Peace,

I personally believe that this is the case. Allah gives us many signs of this. Look at the creation of man. The Qur'an illustrates the stages of embryology, yet it is all done by Allahs command of "Be". Also, look at the creation of our Universe. Everything is in stages.

Peace

Peace,

I am the only Muslim in my family from a Protestant background. I am also Korean descent.

Peace

Peace,

I think we need to define what a slave is according to Islam. In Islam, I'd rather be a slave compared to other occupations.

Peace

Peace Aryan Warrior, redsulpher

Realize that the Trinity the Quran talks about is FAR different from the Trinity we see. The Trinity the Quran talks about has God, Jesus and Mary and describes it where God is considered equal to those other two. That there is pure polytheism, and they worship them as three separate beings. The Trinity we see has God, Jesus and The Holy Spirit in modern times. That has God who is above all and infinite and eternal like we know and Jesus is like a human puppet who is controlled move by move, word by word to transmit where God would speak through that body to the people. Thus that is monotheism still as the Jesus they recognize is just a shell that talks to them while knowing and only worshiping one God in the end. That is how I believe the modern Trinity works at least (though I may be wrong, might wanna double check with a Christian)

Regardless if the Quran was talking about only a super small handful and Jews and Christians who aren't like that, then it would not have mentioned them repeatedly over and over as being monotheists regardless of the fact. Otherwise why not throw in that small sect of that old Egyptian religion that turned monotheist for a while (though it might have been completely dead by then) or frankly any religion that is Pagan might have had people that only believed in one despite what their religion says?

Also note that the Quran never once calls them polytheists or idol-worshippers and only as People of the Book. No such title was branded on them once even if they their beliefs are off as they still worship only one God irregardlessly.

Whether the Trinity in the Qur'an is talking about Father, Son, Holy Ghost or Father, Son, Mary it is all the same. The Qur'an doesn't explicitly name many things, but based on all the verses in the Qur'an, using ijtihad, we get our answer. It's like you telling me that it doesn't say that smoking is haram when the Qur'an states that one should not seek his/her own destruction.

Also, the Qur'an doesn't necessarily say that the Trinity is only the Father, Son, Mary version. It just says stop saying Three in general.

If you referred to the ayat that I posted earlier, the Qur'an explicitly says they have committed shirk. What's your definition of shirk if it is not polytheism?

@ a muslim

agreed - we are not to create partners with God - from that perspective, one can refer to the Trinity as incorrect, but the Trinity itself is not explicitly mentioned in the Quran. I try to give Christians some leeway as they always defend the Trinity as a monotheistic concept, but I have never understood how they achieve that. Perhaps they have lost the true meaning of this doctrine and the Quran is correcting a misunderstanding on the part of Christians regarding Jesus' spiritual status. While the Quran says that it is incorrect to say that Allah is none but the Messiah, it does not preclude the other way around. I am not saying that Jesus is Allah, but perhaps something akin to Ibn al-Arabi's concept of the "Perfect man" can be resorted to - the notion that one adopts the attributes of Allah so perfectly from a human perspective that he is "god-like" and thus viewed as one with Him. The Quran refers to Jesus as "blameless" after all. But perhaps I am delving too far into Sufi territory here.....
Of course, the notion of Jesus being worshipped is condemned by the Quran (as evidenced by God's questioning of Jesus and Mary on the day of Judgement and Him asking them if they authorized for them to be worshipped, a charge which they deny).

I see what you are trying to say however that is not in line with the Trinitarian creed. They state that Jesus is co-eternal with the Father and Holy Spirit. If one doesn't exist, the other cease to exist. The Father is a person, the Son is a person, and the Holy Spirit is a person. However, they are not three persons but one person.

Peace

Peace MaverickMonotheist, Aryan Warrior

And yet you got this

"And the Jews said Ezra is the son of God and the Christians said The Messiah is the son of God. That is the saying with their mouths. They conform with the sayings of those who were ungrateful before. God took the offensive. How they are misled! They took to themselves their learned Jewish scholars and their monks as lordsother than Godand the Messiah son of Mary. And they were only commanded to worship The One God. There is no god but He! Glory be to Him above the partners they ascribe! " (930-31)"

Yet both of them are called the People of the Book. They are both disbelievers no matter what, yet God has deemed them as exceptions in various verses.

Verily! Those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, whoever believes in God and the Last Day and do righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve . (262)

Remember they wouldn't count as believers cause they don't accept the Quran otherwise they'd have converted therefore they are the exception because in the end they are still monotheists no matter how you look at it.

Peace Aryan Warrior, amuslim,

The beauty of the Quran is that it does not generalize for all Christians and Jews, but gives some specifics that help determine which Christians are monotheists. In terms of the phrase "son of God", you probably know that this is a Semitic idiom for a righteous person. There is a difference between a Christian who refers to Jesus as the son of God (in other words, the most righteous person to have lived), and understands it in its original sense. Then there is the Christian that refers to Jesus as the son of God, and is either ignorant or dismissive of the original meaning. Such a Christian would probably have no problem WORSHIPPING Jesus as the son of God (referencing your quotation of 930-31). In such a case, it would be difficult to call such a Christian a monotheist, but as always God knows best. )

I think a lot goes into a person refusing to accept the message of the Quran, particularly for Christians in the West who would otherwise identify with its message. I personally think that a Christian or Jew who does not worship anyone other than God, and does not accept the word of their pastor/priest/rabbi as infallible (i.e. papal infallibility, etc) is probably ok.

Peace,
Joel

Refer to what Maverick stated.

If you want to abrogate parts of the Qur'an, like the Sunnis do, then that is your business. All I know is that God says that Trinitarians (ie. Christians that say Jesus is God, not Unitarians) are destined for the hellfire. Does this bother you? If any person that claims himself/herself a Muslim and worships Muhammad as God (like the Trinitarians), there abode is the same place.

God says that he will forgive anything but shirk. There's no way around it.

God knows best.
Peace

Peace Aryan Warrior,

Though i've seen them make it seem like Jesus is more a puppet or avatar of God, which means in other words he is completely controlled and God speaks through him and such and thus supposedly what makes him God, but not actually The infinte and eternal God that all know and they know. Thus "The Father" is still higher for them and Jesus is just a puppet.

That is what I always seem to see, but I don't know I may be wrong.

Regardless, the good thing is that Unitarianism seems to be on a rise ^_^

Again

572

Indeed, the disbelievers (kafara) are those that say "Allah is the Messiah, Son of Mary"

This comes out of their mouths. Their missionaries preach this. I don't see why people want to try and work around it and say, "Well they really don't believe it in this way" or "The Qur'an doesn't specifically speak against Trinity." Why do we need to make the Deen of God palatable to everyone. It is crystal clear that their belief is only destined to Hellfire. The verse continues

Certainly those who set up partners with Allah, indeed God forbids paradise for them and their abode is the hellfire.

None of this hurts us or God in any way, but we we shouldn't be apologetic about what God says. I am also hopeful for a rise in Unitarianism, that brings them closer to Submission and away from the polytheists.

Peace

Peace redsulphur,

"Student of Allah" is correct - the meaning of kafir includes the concept of concealment as this is implicit in the literal meaning of the Arabic word - a farmer who buries seeds in the earth is a type of kafir. In the context of the Quran, the term is used with reference to pagans who have heard the truth but deny it - not with reference to any monotheistic tradition.

Various "scholars" who deliberately hide the words of the Quran from the people can be referred to as kafirs in my view. They knew the truth of what the Quran actually says on an issue, but deliberately conceal them.

The Quran does not condemn the Trinity - it condemns the notion of referring to God as "the third of the three". No articulation of the Trinity says that. The Quran does not even condemn the notion of saying God is "one of the three". Also, the Quran condemns the notion of referring to God as ONLY the Messiah (Jesus) - no Christian says that either.

The Qur'an doesn't condemn creating partners with God?

The "pagans" of Arabia believed in Allah. They ascribed daughters to him. How is this any different than what Trinitarians do? If you look at it in certain ways, what the Trinitarians do is far worse!

Peace

Peace,

Allah has no wants. Whether you get punished or not does nothing to God.

However, we are given guidance so that we can live a peaceful life and create a peaceful society. There are incentives (Paradise) so that we accomplish this. There is also the promise of punishment to deter us from the path of destruction. Basically, it is similar to the incentives.

Now, if God makes a statement, why would He go back on it? That would make him a liar, and therefore that wouldn't be God anymore. Remember that the Quran uses both allegories as well as literal meanings.

As far as other people are concerned, why are you even concerned with them? Not even the Prophet Muhammad knew what his outcome in the hereafter would be. The relationship is between the person and God and they will be all judged justly. Be concerned with yourself

Peace

Peace

This is not correct. Jesus' name in Greek in Iesous, which is the same name the Jews used in their translation of the Torah into Greek for the name Joshua. In fact, the NT epistle to the Hebrews uses the same greek name, letter for letter, as the Septuagint.

Allowances should be made for the changes into different languages. Doing otherwise is simply poor scholarship.

That is why I stated that people will disagree. I was trying to make a point by referencing a lecture that I saw.

Peace

Peace

So.. This is Cristian actual view of the facts, but dont forget

were they may interpret "For instance, some fled before the
invasions of the Egyptians, others fled before the
invasion of the Assyrians, still others fled the
invasion of the Babhylonians, and others fled during
the invasions of the Greeks and the Romans. As these
tribes fled into Arabia over a period of at least 2000
years, they brought with them traditions from their
particular period of history

SHCOOLARS think that they just moved from Palestine to Arabia and then Palestine again? no..obvously not, no arqueological profs indeed.. they just trying to fit false translation of Bible where MISRM is translated as Egypt.. wich is also a long time fabrication and NO KING OF EGYPT was Called FIRWON..
Firwon is not a title to kings of Egypt, but a PROPER name like MARYAM, ISA, Nils(you) and Duarte(me).

PROPER NAMES OF PEOPLE AND PLACES MUST BE RESPECTED! Or we will be wondering in the Deserts of Mistranslations & false concept.. sun

Thanks for reading all
group pr

Reminds me of a lecture that I saw with Ahmed Deedat. He was stating that the Christians have no right translating the names of the Prophets into a latinized version. He talked about how the Christians changed Jesus' name from Esau to Jesus. Now I know some of you here might disagree with that (NOMAD, Pazuzu, etc.) but I am just illustrating the point. Similarly, I think the same should be said of the Qur'an just like NOMAD mentioned. If the Qur'an was indeed revealed in Arabic, we cannot translate these words. It must stay in the pure form that it was revealed. If we translate it, then it becomes subject to man's creation and is no longer God's unadulterated word. God knows best.

Peace

Peace

One of the biggest dissappointments I had wth Koranist is their trampling with the Koranic verses when they translate but end up trying to interpret by placing words in paragraphs that is not part of the Arabic text. This made me realize that religion can often be pushed by agendas. That is why the only people who can translate the Koran are people who do not believe its divinity. This way they can translate it linguistically and leave the interpretation for the reader.

We are VERY luck we have the original Arabic text or else we would have had different versions each trying to push an agenda.

Its a very unethical practice and shows the lack of understanding between tranlsation and interpretation.

While what you say is true to some extents, we have to keep in mind that the Arabic is compounded with many different meanings. Hence, one word can relate an entire sentence. That is the beauty of Arabic that we do not necessarily have in English and therefore it should be translated to the best of the translators abilities. Dr. Shabbir even states in the opening of his rendition that it is not a literal/word-by-word translation.

http//www.linguisticmiracle.com/language

Peace

Peace,

Here is how Dr. Shabbir conveys this verse and maybe it might help you

2258 Think of the one who adamantly argued with Abraham about his Lord
because God had given him power. Abraham said to him, ?My Lord is He Who
gives life and causes death." He answered, ?I give life and cause death.?
Abraham said, ?God makes the sun rise from the East; make it rise from the
West.? Thereupon the rejecter of the truth remained dumbfounded. And God
does not guide people who choose to do wrong.

2259 (Later on, came another king in the dynasty of Nimrods, his name,
Nebuchadnezzar, 630-562 BC. He invaded Jerusalem, oppressed Israelites and
enslaved them. One hundred years of tribulation passed before King Cyrus of
Persia liberated them and reinstated them back in Jerusalem. This history
bears a lesson for posterity.)

The similitude of this history is that someone passes by the ruins of a town
and wonders if that town could ever come back to life again, and God causes
him to die for a hundred years and then revives him. He thinks it was only a
matter of a day or a part of it. He even finds his food, drink, and donkey
standing beside him. God creates you in the wombs of your mothers, in bone
and flesh. And when the matter became clear to him, he said, ?I know now that
God is Able to do all things. God is the all Powerful Designer of His laws and
He does all things in the Universe in duly appointed measure.?

2260 Abraham wanted to understand the law of Revival of nations. God asked
him if he believed that it were possible. Abraham said he believed but that he
wanted a practical example to educate his heart and mind. God told him to
take four birds and train them in a kind manner, and then to leave them far
apart on separate hilltops. And then call them; they will come in quickly. Then
know that God is Exalted in Power, Wise.

Peace

Peace,

After I found out about the assembly, I stopped doing the ritual salat. I was a bit confused as to how to perform the ritual salat without it being namaz from the Persians. It was a big mistake for me. I started to do the ritual one again and it helps a lot in having taqwa for Allah. Not saying that you can't still have taqwa but that having prescribed times in the day to remember Allah helps.

From what I gather from the Qur'an (and from what others here too also accept) it is 3 times a day. If you go to the free-minds homepage and click on the "What is Salat?" link would be a good start. I also incorporate the rukoo and follow similar pattern to the sunnis (because of the one shown on submission.org). I say a couple of ayat (such as ayat Al-kursi) from the Quran after Al-Fatiha, which is before the rukoo. I have keep each salat equivalent to two rakaats.

When not doing salat (rest of the day), I repeat "La ilaha illallah" to myself to try and keep taqwa and be thankful for the bounties that he has given us.

Peace

Peace,

I remember watching a show (I think it was Life of the Prophet Muhammad on BBC last year) and they mentioned about how the cube was a common thing throughout arabia. Interesting to see you point this out.

Peace

Peace,

I personally don't, but that doesn't mean that I think that people that say that they saw "something" are necessarily lying. Student posted some good reasoning behind what could be happening to you. I have experienced lucid dreaming myself and it is pretty fun. You can do whatever you want, basically the whole world is yours. I have also experienced having complete awareness of my surroundings while asleep and with my eyes closed. I have many weird experiences. One thing that I have quite frequently are vibrations that gradually gets stronger and louder. I have no idea what it is but I have become accostumed to it.

The mind is a powerful thing, just look at schizos. Regarding exorcisms, I think that is fake. They used to do exorcisms on people that had other problems that they ascribed to demons. They now apparently have a criterion but I still don't trust it. If these things actually exist, they don't impede my belief in God whatsoever.

Peace

Peace Confused,

We all have hard times and it's great to know that there are others thinking of us, even if we don't know them personally. I pray that you find a way out of your problems. Be mindful of God (it's hard in times of trouble) and may you resolve this in the best manner.

Peace

Peace Hoppean,

Peace,

It seems that for a "Quranist" you have alot of Islamic baggage 930 "Waqalati alyahoodu AAuzayrun ibnu Allahi waqalati alnnasara almaseehu ibnu Allahi thalika qawluhum biafwahihim yudahioona qawla allatheena kafaroo min qablu qatalahumu Allahu anna yufakoona" "And the Jews say Ezra is God's son and the Christians say Christ is God's son, these are (mere) sayings of their mouths, they (merely) imitate the saying of those who suppressed the truth before them, may God destroy them, how perverted are their minds." (my own translation).

582 "Latajidanna ashadda alnnasi AAadawatan lillatheena amanoo alyahooda waallatheena ashrakoo walatajidanna aqrabahum mawaddatan lillatheena amanoo allatheena qaloo inna nasara thalika bianna minhum qisseeseena waruhbanan waannahum la yastakbiroona" Most assuredly you will find those strongest in enmity among men to the believers to be the Jews and those who are idolaters; and most assuredly you will find those closest in love to those who believe, those who are saying We are Christians, this is because among them priests and men of God, and because they are not arrogant." (my own translation)

Looks to me like the Nasara (or Nazarenes as you call them) do in fact call Christ ibn Allah, and yet are explicitly contrasted with Mushriks (allatheena ashrakoo). Perhaps you should familiarize yourself more with Quranic theology (rather than Islamic theology), such as the difference between walad and ibn Allah, in the Quran, before you throw out anathemas left and right.

Thanks for trying to correct me. However, to say that ALL of them share these views would be wrong as well. For example, one can say that Muslims believe that Jesus is born of a virgin. Does this take all Muslims into consideration? Similarly, there are beliefs are the idea that Muhammad got the 50 salat down to 5. Al Buraq. Etc.

To say that ALL Jews call Ezra God's son is a fallacy as well. From my own understanding, I take it to mean that there are those that are Jews and those that are Nazarenes that ascribe such things, yet it doesn't take all of them into account. God makes many statements. God makes statements about Arabs, Jews, etc. Are we to take it that God is making a general statement or that He is saying that each and everyone of them are like that?

Since you pointed out my mistake, care to address the question that I posed mmkhan? What's your opinion on it? And saying that Christ is God, is associating partners, therefore that is shirk.

Peace

Salaam amuslim,

If you are referring to Christians and Jews by saying people of the Book, then surely you cannot marry them. Because as you mentioned they do shirk with Allah.

May Allah increase us all in knowledge and guide us all to His true path pr
mmKhan

Peace mmkhan,

I take it then that to your understanding that this ayat in the Qur'an is speaking of them after they revert to Islam?

55

I know that a lot of the Hadither's find no problem marrying the polytheists because of this ayat and also they claim that Muhammad married Maria the Copt. So does that mean that even the Unitarian Christians are off limits?

Peace

Peace mmkhan,

How would you say that Muslims are able to marry People of the Book (Monotheists, not those that commit blatant shirk)? Would they have to first revert to Islam and then it would be permissible to marry them? If that's the case, why even mention that the People of the Book are able to be betrothed to us?

The Nazarenes are not those that say that God has a son or that God is the Messiah. Those that say such shirk are with the rest of the mushrik, similar to the Meccans that believed in Allah but still committed shirk weren't Muslims. How much of the beliefs from the People of the Book have to be in line with ours?

Peace

Peace Pazuzu,

This is my first time reading your posts. I'm grateful that I have stumbled across them today as they are very enlightening. Thank you for all of your dedication into bringing the truth out from what the Yahudis have forged and from what the Muslims blindly accept. May Allah shower you with blessings and may He allow you to continue to bring sight to the blind.

Peace