitting themselves to the prophet. So, I think their "homes/dwellings" were referring to their current state of disbelief - it would have strengthened them to be humble and abandon their disbelief, submitting to the message. This is the only way they could be rewarded by God and guided by Him to the "straight path"...
Peace.
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Peace,
The meaning of 2-54 can be used to support that killing was the punishment for Isrealis Blasphemers, as Arnab showed from Torah. I understood the meanining of this verse as you do untill Arnab showed us the Torah Punshment, then, I changed my understanding.
Let me give you another example from Quran were God shows that he could have commanded us to Kill ourselves when commetting Koffer, but He Chose not to due to our weakness (few of us would have obay the order)(
If We had ordered them to Kill themselves or to leave their homes, very few of them would have done it but if they had done what they were (actually) told, it would have been best for them, and would have gone farthest to strengthen their (faith). (4-66)
Peace"For that We prescribed to the children of Israel that whoever kills a nafs not for another nafs nor for corruption on the Earth is as if he killed all the people..." 532
so obviously, these divinely-inspired books must be somewhere within our grasp, so we can study,Peace.
You don't have to look further. They are incorporated in the qur'aan. The valid verses were copied to the qur'aan , the no more valid ones have been replaced by better ones (2106).
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Salam,
Samia and Ahmad Bilal,
You're misunderstanding comes from not reading the PREVIOUS scripture.
There is a very well known traditional Sufi story which illustrates the problem we are seeing in this thread.
An Elephant belonging to a traveling exhibition had been stabled near a town where no elephant had been seen before. Four curious citizens, hearing of the hidden wonder, went to see if they could get a preview of it. When they arrived at the stable they found that there was no light. The investigation therefore had to be carried out in the dark.
One, touching its trunk, thought that the creature must resemble a hose pipe;
the second felt an ear and concluded that it was a fan.
The third, feeling a leg, could liken it only to a living pillar;
and when the fourth put his hand on its back he was convinced that it was some kind of throne.
None could form the complete picture;
and of the part which each felt, he could only refer to it in terms of things which he already knew.
The result of the expedition was confusion.
Each was sure that he was right; none of the other townspeople could understand what had happened, what the investigators had actually experienced.
There are many versions of this story. This one is a retelling by Idries Shah
When you limit your resources and material you study (such as ONLY the Quran or ONLY the Torah) you do not understand the whole picture.
When you study ALL the scriptures....its as if you were given a LIGHT so that you can SEE the Elephant in the dark.
But still those who have only felt the ear, the trunk, the leg or the back will insist that those who have SEEN the elephant are wrong.
Salam,
Arnab -
Salam arnab. Some people dont want to see the elephant. These people believe they are superior because they have a hose.
They can cover the Torah and the Injeel, however Allah is not fooled by their covering. Allah knows what he recited to them, they will be judged by what they covered, they will be judged on what was recited to them.
Allah has sent down a glorious recitation.
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Salaam Arnab
Your analysis of the story of the elephant is up-side-down. Look at all of you who are trying to figure out what the torah is Has it ever existed, was it tampered with or was it pure, is it available and in our grasp or not, was it divine, what language is best to read it...those are the people in the dark trying to figure out what this "creature" is. On the other hand, the answer is very simple turn on the light (it is there...I mean the light). This light is described by God as "guidance to the righteous". You will find the necessary description of the elephant as far as you are concerned. End of story.When you study ALL the scriptures....its as if you were given a LIGHT so that you can SEE the Elephant in the dark.
God incorporated what is necessary and what we need of past scriptures in the qur'aan. The qur'aan is the guidance...the Light.
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Salaam Arnab
Your analysis of the story of the elephant is up-side-down. Look at all of you who are trying to figure out what the torah is Has it ever existed, was it tampered with or was it pure, is it available and in our grasp or not, was it divine, what language is best to read it...those are the people in the dark trying to figure out what this "creature" is. On the other hand, the answer is very simple turn on the light (it is there...I mean the light). This light is described by God as "guidance to the righteous". You will find the necessary description of the elephant as far as you are concerned. End of story.
God incorporated what is necessary and what we need of past scriptures in the qur'aan. The qur'aan is the guidance...the Light.Salam,
I took for granted that it would not be difficult to understand the story. I see from your post above that I was mistaken.
An Elephant belonging to a traveling exhibition had been stabled near a town where no elephant had been seen before. Four curious citizens, hearing of the hidden wonder, went to see if they could get a preview of it. When they arrived at the stable they found that there was no light. The investigation therefore had to be carried out in the dark.
The elephant represents scripture.
One, touching its trunk, thought that the creature must resemble a hose pipe;
the second felt an ear and concluded that it was a fan.
The third, feeling a leg, could liken it only to a living pillar;
and when the fourth put his hand on its back he was convinced that it was some kind of throne.Each person is only reading ONE part of scripture. In some the case of some people they ONLY read the Quran.
None could form the complete picture;
When one does not read ALL the scriptures, they cannot FULLY understand the information contained therein.
and of the part which each felt, he could only refer to it in terms of things which he already knew.
IF all you read is the Quran....you will try to find answers that the QURAN. But the QURAN itself tells you to look elsewhere The previous scriptures.
The result of the expedition was confusion.
Each was sure that he was right;Those who only read the OT are SURE they are RIGHT and everyone else is wrong.
Those who only read the QURAN are sure they are RIGHT and everyone else is wrong.But they are still confused on many points. Why? Because they are not SEEING the Elephant. They are just feeling around in the dark.
none of the other townspeople could understand what had happened, what the investigators had actually experienced.
"You follow NO GOOD until you KEEP UP the TORAH and INJEEL"
Salam,
Arnab -
Peace.
I agree with Samia - you've presented a backwards story regarding the Scripture. If you read through the verse of al-Qur'an, it says that it has the details for everything, it is complete, and it explains all things
"And We placed shields around their hearts, to prevent them from understanding it, and deafness in their ears. And when you preach your Lord, using al-Qur'an alone, they run away in aversion." (al-Qur'an 1746)
Study the Scripture of al-Qur'an where it mentions these things (6114-115; 1689; 638; 12111), and you'll understand. None of these verses tell us to study these other books also - 1746 says "AL-QUR'AN ALONE", which means we need no other book to complete our picture. Al-Qur'an is even called "the Light" in the Scriptures. God has incorporated everything we need regarding Scripture inside al-Kitaab, which is why it confirms the previous Scriptures. We don't need to study the "Gospels" of Esa to learn about him, not because al-Qur'an gives us all the details of his life, but because al-Qur'an gives us ALL THE DETAILS WE NEED regarding his life and message. All that other stuff in unnecessary, especially considering the fact that the Gospels that we have (Biblical accounts of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John) are all MAN-MADE BOOKS of Esa's life, similar to reading sunna and hadeeths.
Peace.