Apeman??? rotfl rotfl rotfl rotfl rotfl rotfl

I guess your the mindless little tool who gets to wear the exploding underpants. Make sure you get your mixtures right or it will fail to explode.

Humanist

Matters of interpretation need proof, you cannot interpret something without justification. So these peoples interpretation is bias.

Rubbish. Interpretation of scripture which is vague and archaic is easily done to suit whatever your needs are. There is no clear meaning for the scripture and bin laden etc are justified in doing such based on your scripture. If is outdated, backward and needs updating which can never happen. Therefore, like everything else which cannot change, it belongs in the library, museum or rubbish heap.

What about evolution? What?s so great about Charles Darwin? There are lots of theories against him. Tell me other than humans what species evolved from one into another? ?Evolution? isn?t totally flawed otherwise we?d all look the same. Our genetics forms us and changes us, we evolve. Though I personal disagree in the way you?re seeing it.

Why are our reproductive systems different than the ape ancestry? Isn?t this a flaw in the so called evolution of men? What about natural selection? if humans evolved from apes why do apes still exist they?d be wiped out if we evolved from them.

What total ignorance from somebody brought up in a western country. How closed is your mind and how brainwashed are you to reject completely the evidence and knowledge? We did not evolve from apes. We evolved from an APE LIKE species. Apes are from the same family tree hence the similarities. perhaps if you read my post rather then getting your knickers up in a twist everytime I post something maybe you would understand better. You know scripture while you are totally ignorant of the origin of the species.

Tell me what benefit do you get in apparently knowing you were an ape? If you believe you were an ape that?s no problem but maybe you should consider renaming your Humanist nick into Apeman, that?ll better fit you.

So, we should only say and do things which benefit us? What about the small matter of the truth? I believe that my ancestors were a less evolved species of man who evolved into what we are today, inventing allah and the quran along the way during his more ignorant and fearfull days to explain when he did not know about the world. Just like adam and eve, this has all been proven wrong, and now is the time to reject teachings disproved by science and the supremecy of man.

Dignity of humans? Equating them to apes?

So what I have no problem saying that mankind was not always living in buildings, able to use the internet, ate cooked food and use toilet paper to wipe his ass. How do you think humans lived 000s of years ago, before civilization? How do you think the abbos in your country lived, how different is that to apes? The coming of civilization lifted us above the other species, discoveries and progress made man the alpha on the planet, not the quran. We were doing fine before the quran came along and we will be doing fine long after its gone.

What dignitiy to women enjoy in the muslim world? What dignity do people forced to believe in what you believe in enjoy? What dignity does the mind shackled by outdated and irrelevant scripture enjoy?

BTW what are you doing here? And quit your evasiveness and preaching. None of us are like you so what is your point? That you disagree with Quran? We get that already.

Another thing Mr evasive I told you to look at the site, you said you did and didn?t understand things so why don?t you discuss that in light of so called verses you read? Like I mentioned before, you don?t genuinely want to see your misconstrued opinion. You don?t wanna hear it, all you wanna do is except some crap you think is islam and argue. Well frankly I?ve had enough of your ignorant egoistic arguments. When you start taking things seriously I?ll consider replying

I have already stated I wanted to know how an intelligent mind could accept false teachings in the era of knowledge and information. How am I preaching by putting my points accross? I just want to understand why you believe what you believe in? Based on your replies, its clear to see that a portion of the mind is closed off to anything which threatens your simple beliefs. anything which is contra to your beliefs is rejected out of hand without any consideration. Clearly 1500 years of brainwash from generation to generation is hard to let go off, and forms part of your psyche. I have quoted numerous verses throughout these last 6 pages perhaps you might want to reconsider your viewpoint? Why not answer those?

How easy to label as ignorant and egoistic something which is not within your value system. Tell me, does the freedom of speech and thought not apply to australian muslims?

You fail to see that its just a matter of interpretation. The quran can be interpreted to allow war, slavery, violence and persecution very easily as proven over the last 1500 years. I point out irrefutable facts, history as recorded by the ages and the current situation in muslim countries, while what you are arguing is conjecture at best. You think only you and your group of people know the real quran but you are wrong. The interpretation of the extremists is as legitimate as yours. Theirs is an extreme interpretation while yours may be moderate yet nobody can say either is right or wrong as it is a matter of understanding something which is so deeply flawed. Anyway, this is a dead end since you can`t accept the possibility that there are legitimate interpretations other than yours (funny considering how much you have in common with the extremists then). You believe the quran is the truth, I would test it against modern science.

1526 And We did certainly create man out of clay from an altered black mud.

1528 And , when your Lord said to the angels, "I will create a human being out of clay from an altered black mud.

1529 And when I have proportioned him and breathed into him of My soul, then fall down to him in prostration."

719 And "O Adam, dwell, you and your wife, in Paradise and eat from wherever you will but do not approach this tree, lest you be among the wrongdoers."

What about evolution? What about the theory of evolution as disovered by Charles Darwin (pbuh) hail ? Darwin discovered, and this has been proven, that man evolved from an ape like species into what we are today. Your quran states that god created man. god did not create man as man evolved from an already existing species. Man already existed, just not in the form which we have today. What is your answer to this?

Of course there are muslims who try to counter this with alternative interpretations of these verses. Which only further proves that scripture is a matter of interpretation and nothing can be taken literally, rendering it a very confusing and confused piece of work. I am a humanist because I believe in the dignity and sanctity of human life. I belive that works like the quran and bible confuse mankind and drive him to do evil deeds while mistakenly believing they are doing good. Any good which comes from scripture could easily be obtained from other sources. The quran and bible are outdated and useless in the modern context, a relic of an ancient era when man was far less advanced and needed fantasy to make sense of a dark and confusing world. continued reliance and devotion to these books result in the conflict and retardation of mind and soul which we see throughout the world.

Look, what does the Quran has to do with globilization? The Quran came down 14 centuries ago. I am just stating what the Quran says which often is not what Sunnism and Shiasm preach and most Muslims fall under these two categories like most jews follow the Pharisaic Judaism that Jesus fought against and most Christians follow the Trintarian Christianity followed by the Catholic and Protestant sect. So to me I don't really see the difference here. One left the OT for their own traditions(read Mark 7), the other introduced a theology in the 3rd century of Christianity known as the Trinity and made Jesus divine, the third followed the Jews way and tossed the Quran behind their backs and followed their own tradition.

What does this have to do with anything? Who cares really about the Christians? Christianity today is unrecognisable from the spider which sucked on the soul of humanity hundreds of years ago. Christianity has been defeated by the renaissance and revolutions througout Europe which created a change in how the church operates. There is clear separation between church and state and no state would act based on scripture as right thinking members of society would never allow it. That`s what happens when science and evolution uncover fantasy tales for what they are, fantasy. The quran is due for a renaissance and until it comes ignorance and the dark ages will continue throughout the muslim world. The only free muslims are those who live in kafir countries.

Strange thing about all this is Western Academicians themselves agree with the fabrication of Sunnism and Shiasm. But after 9-11 the West suddenly started giving authority to Sunnism and Shiasm and their traditions because it is easier to attack and criticize than the Quran.

So let the Western nations do some soul searching THEN go the Muslims and lecture them. Meanwhile no Muslims will pay attention to you because of your lack of credibility. Thats why the Bin Laden's are operating unabated. The Muslims follow the same Islam as he does, so they can't refute and tell him what his doing is wrong. On the other side the West is more bloodier than Bin Laden and so they can't tell him what your doing is wrong. So the Bin Laden's are going nowehere.

But I can go to Bin Laden and tell him to his face "what your doing is not Islam". There is nothing Bin Laden can do to refute me. Nothing.

I suspect Bin Laden would use the quranic verses which call for war (oh sorry self defence) to destroy you and it would be justified in his mind, as what you are saying is justified in your mind. Who is right and who is wrong? how dare you presume to have a better understanding/interpretation of the quran than men like Bin Laden, Ayatollah Khomeni and Mullah Omar who have devoted their entire lives to quranic studies? What makes your interpretation better than theirs? You are mad to think he can`t refute you. A debate between him and you would probably result in you leaving your comfy home to live in Afghanistan/Pakistan to serve your duty defending your brothers against the kafir, as you should. Bin Laden is acting in self defense of muslims attacked by kafir. There are verses which can be interpreted (correctly or not depending on your point of view) legitimising his actions and you are a fool to think otherwise. scripture is so unclear and uncertain as to what it means that 1500 years after it was first introduced, people are still debating the actual meaning. As I have said before, humans who have mapped the human genome and DNA, uncovered the secrets of microbiology, walked on the moon and split the atom are unable to come to a clear agreement on 1500 year old scripture. Scripture! what nonsense compared to the beauty of mankinds other achievements to say that it could be misinterpreted when man clearly is capable of easily interpreting something so simple. You must accept as a minimum that there is no clear meaning behind the scripture, that there is only interpretations and bin ladens interpretation is at least as valid, if not more so (in my interpretation) than yours.

Finally, no I don't believe Muhammad led any conquest. Thats not his job description in the Quran. I already told you what his job description and job responsibility are. He is a preacher and not a soldier. If he fought its because the pagans forced him to. The same pagans who brought us the Islamic Sects. The Pagans of Mecca.

Then you are a revisionist and you are ignoring clearly documented historical facts. You probably don`t think the holocaust happened either.

ok bro lets get down to it. There are words and there are actions. not everything is in the quran for example how to use the toilet, how to eat with your mouth closed, etc. These are seen in the actions of the followers and leaders of the religion. The prophet himself was a conquerer. He did not peacefully spread his religion in the way jesus did, over hundreds of years. Within 20 years, most of the middle east had been conquered, slaughtered or converted. This is the truth and no amount of revisionism on your part can change that. islam was brought into this world not through noble sacrifice like christianity or suffering like the buddha, it was brought it with fire and the sword. You can say its not in the quran (it blatantly is) but the prophet himself kept kafirs wives and children as his own sex slaves, unless further revisionism is going to say he didn`t.

You`re interpretation is clouded by the need to justify you religion as peaceful and tolerant as a result of global reaction against it. Who is to say your interpretation is more correct that Osama bin laden or any one of the ayatollahs? is your scripture that clear that there can be no doubt? Perhaps it is you who is wrong and the madmen who have spent lifetimes studying and interpreting it who are correct? The world has caught up with this religion and book and has found out for themselves. even the dutch who would tolerate all kinds of warped practices and are among the most permissive people in the world have had it with the religion which stands for peace. Even the swiss who are permanently neutral and accept nazi gold have had it with the religion which stands for peace. Its time for all right thinking people to consider the facts and reevaluate their position. at the very least, understand why people like me reject what you preach, for i can easily understand your position. i was once roman catholic and brainwashed almost as bad as you are.

Humanist

what the Muslim world is, isn?t what the ?muslim? world is. The Muslims today are not a true reflection of islam. Know that today what Muslims are, are basically upholding their socio-cultural context mixing it with religion and saying this is islam, over the 1500 years muslims/Muslims have done good. Maybe you only like to pick and choose historical bits.

Really, does that make any sense? Islam itself is derived from Arabic socio-cultural elements, because it`s inventor was also steeped in the culture. Clearly, this is the work of man, not God. Good people do good things, bad people do bad things. Only religions like Islam and ideologies like communism and nazism (Islam is clearly in good company) are capable of making good people do bad things.

They have choice yet they are suffering from a system. Muslim women around the world have choices. Some have better opportunities than others due to the socio-economic status of their country or their homes. In life everyone has different opportunities.

Seriously, you need to see the world a bit more. Socio economic status has nothing to do with how Saudi women live. Why don`t you take a trip down to Saudi Arabia wearing a skirt and blouse like you are allowed to wear now and see how it goes? Lets see what your choices are then.

I understand now what this website is all about. With all that has happened especially since 9/11 and with heavy scrutiny by the media, Islam is under pressure worldwide. You can say what you want about unfair or biased media coverage, the reality is that Islam is being shown up as the intolerant, backward and shallow ideology that it is. There is a worldwide reaction against Islam by the world, for the acts of the followers of Islam is driven by the fact that Islam is an extremist religion. It is extremist because it allows no compromise, no debate, no respect for those who do not follow its ways, and no freedom for those that do. You can say what you want about real Islam, what the world sees in every country which has muslims is the reality. You live in Australia, and the average Australian doesn`t want you there because of what you represent. To them, you spending time on this website is driving you closer to the day when you will blow up an Australian school or airliner. This is the reality of what is happening in the world. All this talk of true Islam cannot change what is true to the victims of 9/11 and their families, or the millions around the world who are under threat from Islamic extremism. Islam brings nothing to countries and societies in the modern world, nothing. Name me one moderate Islamic country and I will point out the problems which Islam causes. Islam involves the implementation of Shariah law, which is rejected by all right thinking humans (we hate it and all it stands for) yet the Muslims have no concern for what us non Muslims want. Islam is a selfish and arrogant religion as can be seen from the Quran. You read it before, now read it again. Why is the Quran so concerned about the unbelievers and spends so much time talking about them? there seems to be an awful lot of scripture related to unbelievers compared to the Bible.

I digress. Back to the first part. You have seen Islam being demonised around the world and desperately search for answers to defend your religion. You feel the eyes of the world on you with disdain, fear and disgust and you feel the world just doesnt understand it. If they did, surely they would not behave in such a way. From Australia to China to the USA, there is a universal rejection of Islam and all it stands for. You believe that this is unfair and you search for ways to defend it. Unlike others of your race (you must be either an immigrant or descended of immigrants from muslim countries) who have rejected the religion to fit in better to secular australian society, you have stronger roots in your culture and Islam is a strong part of your culture (notice Islam is part of your culture, not the other way around as culture predates Islam). You feel there is a certain level of animosity towards your religion and therefore you from secular australians who want nothing to do with your religion and want it out of Australia immediately. Why do they hate your religion and not the Indian hindhus, chinese/vietnamese buddhists, black rastas? If they do hate them, its for their skin color and not their religion, unlike yours. You now spend your time finding ways to prove that your religion and therefore you have been misrepresented by hijackers who have taken over the religion and its ideals. You want to prove that your religion and therefore you are actually peaceful and tolerant. Using the logical mind you possess (only because you were fortunate enough to grow up in a western secular society which allows and encourages women to think for themselves) you believe that you can educate other muslims to think like you, to be like you. If all muslims were like you, surely the worlds muslim population would be saved and better able to integrate. Which would allow you to settle in better to australian society.

What you fail to understand is that you are unique in Islam. You are a muslim yet you are brought up in a secular, modern society which owes its status to science, modernity, logic, reason, compromise and freedom which could never exist under Islam they way it does in Australia. The society which you are brought up in owes nothing to Islam and indeed defends its freedom from Islam every day. These ideals mentioned earlier may exist in a reduced form under Islam, but the degree to which you enjoy these ideals as an Australian is unheard of under Islam and has never been enjoyed by any muslim living in any muslim country, EVER since the days of the prophet. You believe that people have the right to choose and the freedom to do as they please as this is the right which you enjoy currently, not realising that these ideals are purely Australian and have nothing to do with Islam. You see Islam as being free and beautiful as you live in a free and beautiful society where all are able to enjoy this, even muslims. You have mistaken the joys of your life as given by the freedoms of living in a 1st world secular society as being attributable to Islam, not knowing that under Islam you could never have this. As you enjoy the freedoms of Australia, remember that the quran wants to convert the country which shelters you and allows you to be who you wish to be. And with that conversion will come the end of reason, freedom and tolerance beyond what is allowed by the quran and the crazies who draw their power from it, like the cockroaches who rule Saudi, Pakistan, Syria and all the other muslim countries around the world.

All of you see the chaos, murder and hatred brought by muslims around the world over the ages and seek to distance yourself from this by arguing that your religion is different to this. You try to justify Islams existance as you have progressed too far, intellectually you are too developed to just believe that what the madmen are doing is right like the rest of the muslims around the world do. So you try and search for reasons how this could happen and desperate as you are, attempt to justify it as being due to the religion being hijacked and the quran not being translated properly. I see list upon list of misconceptions of Islam, progressive Islam etc. All seeking to push the blame elsewhere which is of course the human thing to do. Blame someone/something else! Yet how can it be misinterpreted after 1500 years? During this time man has been to the highest mountains, created miracles of science the likes of which were unimaginable 1500 years ago, mapped the human genome, discovered the secrets of evolution, walked on the moon and discovered algorithms which power computers. How can mankind not be able to interpret a book written 1500 years ago? Think about it. Its not rocket science after all its just...well verses. Lines and lines of rambling put into writing. What is that compared to understanding DNA? Compared to plotting a route to the moon for a rocket? Astrophysics? Why is the quran misinterpreted hmm While everything else is interpreted properly? could it be that its not possible to make sense out of it in any way? The bible has been properly interpreted, so too the torah, the writings of buddha, hindhu holy manuscripts, confucianism, all of which predate islam face no such problems. Why does your lag behind? Is it because its the worst one of all? By the way, this is what the whole world(not the brainwashed part) believes.

So why hold on to the religion, why do you still believe? It`s because it has such a hold on you that you feel that you would suffocate without it. like the bubble boy, you believe that leaving the bubble will kill you , when in reality you have no reason to fear it as you can and will live better without it. How can it be a religion of peace when it was spread by the sword? There is no misconception, no wrong interpretation. We the citizens of the world have rejected this religion while affirming the freedom of all humans to believe in whatever they choose. What will you do?

Looks like Bigmo just answered your questions, Humanist.

No he hasnt. All he has done is quote verses which are contrary to the verses which I quoted, without addressing the central issue. Why do some verses preach war, hatred and violence while some show peace and co existance with the kafir? Why does one part contradict the other? Has this thought ever crossed your mind when reading the quran? Why is it so inconsistent and contradictory? Hes trying to prove the authenticity and integrity of verses by contradicting my verses with his verses and you think he`s given an answer? The only question it answers is how brainwashed and deluded one must be to believe that these are the word of god!

This book has such contradictions because it was written by a man from his own delusions and thoughts. Whether the verses spoke of war or peace depended on what side of the bed the writer woke up on or how good the slave girl was the previous night. You believe that the quran contains the words of God? This is madness! Was God confused as to what his actual message would be? There is no message from God in this book. Of course there are some verses which speak of peace and tolerance, probably plagarised from the Torah and the Bible. Or probably written after the Kafir had been conquered and most of the population had been converted, therefore there was less need for preaching conquest. Again, all this proves is that the Quran is based on the circumstances of the time, when the prophet needed peace or war, the quran was written accordingly. Without doubt this is the work of man for if God was truly to give a message, it would be a message for the ages and not just for that particular epoch. Of course once the religion had taken hold it was never going to let go and todate there hasnt been a force powerful enough to remove it. Read some Marx for a better understanding of how your religion like any other ideology of power would never give up its position without sufficient force to remove it. It`s time to call and end to this madness and accept that man has enough geniune knowledge to carry on without false teachings to mislead us.

Humanist

Not everyone is born in a muslim family. Also if that be the case in any household you have no choice but to accept what you're parents feed you until your independent. That would make all parents mafia?s muslim background or not.

Islam isn?t the mafia, if you leave you get killed according to who? Sunnis? Shias? Some innovated sect claiming to be muslim?

The reality of the world is there is no country following Islamic law. Just because in some countries people are subjugated doesn?t mean it is Islamic. Also how do they know if you?re muslim or not?

I think you need to get out and see the world a little bit. What you believe and how the muslim world actually is are 2 different things. Actions speak louder than words, and the actions of muslims over 1500 year render your words silent.

Great, I was looking for your answer because you asked what was wrong with a person who is virtuous and worships God to his understanding etc. if you can?t define it then how can there be right or wrong, how can you think of morals? We will definitely be requited by God for the consequences of our deeds good or bad.

Its the madmen who run your religion who say what is right or wrong for its followers, in the real world of course. Which country do you live in? it might help a bit to know. Your "true Islam" which you preach here..if it was widely followed and believed, would end up like the Sunni and Shia sects which you look down on, because your religion is made to allow for abuse. Its like alcohol, you drink enough of it, your going to get drunk. You dont want to blame the alcohol which makes your drunk, instead blaming the poor human who cant help abusing it like its meant to be abused. Why?

Stoning to death isn?t Islamic. Light sentence to man is crap talk. You should correct your erroneous understanding of islam.
Why especially Quran why single it out.. Does Quran say ?slavery is allowed?? if so please show me because obviously you?re onto something so enlighten me.

I mean really. in the age of the internet you still can`t find it for yourself? Maybe this will help unwind the brainwash a little bit

Qur'an (3350) - "O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers; and those (slaves) whom thy right hand possesses out of the prisoners of war whom Allah has assigned to thee"

Qur'an (235-6) - "..who abstain from sex, except with those joined to them in the marriage bond, or (the captives) whom their right hands possess..."

Qur'an (424) - "And all married women (are forbidden unto you) save those (captives) whom your right hands possess."

Qur'an (869) - "But (now) enjoy what ye took in war, lawful and good" (according to verse 71) "Allah gave you mastery over them."

Qur'an (2432) - "And marry those among you who are single and those who are fit among your male slaves and your female slaves..."

Qur'an (217 - "O ye who believe! Retaliation is prescribed for you in the matter of the murdered; the freeman for the freeman, and the slave for the slave, and the female for the female."

Qur'an (1675) - "Allah sets forth the Parable (of two men one) a slave under the dominion of another; He has no power of any sort; and (the other) a man on whom We have bestowed goodly favours from Ourselves, and he spends thereof (freely), privately and publicly are the two equal? (By no means praise be to Allah."

I think after the slavery quote, maybe it is you who needs to understand true Islam a little bit?

You have the right to question and challenge islam now. I mean what is it you?re doing right now? Arguing for the fun of it? Has the world formed humanists into sadists? I?d like to think you?re challenging the Quran but unfortunately your Quranic knowledge seems tainted with sectarian opinions.

Again I am challenging it because this is the internet and none of you are able to strike my head off and make me a youtube sensation. the freedom and liberty which we enjoy on the internet has nothing to do with Islam at all.

Oh seriously this is pathetic. Billions of westerners are told ?you women are liberated? They wanna get educated they can, want a career they can though they?re pay isn?t = to men, want to be mothers they can. Women in the west are expected to be wonder women and do everything and this is the so called liberation? Oh then we have the other extreme of Saudi?s and some Afghans/Pakistani?s who apparently teach women are less then men.

They have a choice. You don`t appreciate the choice because you take it for granted, unlike the millions of muslim women in the world who are unable to speak out for themselves.

Do yourself a favour and work out the difference between islam and what isn?t islam, islam doesn?t teach this. Just because some bozo?s introduced ideologies and tried to indoctrinate people with it, it doesn?t mean it is true nor islamic. every country in schools are indoctrinating children with ideologies. Does it mean they?re all ignorant/knowledgeable? Does it mean they?re all evil/good oh wait is this liberation? How could it be! indoctrinating children!

You?re telling me or rather implying to me islam is Pakistan, islam is Afghanistan islam is Saudi Arabia. Clearly you dunno what islam is. The truth of the matter is life isn?t about idealism, life isn?t about how great one country is and how crap another is.

I?m not looking at an ideal type of islam, I am TELLING you what islam says about itself, not some idealist approach not some sugar coated version. The truth of the scripture not some ulema, scholar or whatever have you opinion/ doctrine.

If you knew islam, you wouldn?t be questioning some so called likelihood with some oppressive regimes.

This site might be useful for you
http//misconceptions-about-islam.com/

but maybe you won't even look at it.. probably because you don't want to challenge your own thoughts of what you think islam is. i guess that's your choice. Some people say ignorance is bliss but who knows.

Actually I have looked at it but it still makes no sense in light of the verses I have quoted on this page and the last. Maybe you could help to reconcile these differences for me?

You still don't get it do you? There are different branches of Islam. You got Sunni, Shia, Ibadi, Wahhabi, Sufi, Quranic etc. etc.
We on this forum are the peaceful kind - because the Quran tells us of peace and tolerance - it's right there, dude, in black and white. And we're followers of only the Quran.
If you revert your attention to the hadith though, you'll find all the things you've been criticizing. But the hadith is not the Quran and not everyone follows the hadith. I hope you get my point, if you don't, then I'm wondering what your purpose here really is. So you got your answer - you're preaching to the wrong choir.

Please see below verses and tell me whether this is consistent with peace and tolerance.

Which actions are you referring to specifically. I know what you're going to answer - well figure out who is behind the actions of the specific occurrences you just thought about and look up what their faith is. Not just Islam. Nobody is just Muslim. Find out their specific beliefs, then find a forum full of people who believe in the same thing.

Your face should be red by now - because you're bitching IN THE WRONG FORUM. D

Look at the following examples of you`re quranic verses. To be fair, I have managed to find peace and tolerance in each verse, so maybe you are right. Is this what you believe in?

The Qur'an

Qur'an (2191-193) - "And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter ...and fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah."

By fighting until persecution is no more and religion is for Allah, there will definately be peace and tolerance.

Qur'an (356) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."

Then they will be peaceful and tolerant.

Qur'an (474) - "Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward."

These Muslims are killed in battle, as they attempt to inflict death and destruction for the cause of Allah. Here is the theological basis for today's suicide bombers and peace and tolerance.

Qur'an (489) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they) But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks."

Seize and slay in the name of peace and tolerance.

Qur'an (495) - "Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward,-"

This passage not only criticizes "peaceful" Muslims who do not join in the violence, but it also demolishes the modern myth that "Jihad" doesn't mean holy war in the Qur'an, but rather a spiritual struggle. But of course it`s also about peace and tolerance.

Qur'an (533) - "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"

Obviously is you murder, crucify, cut off legs and imprison people, there will be peace and tolerance.

Qur'an (812) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

No reasonable person would interpret this to mean a spiritual struggle. It is obviously in the interest of peace and tolerance.

Qur'an (815) - "O ye who believe! When ye meet those who disbelieve in battle, turn not your backs to them. (16)Whoso on that day turneth his back to them, unless maneuvering for battle or intent to join a company, he truly hath incurred wrath from Allah, and his habitation will be hell, a hapless journey's end."

More peace and tolerance.

Qur'an (839) - "And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah"

And when such is achieved, there will be peace and tolerance.

Qur'an (859-60) - "And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah's Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape. Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy."

Dismayed by peacefull and tolerant.

Qur'an (95) - "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them."

According to this verse, the best way of staying safe from Muslim violence is to convert to Islam. This is the best way to create more peace and tolerance.

Qur'an (914) - "Fight them, Allah will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace..."

Disgracefully peacefull and tolerance.

Qur'an (929) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

And once they are subdued there will be peace and tolerance.

Qur'an (930) - "And the Jews say Ezra is the son of Allah; and the Christians say The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!"

Peace and tolerance.

Qur'an (938-39) - "O ye who believe! what is the matter with you, that, when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling heavily to the earth? Do ye prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the Hereafter. Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place."

This is a warning to those who refuse to fight, that they will be punished with Hell. This is how you create peace and tolerance.

Qur'an (973) - "O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination."

Dehumanizing those who reject Islam, by reminding Muslims that they are merely firewood for Hell, makes it easier to justify slaughter. It also explains why today's devout Muslims have little regard for those outside the faith. But its ok because it`s a religion of peace and tolerance.

Qur'an (9123) - "O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness."

That way, when they are all dead or converted, there can be peace and tolerance.

Qur'an (2552) - "Therefore listen not to the Unbelievers, but strive against them with the utmost strenuousness, with the (Qur'an)." "Strive against"

Definately peaceful and tolerant.

Qur'an (474) - "So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners,"

How are you going to make the prisoners once you smite their necks? Oh, its their wives and daughters you want as sex slaves, not them. Peace and tolerance.

Qur'an (4817) - "There is no blame for the blind, nor is there blame for the lame, nor is there blame for the sick (that they go not forth to war). And whoso obeyeth Allah and His messenger, He will make him enter Gardens underneath which rivers flow; and whoso turneth back, him will He punish with a painful doom."

Im not sick or blind or lame so I guess youre religion is not going to be peaceful or tolerant to me is it?

Qur'an (4829) - "Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard (ruthless) against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves"

Peace and tolerance towards Kafir?

I mean seriously youre intelligent enough to use the internet, dont you feel its a bit wierd how a book of peace and tolerance has so much hatred and condones war so much? This is the real Quran which you believe in and not one with all the bad things, I suppose. Do you really believe that this is the word of God which calls for killing, hatred and conversion? If god wanted as all to be muslims, dont you think we would be? the answer is he doesnt, because god is silent. He let`s us live our lives the way we wish and we are only answerable when we face him. The quran does not preach this, it preaches the verses as seen above.

Anyway, I don`t expect you to welcome me to the forum welcome After all

?O you who believe! Take not for friends unbelievers rather than believers Do you wish to offer Allah an open proof against yourselves?? (4144 )

Religion of peace and tolerance? yeah

I would actually say you're as good as a Muslim - a real muslim that is, please don't mistake us muslims for those extremist conservative gun crazed "muslims".

Not to be picky but it's spelled virtuous with a U.

I don't think you read the Quran. Either you "read" the Quran by watching news segments about the extremist or you've accidentally read the hadith.

I live my life in peace and wellness through Islam.

I read some of your post, not all of them, because it felt a bit redundant. It's like there was no real thought behind them.
Are you a troll or something? Instead of analyzing and keeping up an intellectual discussion you just kept knocking on anything anyone says, and any verses quoted by users for you to read.

You're obviously not looking for answers, and you're not here to learn anything new. You're just here to push your opinions on us, and to tell us how wrong we are for believing. Does that make you any better than all the other extremist - trying to make everyone think like them?

If you're in peace with yourself and your beliefs then all I have to say is God bless you! But don't feel it's your duty to convert us to whatever it is you call yourself.

I'm happy as a Muslim, Islam gives me answers. If I had Islam taken away from me I wouldn't be happy anymore, I would be sad. Are you trying to make me sad, Humanist?

Oh but I am looking for answers. I am here because I have always wondered why evidently intelligence people who are clearly capable of free thought could still be freely involved in this religion. I am here to try and deduce whether you have actually thought about it and still believe that this religion is correct, despite all the falsehoods which have been uncovered over the years.

As for letting people believe in what they will, Im all for that. Funny how nobody goes to the Buddhist or Hindhu website to challenge their beliefs. Its because your religion is so intolerant, so hateful of everything which is opposed to it that it creates a counter reaction among others. Every single action has a reaction and the tonnes of anti islamic literature worldwide form this reaction. If Islam truly was a peaceful tolerant religion, I would not be here. I am trying to understand why anybody would defend this religion?

Hi humanists

I disagree with your ideologies of islam

Why does islam limit your ability? I rather believe it does the opposite. Islam is a choice being muslim is a choice.

Why do you restrict your life with laws, common sense or what your parents teach you?

Your conscious can also be fooled to believe in what is bad as good and what is good as bad.

Where did ?commonsense, morals and education? come from? Just by thinking, living? Ever heard of ?Essentialism?? you seem to take that approach.

Curious how do you know if a man is virtuous? Lives a good life? And worships God his own way? how do you know his own way isn't conflicting?

Being muslim is not a choice. You are born a muslim and you have no choice. The reality is that Islam is like the mafia. If you leave, you get killed. Look at the reality of things and not obscure verses. there is no country in the world where islamic law is in place which would allow a human to exercise his/her human rights and leave the religion. There is no real freedom in the religion because you cant leave it. Oh dont count the muslims who life in kafir countries since these are free lands where humans can chose for themselves what they wish to believe in.

Curious how do you know if a man is virtuous? Lives a good life? And worships God his own way? how do you know his own way isn't conflicting?

Only God can decide that, when you die and face him. No mad mullah or iman quoting a dubious book can give you that answer.

A thought, you said
And the laws we live in are not 100% the same or equally fair/just. Why is it a man who rapes or kills get charged with different law sentences? 2 man can rape a girl and both men get different sentences, why? Where?s the logic? The fairness? The justice?

Your right. Its probably better for the man to be given a light sentence and for the woman to be stoned to death or given 00s of lashes for being alone with a man/men who are not relatives . Surely that is logic, fairness and justice.

The law is not perfect, nothing created by man, especially the koran, could possibly be perfect. That is why we have judicial reviews, elections and debates between reasonable men so that the law can be changed if it is discovered to be wrong. Today slavery is illegal where it wasn`t so 100 years ago. Slavery is wrong, completely at odds with human rights, yet the koran allows it, in whatever limited form you wish to argue, it is allowed, Therefore the koran is wrong and needs to be changed. So why would anybody live their lives by something which is obviously wrong yet cannot be changed? But why?

Laws bend and change cos of number cos of consensus (even unchallenged consensus) that doesn?t necessarily mean it is right. Even with numbers, if a government wants to do something it will. Such as America going to war. Ok the war wasn?t a law but where is the justice in that? Isn?t that government abusing power? Is that a safe not falling apart society?

And isnt it great that people have the right to challenge and question these decisions? Isnt it great that people can protest the war and change the goverment in elections?

Let me tell you something ?you actually can!?. Why can?t you do it? Who is stopping you? I know a muslim lady who married a non muslim man, I know muslims who drink alcohol though I?m yet to meet a muslim who wishes to eat pork. But if you choose to do an action you have that choice.

I skipped a few posts what are you trying to say? That islam is intolerable? You mention why do we need Quran? I'll share my view..Quran is a guide and its underlying message can be found in different ways even without the Quran. However to attain a better level, following the guide would be necessary to further gain God consciousness. If you believe in the Quran and didn?t adhere to it, well I guess that would be a fault.

If you don?t follow the Quran I would ask why? Because you feel it unnecessary because you feel your morals/common sense/ parental guidance are just and right and above all but how do you know that for sure? You seem to repulse Quran and include cultural traditions as part of muslim/Islamic practices, so the question is by what guide/translation/understanding do you know the Quran? You?ve read it and a lot of people have and a lot of people, myself included have misunderstood verses. So what makes you think you read it with the right understanding?

Anyway I?ve asked many questions and you don?t need to answer them but at least think about it.

Im guessing you probably live in the land of the kafir and there are no islamic laws in place. Lucky you!! In reality, any muslim country in the world will restrict and limit the ability of its muslim people to do as they wish, within the laws as agreed by mankind, not imposed by an outdated book. So you cannot just perform an action if it is your choice because the crazies who run your religion, as guided by the book, won`t allow you too. In Muslim countries, you have no right except for what the uneducated and narrow minded nutcases who run the religion, as guided by the book, say you have. Try visiting a real muslim country, Pakistan for example and see for yourself what Islam really stands for.

I think you and most people on this website are looking at an ideal type of Islam and are not looking at the reality. Billions of people are living their lives in ignorance, fear and in a state of semi slavery because of this religion. Think of how women in Pakistan, Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia are taught to believe that they are less then men, less than humans and their minds are broken to believe this. How is your religion any different from communism or nazism?

Peace,

You might want to add closed-mindedness.

You seem to be clueless of the term "muslim". It means "one who is peaceful". In fact, according to The Quran (Reading), all who believe in God, do righteous deeds and believe in the hereafter are deemed "muslims". Those who follow and uphold The Quran are called "mumineen" (those who trust/believe).

I recommend this article http//www.free-minds.org/node/10

Look, you can say it means peace, you can say it means LCD TV, you can say it means football. A rose by any other name. Look at this history of your religion since the prophet..where has there been peace? After all have been conquered and are under the banner of Islam, and when all the kafir have been converted or been executed, except for those rich enough to become dhimi, then there is peace. Not that different from the Nazis really if you think about it (can you really say that youve thought about it?). Those who follow and uphold the Quran are not welcome anywhere in the world..even in other muslim countries who dont want trouble makers and people unable to contribute anything useful. No matter how good you think it is, the fact is that your religion is incompatible with humanist values of the modern world. And before you sprout some rehearsed nothings about human rights and respect of life under Islam, please look at the reality. Dhimi and slaves have no rights. Maybe your religion is not in sync with the Quran. Then why not end the religion because its obviously not working..it`s an abomination before God.

How can you be telling us about "the message of the Koran" when you yourself have not read it and/or are totally clueless about it's teachings/concepts/contents? BTW, the word "Christian" does not appear in The Quran. The word used is "nasara", meaning "supporters", namely the supporters/followers of Jesus.

Some principles/commands/teachings of The Quran and it's message

16125 Invite to the path of your Lord with wisdom and good advice, and argue with them in the best possible manner. Your Lord is fully aware of who is misguided from His path, and He is fully aware of the guided ones.

So, in fact, "the Islamc scholars that call for peace and dialog with Christians today" are doing the right thing. It is what is commanded in The Quran.

2563 The servants of the Almihgty are the ones who walk on the earth in humility and if the ignorant speak to them, they say, "Peace."

FYI, "islam" means "peacefulness". I recommend reading this article
Also, war is only allowed in self-defense and against aggressors/oppressors

Again the message of the Koran is very clearly seen in the actions of the lunatics who follow it, and have followed it over the ages. Sure, 1000 years ago the Islamic world was ahead of the Kafir. But because of the backward nature of an ideology which is based on a 1500 year old book, which cannot be amended or changed to suit the human condition, it is inevitable that the troubles and primitiveness in mind and soul of todays muslims is the end result. The inflexibility and intolerance of foreign ideas and values which is promoted by a close minded and jealous religion, which is terrified of allowing it`s followers to choose for themselves, will obviously result in Afghanistans, Pakistans and all the other backward muslim countries which do not have oil and dhimmi to operate their economies.

And again, you can call it peaceful for all you want, but when the founder of the religion of peace himself slaughtered untold hundreds and kept their wives and daughters as his sex slaves, you will of course forgive those of us who remain sceptical. Your religion thinks the rest of the world is deaf and blind. All the while you claim to be peacefull while killing, enslaving and forcing people to convert around the world. And before you quote some empty verse about no compulsion in religion, perhaps you should consult a book which actually contains fact and truth, like a history book to see if your verses make any sense.

Sorry but it is a book of war. The prophet himself was a warlord who killed and took slaves among the Quraish. How do you think your religion spread across the continent within 20 or so years? Jihad, convert or die. You can keep saying the religion was hijacked but the reality cannot be changed. It is an ideology of power and force and this is reflected in it`s actions and the actions of its followers. either that or it is too perfect for mankind, cannot be used by mankind except for evil and therefore should be removed from our world.

Hi simple, I think you might be talking about the wrong religion. Im too lazy to think for myself here, and fortunately I wont need to. There is so much anti islamic literature on the internet which is easily copied and pasted. Well, if you can copy and paste scripture, perhaps it would be better to copy and paste something which is based on a reaction to 1500 years of scripture in action, in substance. I wonder why its so hard to find this kind of literature and writing about Buddhism, or Shintoism, despite being pagan worship which is hated by your religion. maybe its because these religions are actually tolerant and genuinely peaceful, instead of just claiming to be?

Given that the message of the Koran is so clear regarding the blasphemy of Christians, and the need for Muslims to dominate them, it is a bit odd why any Islamic scholars would be calling for peace or dialog with Christians today. In fact, such Muslims are violating the commands of their own Koran, which they believe are given directly from God, pure and without error. The Koran is clear Muslims are not to dialog with Christians, they are to condemn them and dominate them, forcing them into submission.

The Surah clearly disproves anyone who would claim that Islam is a religion of peace or tolerance. After a bit of a vague start in the first three verses, it gets right to the point

614 ?Truly Allah loves those who fight in his cause in battle array, as if they were a solid cemented structure.? Couldn?t be more clear, could it? Allah is a god of war, one who likes a well-disciplined fighting force.

The Koran then goes on to teach that Jesus prophesied the coming of Muhammad, literally by name. Sounds too crazy to believe, I know, but here it is

616 ?And remember, Jesus, the son of Mary, said ?O Children of Israel! I am the apostle of Allah sent to you, confirming the Law which came before me, and giving glad tidings of a messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad.??

Those Christians who would deny that Jesus ever said such a thing are liars, inventing falsehoods, as described in the next verses

617-8 ?Who does greater wrong than one who invents falsehood against Allah, even as he is being invited to Islam? And Allah guides not those who do wrong. Their intention is to extinguish Allah?s light by blowing with their mouths But Allah will complete the revelation of his light, even though the unbelievers may detest it.?

On numerous occasions in the Koran, it is stated that Islam must be the dominant religion, as in the very next verse, following up on how the Christians are liars for denying that Jesus prophesied Muhammad

619 ?It is he who has sent his messenger with guidance and the religion of truth, that he may make it a conqueror of all religion, even though the idolaters may detest it.?

How are Muslims to respond to the Christians and other idolaters who would deny these truths? In the very next verses, the Koran answers clearly jihad, holy war.

6110-11 ?O you who believe! Shall I lead you to a bargain that will save you from a painful doom? That you believe in Allah and his messenger, and that you strive your utmost in the cause of Allah with your money and your lives. That will be best for you, if you but knew!?

The reward for laying down your money and life in holy war? Wiping out your sins and a ticket to eternal paradise, as explained in the subsequent verse

6112 ?He will forgive you your sins, and admit you to gardens beneath which rivers flow, and to beautiful mansions in gardens of eternity that is indeed the supreme achievement.?

Jumping back to Surah nine to see what else it says about how Muslims should treat Christians

929 ?Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which has been forbidden by Allah and his messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of truth, even if they are of the People of the Book, until they pay the tribute tax with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.?

There are two seemingly positive and tolerant passage about Christianity in the Koran, but they both turn out to be shams

547-48 ?Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah has revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by the light of what Allah has revealed, they are no better than those who rebel. To you We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that has come to you. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but His plan is to test you in what He has given you so vie with one another in good works. The goal of you all is to Allah. It is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute.?

However, this passage is actually a sham tolerance, a mockery of tolerance. Verses 47-48 affirm the true Gospel as Allah revealed it. But the Koran is clear in condemning what we know as Christianity as a blasphemy, a corruption of the Gospel that was truly revealed from the Book of Allah. The Koran condemns Christianity as a blasphemy to be fought against, because they assert that Christianity is not based on the Gospel as Jesus proclaimed it.

Thus, there is tolerance for Christianity as the Muslims approve it, which is a Christianity that denies Christ was the Son of God, but there is no tolerance for Christianity as Christians actually practice it, venerating Jesus as the Son. The tolerant verse above only affirms tolerance for the Gospel according to Islam, which of course makes the whole concept of tolerance a total sham.

The one other passage in the Koran that is supposedly also tolerant (2256 ?Let there be no compulsion in religion Truth stands out clear from Error whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks.?) is also a sham. According to Islam, there are only three religions in the world, being the religions based on God?s revelation from the true Book the Koran, the Gospel, and the Torah. However, as we have seen, they do not believe that Christianity or Judaism are based on the true Gospel and Torah. According to the Koran, Christianity and Judaism as they exist in the world are actually corruptions of the true revelations found in the Gospel and the Torah. Thus, the idea that ?there shall be no compulsion in religion,? doesn?t apply, since the religions of Judaism and Christianity are not based on ?Truth,? as it says in 2256, but are actually based on blasphemous error.

You asked me to see physics, chemistry, biology for books on the "truth". And immediately after you stated these books arechanged all the time....is actually false. On this argument how can you be sure that what is written in those today will not be discarded as false? If not why you wish to cheat yourself by the opinionated "truth" of today and falsity of tomorrow.

Do you differentiate between opinion, truth and fact?

Exactly, how do you know what is true today will not be false tomorrow? Well obviously certain things are evident. Man once believed the world was flat. this was true until man circled the globe. books and maps which contained maps of a flat world were immediately declared wrong and changed accordingly. Man once believed that the earth was the centre of the universe. Once discovered to be false, all books and sources of knowledge were changed.

Man once believed that God created man in his own image, and created Adam as the first man. Subsequently, we have discovered that man evolved from an ape like species in a process known as evolution, over millions of years. Evidence of this is given by the existance of dinosaurs 65 millions years before man. Therefore, it is impossible that god created man for there were dinosaurs and other beings before man. Those who invented the story of Adam could not have know about dinosaurs for surely they would have mentioned this in their fantasy books.

Now we know that the books which talk about Adam and not evolution and dinosaurs is wrong. Can we change that book? Can the book be changed? The book which considers itself to be the ultimate source of truth and way of life for humans to follow, has been proven to be wrong. Why would man still believe in it? we no longer believe in the book which says the world is flat, why believe in the book which says that man was created by God in his own image, disproved by evolution?

Logical, rational and intelligent man, given his consciousness by God. Why would he believe in something which has been proven wrong? Surely, it is because these words in the book are imperfect, for only the word of God could be perfect, and God has not spoken for he wants us to find the truth for ourself. If the book does not contain the word of God, why would you follow it? Aesops fables and it`s stories of morality would surely be a better read than the verses.

Dear Humanist,
Great views, but the problem is, the world has boundaries, people have differences, If everyone started living according to his own conscious of right and wrong, the result will not be good, the world had faced such things before and we need great people/visionaries to give great ideas/thoughts to unite people under some common good.

Even after so many discoveries and development, we still don't have a perfect system without problems, every society has their problems and people still suffer, countries/people still make profit selling mass destruction weapons or fight for control of resources or dominance.
Still every country believes that Nuclear weapons make them mighty and strong, that shows how cruel this world is.
There's inequality everywhere, Equal works are not rewarded equally, Some are still working like slaves and some lead a lavish lifestyle sucking the bloods of those others who doesn't have the opportunity.

Many of the things you consider as Islam comes from the Hadiths (History book of Mohammed) and from the kingdoms that used these false history(History) to implement their own rigid ideas and rules for their selfish gains, These kind of things happens even now as we can see how democracy and capitalism hijacked by America for their selfish gains and how thousands of innocents killed in the name of war against terrorism.

I think, Quran or any other previous scriptures doesn't teach us how to live. Its a message of oneness of GOD, there is one GOD for everyone so don't fight among yourself and make peace (ISLAM). Everything else in Quran is for Mohammed and the people around him that day for solving their problems according to the prevailing conditions then and many here analyse those and get signs to lead a better life and they dont want to associate themselves with main stream so called rigid muslims.

I know that I will get the guidance from GOD by doing good and seek guidance with patience, a Quranic message.

We have the law to govern how we live. And the difference between the law and your Quran is that people actually agreed on the law, society accepts the law as necessary otherwise it would fall apart. But the law is subject to change, the law is always subject to change depending on new developments, while the Quran can never be changed, even when it is blatantly wrong. This is why the Quran can never be a source for law and order, because there is no room for improvement. There is no compromise, there is no arguement, there is no debate, there is no changing circumstances. IF I wish to eat pork, drink alcohol, change to another religion, marry a non muslim man(if a was a woman), I cannot do this. This is wrong. It is basic human rights to chose for myself what I wish to do. Your book can never allow this for it is intolerant. No matter how this website tries to spin it, the arguement falls flat. What we consider to be true and right must always be subject to challenge and it must be able to change. Evolution is a constant, everything changes. How can you ask anybody to base their life on a 1500 year old book which remains unchanged?

From specifics you take me to bewilderness. I did not say that I say Qur'aan is right or unique. I am not talking about my claim and claim of other people. In response to your statement I requested to quote the claim of the book not of people.

I dont understand your bewilderness. It does not matter what you say. Again a call for logic and reasoning. If Book A claims that there is one God and A is its prophet, and Book B claims that there are 2 Gods and B is the prophet, regardless of what you say or think, only 1 can be true. Whether you claim it or not is irrelevant. It claims to be the only truth purely by claiming to be the truth, which is different from other truths. Therefore, by definition there can only be one truth. Is that hard to understand?

Again evasive. All what is said is the result of knowledge and experience. Both are passed on ONLY through the book(s). Anything beyond the books is treated as gossip and conjectures, at best opinions. What makes one to hesitate to accept in straight words that the source of Knowledge is the book and it is knowledge that shapes everything else.

Books are written sources of knowledge. Books must always be scrutinised, challenged, amended for mistakes. Once errors are discovered, the book must be discarded and a new one produced. See physics, chemistry and biology for books on the truth. These books are changed all the time as we discover that what once was considered to be true is actually false. To truly consider it a source of knowledge, the book must be open to change and revision. This which cannot must surely be discarded.

Please quote just one book, other than Qur'aan, wherein this claim is made by the book itself and is recorded therein. If you cannot find then please withdraw your generalized statement. Pl note we are talking with reference to book and not the gossip of people and writers.

Let us now use logic to solve this for surely this is what we have in common. If your book is right, the Hindhu/Christian/Buddhist/every other religious book is wrong. If theirs is right, then yours is wrong. By simple elimination, yours holds itself to be the only one right, by virtue of being unique and therefore different from the rest. Simple logic and reason would prove that only 1 can be right when all have different answers to a question which supposedly has only 1 right answer, hence truth.

In discussion one need not be evasive. How conscience and a reasonable and enlightened mind is developed? Book(s) or inner illusions/halucination/random thoughts emergingin heart and mind.

I am restating answers. Education, morality, parents. What we have today to develop conscience and a reasonable and enlightened mind is the result of 000s of years of civilization. I would quote the renaissance, french and american revolution, rise and fall of communism as being key to this. Of course certain parts of the world have yet to have their renaissance which explains why they appear to be 00s of years behind.