Unbelievable!!!!

Hard to believe people, the same people are still arguing about the same topic for almost TEN YEARS!

This argument was done when the Quran was revealed.....

sheesh, wow

Peace
Mixing??? What do you mean?
There is no afternoon prayer. Afternoon in arabic is asr and there is no prayer in asr.
Then you say afternoon prayers are a collective of salawat. I don't believe that you yourself believe that. Definite article or not it still is singular genetive. Ask any arabspeaking true arab.
Wusta and wasat is the same word but in different forms. Its like seal and sealed. Or a kill and killed. Same ground meaning.

Peace

hmm..'no prayer in asr...no afternoon prayer...wusta and wasat..same word...go ask an Arab....'

ok hspesc

Peace
No, Al-salati is singular genitive and the Al-salawati is plural genitive and they are only genitive because they are after a preposition.

Peace

Excuse me, but you seem to be mixing to appear 'correct'.

Again, you seem to have been diluted by the other individual, there are more than ONE afternoon prayer.

Al-Salawati owns or governs Al-Salati Al-Wusta, Afternoon Prayers are a collective of Salawat.

In addition, Al Wusta has a Definite Article attached thus rendering the meaning ALL INCLUSIVE, NON EXCLUSIVE denoting EVERY meaning is relevant to the word 'Wusta', no meaning is excluded.

Definite Article , used to give the meaning of ?Most, All, Complete, Maximum, Whole, and to denote comprehensiveness, all aspects or categories of a subject, or to denote perfection and includes all degrees and grades.

---

Likewise, We made you a balanced nation / ommatan wasatan / , that you be a witnesses over people, and the Messenger be a witness over yourselves

wasatan is a verbal noun NOT an adjective, nor a definite noun(?), Al-Wusta is a different word

'middle nation'?

http//img301.imageshack.us/img301/5464/grammaticalbooknr0.th.jpg http//img99.imageshack.us/img99/7767/sura434grammaticalanalyhf6.th.jpg

Excuse me, your kidding right?

Its Hunna NOT 'antum'. I dont know where you see 'antum', because its NOT there.

Im not sure why the ?? ?wau? is giving you folks so much grief, its merely a marker denoting the end of the intransitive verb and the pointer to the subject, Hunna . Just look at the other references to in the scan.

When separate object pronouns (i.e. Hunna ) serve as direct object pronouns they must come BEFORE the verb. Hunna is NOT a direct object, thus it is NOT in the Accusative Case with these verbs

Hunna is NOT a direct object because it comes AFTER the verb I?DRIBU , which is Intransitive and ONLY requires a Subject, Hunna

Again, Active Verb, the action is directed outward from the subject (Hunna ), which means that the subject (Hunna ) performs the action but does not receive it.

Thus, Hunna is the Subject and Agent of the verb I?DRIBU

I believe the other verbs associated with the subject Hunna are Intransitive also

Assalaam Alaikum Bismi'lahi Ar Rahman Ar Raheem

@Samia, I could careless whether you are the moderator or Queen of All Moderators, you have a problem with admitting that you are wrong.

The truth (is) from ALLAH alone; so be not of those who doubt.

If any one disputes in this matter with you, after knowledge has come to you, say. ? come! Let us gather together,-- our sons and your sons, our women and your women, ourselves and yourselves. then let us earnestly pray, and CALL THE CURSE OF ALLAH ON THOSE WHO LIE!?

This is the true account. There is no god except Allah; and Allah-He is indeed the Exalted in Power, the Wise.

Your argument now Samia is with the Quran NOT me.

Now, instead of slandering me, bring some evidence to disprove what I have presented.

If you don't....

And if they turn away - behold, Allah has full knowledge of the spreaders of corruption.

Fain tawallaw fainna Allaha AAaleemun bialmufsideena

Samia, Good try.....your becoming predictable, when confronted with something you don't know or understand, you feel compelled to 'assassinate' the messenger. Its fine Samia, its common human behavior, when the truth is being conveyed.

But your initial 'issue' was......

"How on earth can "hunna" be a "mubtada' initial noun" when it's suffixed to a verb? And you changed your mind about it being the subject/doer?
4- Frankly speaking, I was never taught this, nor have I read such an expression in grammar

Im asking you as a moderator, to provide evidence supporting your bizarre grammatical analysis"

Well, Now you have been taught that Hunna is Feminine Plural , Subject Pronoun

Moving on....

It obvious someone gave you all of this minutia....isolated facts that are considered separate (irrelevant) from the point

Look under the first in (nushuuzahunna) what does it say? Do you understand what means? (second part of a possessive construct)
Look under the second in This word is divided into 4 parts
We read der it
We read under it , which means (imeratif in the jussif by deletion of the nuun)
(&#1608 The wau is the subject/agent/doer
We read . which stands for direct object

Then there is which stands for (assumed predicate this is the grammaticl position for the whole word/sentence )

@Samia, you did NOT even take the time to read and study what they gave you!

part (beginning) of the Idafa Construct, Possessive Case (Mudaf and Mudaf Ilayh)

Now back to the point...

@Samia, My question to you, are you in agreement that Hunna is a Subject Pronoun, 'isolated' pronoun?

I await your answer to this question

http//img301.imageshack.us/img301/5464/grammaticalbooknr0.th.jpg http//img99.imageshack.us/img99/7767/sura434grammaticalanalyhf6.th.jpg

Grammatical Analysis of the Holy Quran (Arabic) by Grand Mufti of Egypt, Prof. Dr. Muhammed Sayed Tantawi Reviewed by Mohammed Fahim Abou 'Oubayya

http//www.alhikmabookstore.com/index.php?option=com_sobi2&sobi2Task=sobi2Details&catid=0&sobi2Id=472&Itemid=53

@Samia & JM, Both of you are free to contact the publishers of the Grammatical Analysis of the Holy Quran and Dr. Tantawi and Sheikh Abou'Oubayya at Al-Azhar University to express your concern regarding the Subject Pronoun analysis and reference of the following words in Sura An-Nisa 434

Their contact information is in the preface.

hail

Peace
Actually in arabic it says; Guard the prayers and the middle prayer. It doesnt say especially. So its just in generally to observe prayers and also the middle prayer. Just like that.

Peace

Again Al-Salati is Plural, in the Genitive Case, the predicate is Al-Wusta, again Plural....Afternoon Prayers, period NOT ONE 'midday' prayer.

Its grammatically singular but Semantically Plural, meaning its application and implementation has multiple elements, units, in this instance Multiple Timings (i.e. afternoon timings).

Your missing something there. To get heaven, it takes fifty thousand of the god's years. Quran 70.4

And if you take 354 (days in human year) x 50,000 years (from here to most likely outside the universe) you get the number of the god's days = 17.7 million days. And then you multiply by 1000 to get human years. Which gives the age of the universe at 17.7 billion.

As for six days, one can take that from the above which will give you 300 million years for the creation period of universe.

Or one could refer to relativity time if those time periods are not the same as the above method, where 1 universal miniute becomes 1 trillion earth miniutes. And take 6 universal days for 6 million million which divided by 354 days becomes 16.9 billion years.

So 6 days x 50,000 x 1000 = gives the number of years it took the universe to be made.

Your math is off.....

These are the SIX PERIODS as confirmed by Geologic and Cosmological Science....

Four Geologic Periods = Cenozoic, Mesozoic, Paleozoic, Precambrian

Cenozoic This era began 66 million years ago and includes the geological present.
Mesozoic This era began 251 million years ago and lasted about 186 million years.
Paleozoic This era began 542 million years ago and lasted about 291 million years.

Precambrian The Precambrian's lower limit is not defined, but ended about 542 million years ago. The Precambrian encompasses about 90% of Earth's history.

Two Cosmology Periods = Big Bang, Matter, Galaxy and Star formation
The Two Cosmology Periods are 10,000 and 300,000 years, respectively.

Point One Using the 50,000 year 'Day' as a 'constant' variable poses a problem. It does not take into account when Earth and the Universe were completed and more importantly how long!

Point Two Its just an indication as to the length of time it takes for 'light' to ascend and descend NOT how long it took the universe to be completed.

Point Three 50,000 years of 'light' travel, doesn't even get us outside our galaxy! (actually, puts us right on the edge)

The Universe within 50000 Light YearsThe Milky Way Galaxy
http//www.atlasoftheuniverse.com/galaxy.html

http//img301.imageshack.us/img301/5464/grammaticalbooknr0.th.jpg

Grammatical Analysis of the Holy Quran (Arabic) by Grand Mufti of Egypt, Prof. Dr. Muhammed Sayed Tantawi Reviewed by Mohammed Fahim Abou 'Oubayya

http//www.alhikmabookstore.com/index.php?option=com_sobi2&sobi2Task=sobi2Details&catid=0&sobi2Id=472&Itemid=53

@Samia, You are free to contact the publishers of the Grammatical Analysis of the Holy Quran by Dr. Tantawi and express your concern regarding the Subject Pronoun analysis and reference of the following words in Sura An-Nisa 434

Salaam Muslimtruthrevealed

So in your opinion do you think its better to translate it as "PERIODS" or "AEONS"?

aeon A period of 109 years (i.e. a billion years);
aeon - eon an immeasurably long period of time;
aeon - eon (Gnosticism) a divine power or nature emanating from the Supreme Being and playing various roles in the operation of the universe

I like 'six periods', seems a bit more relevant (i.e 4 Geologic, 2 Cosmologic Periods)

Would you please answer the other question bout the conjugation of the verb "adribu"?

Also, give example of "hunna" when it is suffixed ( &#1604.
Please copy and paste from the reference you are giving. Show that the "Grammatical Analysis of the Holy Qur'an" by Tantawi refers specifically to this case; or at least what case it was talking about.

Just because the in is not physically connected to the word before it, this does not mean it is not suffixed to it. The absence of the physial connection (as in )is simply because the letters preceding (&#1606 in the examples you gave are letters that do not connect to the letter that follows ( )

Assalaam Alaikum @Samia

Again, as I stated earlier, Im sorry, Im not going to do homework for you. I have presented substantial evidence to confirm and support the position and reflection of 'Hunna' as a Subject Pronoun, 'isolated' pronoun in Sura An-Nisa 434.

You are free to accept the evidence or bring evidence to suggest Hunna is NOT an 'isolated' pronoun, or just reject it all together.

I will accept whatever position you choose.

This is correct. Wen "hunna" is suffixed to a verb as the case of (idribuhunna), it has to be in the accsative, direct object. It jus
How is ( Hunna) an 'Isolated Pronoun' when it's clear that it's suffixed to the verb "adribu"?
What person is the verb "adribu" conjugated to? (for example second person singular feminine...)?

Samia, it's NOT suffixed or affixed to any word. Subject Pronoun means 'isolated', that's clear.

Confirmation that Hunna is a Subject in the following words in Sura An-Nisa 434

Reference ?A Dictionary of the Grammatical Analysis of the Holy Quran? by Tantawi Sura An-Nisa 434 page 105

Assalaam Alaikum @Samia & JM

Samia's statement "How on earth can "hunna" be a "mubtada' initial noun" when it's suffixed to a verb? And you changed your mind about it being the subject/doer?
4- Frankly speaking, I was never taught this, nor have I read such an expression in grammar"

JM's request "As far as i know, hunna, hu, kum, and all pronouns like that cannot be used as subject pronouns. Please provide a proof from a grammar book that they can."

Confirmation that Hunna is a Subject in the following words in Sura An-Nisa 434

Reference ?A Dictionary of the Grammatical Analysis of the Holy Quran? by Tantawi Sura An-Nisa 434 page 105

I?DRIBU is an Active Verb, the action is directed outward from the subject (Hunna), which means that the subject (Hunna) performs the action but does not receive it.

Hunna is Subject Pronoun or 'Isolated Pronoun', which are ONLY for SUBJECT functions

Action is directed outward (away) from the subject....avoidance
Subject (Hunna) performs the action...turning away from strife, arguing, discord
Subject does not receive the action...No beating is occurring

I?DRIBU-hunna (I?dribu = Plural Masculine - Hunna = Plural Feminine Pronoun , Indicative Imperfective , Active Verb , Nominative , Imperative ) means to neglect, ignore, avoid, turn away from strife, discord, animosity between or among people

Lanes Lexicon PAGE 1779 Left Column & 1780 Middle Column Part 5

Salaam Al Khidr,

Both translations are wrong. The Qur'an says in this verse than Allah created these things in six "ayyaam"/days... Some people can interpret it to refer to periods or aeons, stages, or whatever; but it literally says "six days".

Peace,

Ahmad

Ahmad, Again, speak what you know NOT what you think....What is your problem?

He Who created the heavens and the earth and all that is between, in six PERIODS, and is firmly established on the Throne (of Authority). Allah Most Gracious. ask you, then, about Him of any acquainted (with such things).

Allathee khalaqa alssamawati waalarda wama baynahuma fee sittati ayyamin thumma istawa AAala alAAarshi alrrahmanu faisal bihi khabeeran

Ayymin, PLURAL PERIOD(S) OF ERAS, AGE?S, TIME Hans Wehr Arabic English Dictionary 4th Edition page 1300 Tanwin-Kesra makes it indefinite(nakeeratun) length of each period can be indefinite (any number of years, eras, ages or time)

These are the SIX PERIODS as confirmed by Geologic and Cosmological Science....

Four Geologic Periods = Cenozoic, Mesozoic, Paleozoic, Precambrian

Cenozoic This era began 66 million years ago and includes the geological present.
Mesozoic This era began 251 million years ago and lasted about 186 million years.
Paleozoic This era began 542 million years ago and lasted about 291 million years.

Precambrian The Precambrian's lower limit is not defined, but ended about 542 million years ago. The Precambrian encompasses about 90% of Earth's history.

Two Cosmology Periods = Big Bang, Matter, Galaxy and Star formation
The Two Cosmology Periods are 10,000 and 300,000 years, respectively.

Ahmad, 6 days?

Peace
Still the word wusta only means middle.
No, Lane has quoted "mots excellent" as a possible translation of wusta.

Penrise also proposes "the more worthy" for awsatu/wusta.

Peace

Peace

Assalaam Alaikum @JM

Al-Wusta is a predicate of the Genitive Construct in Sura 2.238

Ahmad, Take a break, you don't have a clue, your just talking "out the side of your neck".

Be humble enough to learn, and the only way you can learn is to listen.

Take a break for a day or two, arm yourself with at least a cursory understanding of the subject matter. Then come back to the thread and lets talk.

May I suggest you start with the Genitive Construct.

Sorry, I have been confuse, and the question I was asking you was not relevant.
Of course hunna can be a subject pronoun.

Do you really mean that, in adribuhunna, hunna is the subject (and not the object) ?
If it is the case, how would it be translated ? By "they strike/leave" instead of by "strike/leave them" ?

Peace

Assalaam Alaikum @JM

I?DRIBU is an Active Verb, the action is directed outward from the subject (Hunna), which means that the subject (Hunna) performs the action but does not receive it.

Hunna is Subject Pronoun or 'Isolated Pronoun', which are ONLY for SUBJECT functions

Action is directed outward (away) from the subject....avoidance
Subject (Hunna) performs the action...turning away from strife, arguing, discord
Subject does not receive the action...No beating is occurring

I?DRIBU-hunna (I?dribu = Plural Masculine - Hunna = Plural Feminine Pronoun , Indicative Imperfective , Active Verb , Nominative , Imperative ) means to neglect, ignore, avoid, turn away from strife, discord, animosity between or among people

Lanes Lexicon PAGE 1779 Left Column & 1780 Middle Column Part 5

Assalaam Alaikum

@Ahmad, Again, speak what you know, NOT what you think.....stop 'frontin'

Be preserver over the SALAWAT / PRAYERS and (be preserver of) the alwusta / afternoon, midmost, middle SALAH/PRAYER and you stand for Allah obediently.

@Ahmad, Do some research on Genitive Construct