Excuse me, but you seem to be mixing to appear 'correct'.

Again, you seem to have been diluted by the other individual, there are more than ONE afternoon prayer.

Al-Salawati owns or governs Al-Salati Al-Wusta, Afternoon Prayers are a collective of Salawat.

In addition, Al Wusta has a Definite Article attached thus rendering the meaning ALL INCLUSIVE, NON EXCLUSIVE denoting EVERY meaning is relevant to the word 'Wusta', no meaning is excluded.

Definite Article , used to give the meaning of ?Most, All, Complete, Maximum, Whole, and to denote comprehensiveness, all aspects or categories of a subject, or to denote perfection and includes all degrees and grades.

---

Likewise, We made you a balanced nation / ommatan wasatan / , that you be a witnesses over people, and the Messenger be a witness over yourselves

wasatan is a verbal noun NOT an adjective, nor a definite noun(?), Al-Wusta is a different word

'middle nation'?

Peace
Mixing??? What do you mean?
There is no afternoon prayer. Afternoon in arabic is asr and there is no prayer in asr.
Then you say afternoon prayers are a collective of salawat. I don't believe that you yourself believe that. Definite article or not it still is singular genetive. Ask any arabspeaking true arab.
Wusta and wasat is the same word but in different forms. Its like seal and sealed. Or a kill and killed. Same ground meaning.

Peace

Again Al-Salati is Plural, in the Genitive Case, the predicate is Al-Wusta, again Plural....Afternoon Prayers, period NOT ONE 'midday' prayer.

Its grammatically singular but Semantically Plural, meaning its application and implementation has multiple elements, units, in this instance Multiple Timings (i.e. afternoon timings).

Peace
No, Al-salati is singular genitive and the Al-salawati is plural genitive and they are only genitive because they are after a preposition.

Peace

Peace,

I know it doesn't use the word "especially", and this is already noted. However, what I said is it conveys especiality. It literally says, "Guard the prayers and the middle prayer..." Now, unless this is forming a concept of especiality, this statement is illogical, since the middle prayer would obviously be a prayer too (part of the "prayers"/salawaat)... You can't say, "Get the dogs and the black dog..." This is illogical and redundant, since the black dog is part of the group of dogs you mentioned in the first place. The only way you could convey the message while still forming a separation of the two subjects is if you based a conclusion of especiality (i.e. "Get the dogs, especially the black dog...&quot, which is what is done in the Qur'an regarding the 'salawaat' and the 'salaat al wusta'. Since the 'salaat al wusta' is one of the 'salawaat'/prayers, it must be conveying especiality, not general separation...

Peace,

Ahmad

Peace
"Guard the prayers and the middle prayer" is not illogic and is perfect as it is written. Prayers meaning in generally. No problem at all.

Peace

Peace
Still the word wusta only means middle.
No, Lane has quoted "mots excellent" as a possible translation of wusta.

Penrise also proposes "the more worthy" for awsatu/wusta.

Peace

Peace

Peace
The same word is used in another verse in the Quran and still only meaning "middle".

Quran sura 2 verse 143;

Thus We have appointed you a middle nation, that ye may be witnesses against mankind, and that the messenger may be a witness against you. And We appointed the qiblah which ye formerly observed only that We might know him who followeth the messenger, from him who turneth on his heels. In truth it was a hard save for those whom Allah guided. But it was not Allah's purpose that your faith should be in vain, for Allah is Full of Pity, Merciful toward mankind.

Peace

Peace MTR,

rotfl Okay...

What I said was a mis-statement. What I meant to say is the word "wa"/and is not used in the verse to separate it from the "salawaat". Since it conveys especiality, then the "salaat al wusta"/middle prayer is still part of the rest of the prayers/"salawaat". If you conclude it by your reasoning, then "salawaat" can't be referring to prayers; it would have to be something completely separate and different from "salaat", which is NOT the case. This middle prayer is obviously being given special significance, giving an accurate translation of 2238 as

Guard the prayers, and/especially the middle prayer...

I'm speaking what I know, not what I think... How can YOU tell ME to speak what I know when you're claiming that "wusta" means "afternoon"? You need to speak what you know, not what you think. And you need to get rid of that misleading dictionary you keep using...

Peace,

Ahmad

Peace
You say that salawat cant be referring to prayers. Yet it says prayers wich means prayers. It not only can be referring to prayers but it is referring to prayers.

Peace

Peace,

First of all, the word "wa"/and is not included there (i.e. "and the middle prayer&quot. This is wrong, because this sets the "salaat al wusta" apart from the others, even though it's part of them. Still, it gives especiality, so it can be translated as, "Guard your prayers, especially the middle prayer..." Now, my question for you is this How often are the believers advised to observe this middle prayer? Do they do it everyday? Or do they do it once, in the middle of their lifetime? This is how you determine the time period of being mentioned in this verse; if "salaat al wusta" is speaking about DAILY observance, then "salawaat" is also talking about DAILY observance. And the only way you can consider "salawaat" being observed daily is if there are at least three prayers per day...

Peace,

Ahmad

Actually the word wa/and is the only word written in arabic instead of especially. Again here it is in correct english translation;

Guard the prayers and the middle prayer. This shows the true meaning wich is prayers in generally and the middle prayer.

Peace

Peace,

rotfl I know exactly what I mean, and it's not hard to understand at all. God willing, Allah will guide us to the truth... What I was referring to is the continuation of the verse by adding especiality to "salaat al wusta". Since "salaat al wusta" must be observed EVERYDAY, that means we must also observe the "salawaat" EVERYDAY. What applies to one applies to the other. If the verse said this, it's giving the same concept

Keep the salawaat on Tuesday, especially the salaat at 3pm...

This statement clearly implies that the "salaat at 3pm" is occurring on TUESDAY, just like the "salawaat". Just because it doesn't specifically state that we must observe this "salaat at 3pm on Tuesday", it doesn't mean that's not the implication. This is the exact same case with "salaat al wusta". That phrase is SPECIFIC. This middle salaat must be observed everyday. Therefore, the implication is that the THREE OR MORE PRAYERS/salawaat must also be observed everyday.

If you based "salawaat" to mean "all the prayers during your entire lifetime", this would form an illogical conclusion. First of all, since it gives especiality to the "salaat al wusta", placing this in the midst of these would not imply a time but a period of life. The mention of a "salaat al wusta" would be made to mean "prayer in the middle of your lifetime", which is inconsistent, since we have no idea how long our lifetime is. The only way "salaat al wusta" could effectively be classified as a daily middle prayer, then "salawaat" must also refer to a group of daily prayers.

Peace,

Ahmad

Peace
Actually in arabic it says; Guard the prayers and the middle prayer. It doesnt say especially. So its just in generally to observe prayers and also the middle prayer. Just like that.

Peace

Please have a look on this page from the Lane's Lexicon (right column)
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume8/00000195.pdf
You will see that it wasatun does not only mean "middle".

And in this page (left column)
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume8/00000196.pdf
Lane quotes some opinions about the meaning of as-salati al-wusta.

Peace

Peace
Still the word wusta only means middle.

Peace

Peace MTR,

You're still not getting what I'm saying...

That's what I've been saying all along. The mentions of "salaat" in those verses are used as generalized plural nouns, even though the regular noun "salaat" is singular. That's why, when the Qur'an speaks of uphold the salaat, it's not necessarily speaking of one individual salaat; it's speaking of general salaat as a whole.

This is where you keep getting it confused. We are speaking about the specific noun "SALAAT". When you base the singular usages of them the way you're referencing them in these other verses, yes, they are singular usages, but they're not NOUNS. They're used in these instances (i.e. "saalla", "saalli", and "yusalli&quot as VERBS. You can't say, "Remember the SAALLA"; this is grammatically incorrect. We are referring specifically to the Arabic word "salaat" used as a NOUN. Throughout the scriptures, "salaat" is used as both a singular noun and a general/irregular plural noun.

In this case, "salawaat" is not used as an indicator; it's used to refer to the prayers themselves. It says

"Keep the PRAYERS (i.e. THREE OR MORE), especially the MIDDLE PRAYER (i.e. ONE)..."

This is a pretty basic explanation. The middle prayer ("salaat al wusta&quot is included in the other prayers ("salawaat" it is just given especiality. This is a clear statement stating that there are at least three daily obligatory salaat observances (i.e. morning-->noon-->night or night-->midnight-->morning). Now, if the "midnight" salaat observance is implied to not be obligatory, then this implies that this "middle prayer" is referring to noon; if the "midnight" salaat is obligatory, then this is the "middle prayer"/salaat al wusta.

Peace,

Ahmad

Peace
Actually the correct translation is " Guard you prayers and the middle prayer". As you can see here is looks even more clear that salawat is meant in general here.

Peace

Assalaam Alaikum @JM

No need to rehash these points.....

In the references given, 2.3, 2.45, 2.110 & 7.170 Salata is plural.

Salata

Is a Irregular Plural Noun, the root pattern Sad-Lam-Waw has been 'broken' with the tarmubutah

Salata is grammatically Singular but semantically Plural (See 'broken plural' rule)

The following are SINGULAR references to Salah

So he did not verify it / saddaqa and did not SALLA / PRAY.

salla (Singular, Verbal Form II, Perfect) someone prayed
salli ( Singular, Verbal Form II, Perfect) You pray
yusalli (Singular, Verbal Form II, Imperfect) He is praying

PLURAL reference to Salah

They are those on whom (Descend) blessings from Allah, and Mercy, and they are the ones that receive guidance.

Al-Baqarah 2.238] Be preserver over the SALAWAT / PRAYERS

salawatun / salawati(Plural Noun, Used in Nominative & Genitive Case) Prayers, Blessings

Dictionary of the Holy Quran page 320

salaatayn?, I dont believe thats even a word.

Peace
Both examples of salawat are meant in generally

Peace

Could you bring evidence for this form a dictionary, please ?

Peace

Peace
Salat can be either generally or one.

Peace

Ahmad, You dont get it

They are PLURAL....Genitive and Construct Case.....ALL PLURAL NOUNS!

Wusta is a Predicate!

"nominal sentences." Those are the sentences which begin with a noun word. The part of the sentence that is before the hidden (i.e. the subject) is called mubtada'< the start. The part after the As-Salawati & As-Salati is the predicate, Al-Wusta in Arabic khabar = the predicate.

Salawat is PLURAL As-Salati is PLURAL the adjective is Al-Wusta, that defines Salati, When? Midday How Long? Thru the Afternoon How many? Asr, Maghrib, Isha

Do some research Ahmad..

Peace
Still wusta means only middle.

Peace

Peace MTR,

Wow, calm down, buddy. I was just joking, and I made that pretty clear when I made the statement about 2Pac... ) You need to take a seat, and let your blood pressure go down a little...

This is wrong, brother, WRONG. The Arabic word "wusta" doesn't have anything to do with time periods and midday segments. The word "wusta"/middle can be applied to anything. It doesn't mean noon, midday, or anything like that. It simply means "MIDDLE". It can also be translated as "best" or "balanced", but that doesn't apply in this context. So, if the scriptural passage says "salaat al WUSTA", it simply means the salaat observance in the MIDDLE of the other ones. Since there are two other mandatory salaat times described in the Qur'an (i.e. morning and evening), then the MIDDLE part between these two would be (1) noon and (2) midnight. Both are directly in the middle of the other two prescribed times... Sunni Moslems falsely attributed this word "wusta" to mean "afternoon" because it is in the MIDDLE of their 5 daily salaat, actually being "salaat al asr". But in reality, "wusta" doesn't have anything to do with the afternoon at all...

This is incorrect. Yes, "salawaat" is plural, meaning three or more salaat observances. However, "salaat" is SINGULAR, whether the context sets it as "salaati" or "salaata"; it's the same thing. The phrase "al-wusta" means "the middle". So, "salaat al wusta" literally means "prayer in the middle". You don't need a dictionary to translate this, brother.

SALAAT = prayer (singular, one)
AL = the
WUSTA = middle

AL = the
SALAWAAT = prayers (plural, three or more)
SALAATAYN = prayers (plural, two)

Now, can you determine what the message of 2238 is saying?

Peace,

Ahmad

Peace
You forgot to put
Salat = generally
Salawat = generally

Peace

Peace,

This may very well be the case. However, IN THIS INSTANCE, it's not correct. Since "alsalaat alwusta" is referring to one particular salaat observances in a ONE DAY PERIOD, the "alsalawaat" must be talking about a group of salaat observances during the same ONE DAY PERIOD. It's not necessarily about general plural and singular nouns; it's about how the word is used in this instance... I've never seen where "salawaat" is used as a general plural noun, especially since it's already a plural noun. Now, can it be used generally in a plural sense (i.e. "Uphold the salawaat&quot? Yes, of course. But in this case, it's not used this way, and I haven't seen anywhere else in the Qur'an where it's used this way either. The generalized plural form is always the singular usage (i.e. "Uphold the salaat&quot. That's why this can be measured in the setting of one day. If I said this, it would imply the same grammatical message

Remember to take out the dogs, especially the black dog, and feed them when they come inside the house.

If you're referring to the dogs being taken in a general sense, then this would be grammatically incorrect, since no time period is relayed for the black dog. However, if you're speaking about taking out the black dog TODAY, this implies that all the other dogs must also be taken out the TODAY. It's the same way in the case of 'salaat al wusta'; since the passage is referring to observing the 'salaat al wusta'/middle prayer EVERYDAY, it's implying that you must also observe the 'salawaat'/three or more prayers EVERYDAY.

Peace,

Ahmad

Peace
First you say "in a one day period" and then you say everyday. I believe that you are not sure what you mean. Of course its not one day period. It means to also to be quardian of the middle prayer all the days of our life.
You can use plural both as specific nr or generally and here it means generally.
I have already showed you another place in the Quran where salawat is used as in generally.

Peace

Assalaam Alaikum

@Ahmad, your so myopic you cant tell the difference between a metaphor and a rhetorical statement...sitdown, take a break

@JM...I dont believe you about Hans Wehr, so now what?

Lastly, you folks are so stuck from the Free Minds Arabic 'translation' which lacks the Harakat, that you cant derive correct, gender, tense and number.

Wusta is an ADJECTIVE describing the 'plurality' of the Midday, After Noon Salah....

Just in case you forgot Midday starts at Noon and continues throughout the AFTERNOON.

Again its part of the case construct....

Salawat is PLURAL As-Salati is PLURAL the adjective is Al-Wusta, that defines Salati, When? Midday How Long? Thru the Afternoon How many? Asr, Maghrib, Isha

thats simple grammar in ANY language

Peace
Wusta simply means middle.

Peace

The meaning of wusta has already been discussed in numerous topics.
For example http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=7727.0

Please use the seach function of the forum.

Peace

Peace
Theres no need to search in the forum because the arabic word wusta means simply middle. Its even use in other place in the Quran;

Quran 2 verse 143;

(3) Thus We have appointed you a middle nation, that ye may be witnesses against mankind, and that the messenger may be a witness against you. And We appointed the qiblah which ye formerly observed only that We might know him who followeth the messenger, from him who turneth on his heels. In truth it was a hard save for those whom Allah guided. But it was not Allah's purpose that your faith should be in vain, for Allah is Full of Pity, Merciful toward mankind.

Peace

Ahmad, stop 'frontin', your not that tight....I dont know what community your from in the States, but Im out on the Westside, we dont 'front', we are serious about ours, dont get it twisted, I can stretch you out, where you wont have any get back....I already asked you a basic question in another thread, you started scratchin your head and pullin at the back of your trousers....

alwusta midmost, middle most;occupy the middle position, AFTERNOON
Hans Wehr Arabic English Dictionary 4th Edition page 1250

Now write the publisher of Hans Wehr and tell them that you dont want 'wusta' to mean 'Afternoon'.

If you are successful I will take my Sarf lessons from you.

Peace
Actually wusta means middle. Asr means afternoon.

Peace

Peace MTR,

hmm Again, I see that it is you who don't know what you're talking about, brother. Your theory would make a lot of sense if "wusta" actually meant midday, afternoon, or anything like that. Unfortuately for you, though, IT DOESN'T. The Arabic word "wusta" means "middle". So, "alsalaat alwusta" literally means MIDDLE PRAYER, not afternoon prayer, midday prayer, or anything like that. It ("wusta&quot means MIDDLE. In order for there to be a "middle" salaat, there must be at THREE SALAAT OBSERVANCES (based on an odd number). Plus, it would make sense if the "asr" or "maghrib" salaat observances were mentioned in the Qur'an as being in the "middle"; but unfortunately for you, THEY'RE NOT... Also, the word "salawaat" is the plural form of "salaat"; your statement that it means "Places, Timings & Actions of Salat" is completely false. You need to get rid of that Arabic dictionary, brother, seriously. It's misguiding you...

Peace,

Ahmad

Peace
Middle means in the middle of day (yaom) between the day (nahar) and night (layl) wich is the night prayer (isha).

Peace

Ahmad let me assist you, because you dont know what your talking about...

in the Genitive, meaning Salaawati / , plural noun, meaning "Places, Timings & Actions of Salat' 'governs' Al-Salati Al-Wusta / , plural noun meaning 'After Noon, Midday Salah", again in the Genitive

This is so simple, Salaawati / is the 'box' referencing ALL the Prayers with there respective timings, movements and places. Al-Salati Al-Wusta / is in the 'box' with the other Salah.

In addition, there is more than ONE 'After Noon' Salah, Asr, Maghrib & Isha are scheduled 'After Noon'!

Again, In those parts of the world where its daylight for 24 hours for 6 months, the 'plurality' of Al-Salati Al-Wusta / , would continue to sustain their scheduled Salah timings for Asr, Maghrib & Isha.

Peace
There are only two prayers per day.

Peace

Peace Hpesc,

It doesn't say "salawaat" in general... Let's look at the passage in the Qur'an

You shall consistently observe the prayers ("salawaat&quot, the middle prayer ("alsalaat alwusta&quot, and devote yourselves to Allah. (223

Now, this emphasis on "salawaat" can't be general because if that was the case, then "salaat al-wusta" would be redundant. This shows a clear distinction between "salawaat" and "salaat al-wusta". When placing them side by side, even in translation, it is grammatically incorrect to say, "Observe the prayers throughout your life, especially the middle prayer..." unless both of them are general plurals or unless both of them are singular. Therefore, since the term "alsalaat alwusta" is referring to a distinct salaat observance in ONE DAY, then the term "salawaat" must also be referring to ONE DAY. Since "alsalaat alwusta" is expected to be observed DAILY, we must also observe the "salawaat" DAILY. This is basic grammar in all languages, including Arabic.

Peace,

Ahmad

Peace
I didnt say it says Salawat in generally. I said it says salawat and means in generally. It was you who said that it saying salawat per day.
In arabic you can say beware of dogs (kilab) and especially the black dog (kalb) without both of them have to be general plurals nor both of them singular just like in the Quran. Both salat and salawat can be used as in generally just like in the Quran.

Peace