I have the perfect speaker that you would perhaps find fascinating, check out this Spiritual Catalyst, her name is Teal Swan on youtube. She may have the answers that you're looking for. http//www.pic4ever.com/images/snoozer_11.gif

I don't trust people that try to make a profit. They most likely lie to for personal gains.

This is not only in matters of religion but in pretty much everything.

Indeed, hansolo is thinking straight.. not. http//www.pic4ever.com/images/290.gif

He's asking question based on what the other member stated. If you actually read the Quran and atleast know the stories of the Gospels and The Torah. You have humans altering reality and the material world, yes I am talking about prophets.

Lately I've been thinking it might all be made up, like all the other tales, legends and mythologies. However, what if it's true...how did these humans perform so called miracles. I don't need an answer but I'm just saying.

Hansolo is trying to find the truth so he's trying to understand everything and everyone, sadly it's too much information sometimes that makes everything seem so confusing.

The answers are screaming right in your face. Interests being used to cripple livelihood.
You sound so convinced, God brings the sun from the east, so you bring it from the west? Please.. http//www.pic4ever.com/images/onion053.gif

Man of Faith got through to you, as it was apparent from your admiration for his work.
It's never meaningless if you're a loving human being. http//www.pic4ever.com/images/129fs4252631.gif

9218 The one who gives his money to purify.
9219 Seeking nothing in return.
9220 Except the face of His Lord, the Most High.
9221 And he will be pleased.

I'd talk about your other points, but I'd be going in circles with you.
Peace. http//www.pic4ever.com/images/kaffeetrinker_2.gif

Because Man of Faith and Hansolo are the only ones thinking straight and actually trying to figure out the truth instead of believing what we've been told since we were young as facts without questioning them.

I said it in my introduction thread, I mainly joined free minds to learn more about his perspective.

I have not fully answered Wakas question but till now you and good logic have just avoided my reasons. Anyways like I said people here are stuck in a loophole

Basically you want GOD to make everything very clear to us.. GOD ,the Angels and all the unseen will be summoned before our eyes and this life will be terminated.
Everyone will obviously believe and all will live happily ever after wherever that may be. A different world? Because there is no need for this world or its purpose.
GOD bless.
Peace,

Did you even read what I wrote

Looks like I was right after all.

Ok I'll get right to it even tho I see no point in explaining my point of view.

Now I will give you 5 reasons why I believe the current interpretations and the way we understand the Arabic language is false. Mainly my problem is with the core message of the Quran and the concept of God, I will not get into the rules/laws because how we see them can be different from one person to the next. For example The inheritance, Sunni Muslims claim that it's 100% fair, as the son/uncle/grandfather are responsible (also financially) for the daughter after her father dies. However, many members here would disagree due to unfairness, control of women, etc... Another example is the Hijab or the veil how it's viewed by many Sunni Muslims and how it's viewed by western community and homosexuality, etc... Anyways lets get to it..

1- The reason for creation. Now the Quran claims to be fully detaield/complete (however you want to translate it) but many key and critical points and answers are missing. Now not long ago I asked on this forum "Why were we created" and I received answers mainly one of the three (with Quran references) To worship or to serve or to do good or all three. Let's examine them one by one according to the Quran

To Worship, now I have a problem with this because why would God want to be worshipped? MOF brought up a very important point here on the forum and many have failed to listen, that we humans have created an image of God similar to a Human ruler or a person in power with wordly desires. Every King/Queen loves to be worshiped in some form or another, it's a desire to feel dominant over the rest, greed for power and control. If we think about it logically if God is truly what he claims in the Quran, why would he want humans to praise him night and day? why perform rituals? if not rituals why even care if they acknowledge him or not? God is the ALMIGHTY and we are nothing, weak human with no power. Allah in the Quran is a Jealous God just like in the Torah, a trait that shows weakness and no self control. How can God be such?! Why does God even care if we believe in other Gods or follow other religions?....

To Serve, Now God in the Quran mentions several times that he is not in need of anything or anyone. Whatever he wants, he just wills and it happens. Then why did you create billions of humans with no power whatsoever and ask them to serve you? How can we even serve you? why would God even care? There is nothing in this physical world that we can do that will ever serve God, the only way to serve him is spiritually. How? I'm not sure yet, but still according to the Quran God does not even need that!

To do Good, now in the Quran the world will come to an end and we live in a world where we will all eventually die, right? Lets say I do good by helping the poor eventually they will die and all my effort and their suffering will come to a halt. It's all meaningless! Just like doing good in the world by developing it or creating new projects to help mankind, eventually this world will be destroyed...and all our efforts will be meaningless. SO Why does Allah want us to do good? and what is good? because again it's very subjective. I eat meat and I love it! a vegan thinks I'm a one of the reasons animals are murdered on a daily basis. People having multiple sex partners, others might find it bad, etc.. you will have a tonne of examples really

So to be honest, no matter how hard you look at the Quran I GUARANTEE! that you will not find an answer without ONE WAY of circular reasoning to justify it. I'm willing to bet my whole damn money, life, everything on it!

2- Example of Attributes of God Quran claims God is the most merciful, now any person with an open eye will truly see that it's not true. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I hate God or I think he's evil, I just think he has no emotions and he only cares about results, but that's another topic. Now over and over again the Quran claims God will punish, burn, destroy and torture those who do not believe in him, those who go against the Quran! Yet lets say a man lived 80 years, how is it fair for him to be punished for all eternity for not believing in God or even doing evil for a period that is negligible compared to infinity.

This is also a problem as the Quran claims God is in control of everything, another contradiction! If God is in control of everything then we cannot have free will, it just doesn't make sense. Thus how can God punish us when he has total control over us?! But if God has no control over us then God is not in control of everything! its just very simple but people are too stupid and afraid to claim that God is not in control of everything.

God is all knowing HOW!!!!!?? THEN WHY THE F ARE WE HERE IN THE FIRST PLACE!!! it's very stupid to test something when you already know the end result, it's even dumber when you create something to test it and say you know everything about it. Why test it then? does this even make any sense?! I've had a forum member here post some garbage about us living in this world to appreciate other things lol but still God could create us with the gift to appreciate everything no matter what! Believe me Wakas no matter how much you think about it, you will always go back to circular reasoning to justify this!

3- God used a language that is specific to a certain area AND words have different meanings. In our world the only language that can never be played with or twisted is math, like Edip always said "It's the universal language" and I totally agree with him. Yet God, according to the Quran used a language where almost every word can be used to have several meanings, this opens up a door to corruption, misinterpretation and misinformation. Now you have Quranists trying as hard as possible to look for the meaning of the word that will justify their stance just like Shia and Sunni Muslims. Why not make a language that's more like math to explain to the humans God's message! why did you prefer to use a language that is only known to a limited number of people. IF GOD WOULD HAVE USED MATH OR SOMETHING SIMILAR then the whole world would be able to understand the TRUE MESSAGE! a person in china not knowing Arabic will have to rely on interpretations and translations of others, it's truly unfair. Your reply might be "well the Quran claims to have sent messengers to all communities and tribes", however, every damn prophet mentioned in the Quran was pretty much only around the middle east. I didn't see a mention of any Chinese prophet, or a red indian prophet or a latino prophet?!

Now the road to salvation is also to believe in God, his messenger, the Quran, his angels and judgement day! meaning only people that read the Quran and believe in according to the interpretation of someone else or their if they've put an effort would enter heaven and live in the middle east. How about the rest? the ones that have not been introduced to the Quran, the ones that have not read the message? what about them?

This is tiring lol. Anyways honestly I've just wrote 3 points that came to my mind and in no particular order of importance. I will continue later at night or tomorrow when I have more time

I didn't write that, that's why I added quotation marks lol. You can read all of it here https//www.al-islam.org/al-mizan-exegesis-quran-vol-1-allamah-tabatabai/suratul-baqarah-verses-30-33

I kinda thought you might have not written it but was just making sure. Anyways thanks.

The "A commentary" is from https//www.al-islam.org/es/node/19106

Wakas mentioned a request for you about your objections, will you go through with it? God willing.
Peace. http//www.pic4ever.com/images/kaffeetrinker_2.gif

It's really useless. He's not asking to listen to me but to try to counter everything I write.

Most of us at some point truly believed in the old stories of Mohamed and the Hadith books, most probably most of us were willing to die believing in it. Now that we've opened our eyes a little bit we have abandoned Hadith books, I don't think any of us feel like we could ever go back believing in them just like how I currently feel like I can never go back to believing in the current interpretations of the Quran.

The difference here is, it's easy to abandon hadith books. The excuse is that they're written by men and men make mistakes np. But when the Quran is thought to be the word of God, no one wants to cross that red line and we all fall back in fear. We're stuck in a loophole of circular reasoning to justify whatever we find, change the meanings of some words to justify the message, twist and adjust to make it fit.

So it's really a waste of time as they wont listen.

Im not the best at expressing my opinion and I'm not the greatest writer but many have come here with much superior writing skills to send the message that it all doesn't add up. Most have given up and left or come in from time to time.. It's like standing in the middle of mecca trying to convince people that Hadith books are made up. It's a waste of energy and honestly I'm trying to find the truth not save the world.

I know I'm moving in the right direction, if anyone is willing to find the real truth I will gladly share everything I know and believe till now.

A commentary

"The angels understood the ultimate behavior of the said vicegerent from the words, ?in the earth?.

A vicegerent appointed in the earth would certainly be created from material components; he would necessarily be bestowed with two basic traits of desire and anger; the earth is a place of unceasing struggle and constant confrontation; its resources are limited, its opportunities finite; but the proposed vicegerent's desire would be unlimited, infinite. The condition of the earth and earthly things was hardly reassur?ing.

Its creatures were subjected to ever-continuing deterioration and disintegration; its good was always turning into bad; it was a place where an individual could not live without a group having similar characteristics and traits. Keeping all this in view, the angels at once understood that what Allah intended to create was not only an individual, but a species.

The members of that species would have to live together, cooperating with one another; that is to say, they would have to establish a society, a social order. And with a venture like this, they were bound to cause mischief and to shed blood.

On the other hand, they knew that vicegerency - setting one thing in place of another - was unthinkable unless the vicegerent were a true copy of his predecessor in all the characteristics, traits and intrinsic abilities.

The proposed earthly creature was to be made vicegerent of Allah in the earth. Allah has got for Himself the best names, the sublime attributes; His mercy and power are beyond the comprehension of His creatures; He, in His person, is untouched by any defect; and, in his actions, is free from all kinds of evil and disorder.

How could an earthly vicegerent, with all his defects and deficiencies, represent the majesty and splendor of Allah in the earth? Well, could a lowly creature of earth be a mirror of divine beauty and sublimity?"

Honestly I like your explanation, took me a while to reply because I haven't looked at it that way before.

What caught my interest is the last question. Are you saying that we can become like God/Allah?

Actually your explanation is based on alot of assumptions but I would like your reply first so I can continue to talk just to get a clear picture of your writing.

Peace Rekkd.

You have already established that no one here can give you an answer. So what do you do?

I have a request, if you do not mind. Please ,when you find those /or a person who gives you your answer ,come back and shared it with us.
I sincerely wish and strongly hope that you find an answer.
Your answer that you will be certain about. I mean you will not have a single issue nor any more questions that will cross your mind.

Keep searching brother. Best of luck to you.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

I don't think anyone will be giving me an answer in this lifetime. I have to figure it out myself, I have reached this point by always questioning my beliefs and what I've been told by others.

Yes I do like to listen to other points of view and learn more from others, no matter who! 2 weeks ago I was at a McDonalds eating and this homeless man full of anger starts talking to me in Arabic, as I look Arab. He's complaining about life, the jews, the states, etc... At then I asked him "Why do you think we are here", ofc his answer was to worship Allah.. I kept asking why and how and I got the same answers every muslim knows. What I'm trying to say here is I listen to everyone, I don't care if that person is a professor, a president, a scholar or a homeless uneducated man. I like to understand people, I'm very curious about everything and I ask myself a million questions a day.

Now back to the topic. The problem I find here is people are stuck and have ceased to move forward. Ok you've abandoned the Hadith books and everything related, Great! Now what? Try as hard as possible to twist and adjust the Quran to fit with modern society AND to alter the crazy verses in the Quran. I was hoping I would find people like me out there, trying to figure it out.

We are so attached to this life, our prayers are worldly, our image of heaven is wordly, our fears of punishment are wordly. All we think about are our finances, relationships, family, career, desires.... Meaningless. Yet our spiritual side longs for something that we just don't know what it is, that's why you have all these religions that were created by man to fill that gap. Sadly people believed whatever they were told.

God created this world with one simple rule! That everything happens for a reason. I know it's very clich? but look at the physical world, it all seems like a perfect masterpiece. And the method to understand our world is through science thus our creator's way of thinking is that there is a logical beneficial reason for our creation or we are part of a process for something to come. So worshipping or serving or that garbage is not the answer, as it is not logical and results to nothing for God.

Currently that's where I'm at right now, I don't believe in anything specifically but I do believe in a creator as it's the only logical answer. I will gladly share my answer if I ever find it, but no matter what, I think there will always be unanswered questions.

Cause it's true
230 And mention, when your Lord said to the angels, "Indeed, I will make upon the earth a successive authority." They said, "Will You place upon it one who causes corruption therein and sheds blood, while we declare Your praise and sanctify You?" Allah said, "Indeed, I know that which you do not know."

Again quoting the Quran, anyways please take some time and think about that verse. Ayah 230 has been the starting point of my doubts against the current interpretation of the Quran and the Arabic language.

Ask yourself, What does a successive authority of God really mean? Who is the successive authority? Adam? If yes, then the Angels were there with him so why would they assume that he'll shed blood and cause corruption? If not Adam but the Human race, then again why would they make such an assumption? If it's Satan, then why would God make him a successive authority? According to these verses if it IS the human race, aren't the Angels right?... All these questions can never be answered because no matter what it won't add up, something will be missing.

Btw im willing to bet that every member that reads my post will think about replying with something like "Only God has all the answers" or something like that!

People here are no different than the Sunni/Shia muslims. The only difference is that they reject the Hadith book, sira, etc....

If you look at every member here, they keep spamming the same garbage.. "Only God guides us", "Only God knows", "Only God is our saviour", "Only God can..." etc...

As you can see, their beliefs are all based on throwing any responsibility or reason on "God".

They abandoned their sectarian beliefs but are too afraid to challenge or doubt the Quran. They are no different!

No one on this forum even thinks about why they were created. When I asked that question everyone rushed and said "to worship" "to serve" "to do good and bring peace".. But if you actually look at those answers you'll see that they are very empty and weak. Meaningless really.

They all believe the Quran is from God but none of them can even prove such a claim, they always fall back to circular reasoning. This forum is garbage just like Ummah forum. I suggest you don't even try to look for answers here, it will lead you nowhere.

It makes no sense being called masjid al haram or forbidden masjid. Something is wrong here....

Why is it in Mecca? Why do we worship a cube just like the pagans worshipped statues and other things? The answer might be well... It's Gods house or represents God's kingdom or it brungs unitiy as all muslims are doing the same thing and praying in the same direction. Just like the pagans would make up excuses and stories to justify worshipping idols.

It makes no sense!!!

We were created for a reason and that is not it!!

To explain it's meaning the link provided in the posts above turns to the direction that there might be a misinterpretation or mistranslation. This should make you doubt everything else, because you don't know what the scholars and clergymen of the past made up to push forward their agendas.

Thankfully I left that garbage behind and opened my eyes

Imran you keep stating the same things over and over again. You take the Quran as something that cannot be wrong as its God's words but you forgot that Arabic is a man made language, the interpretations you know are man made.

You quote verses from the Quran that are extracted and explained/interpreted/introduced/taught by humans.

When you see inconsistencies and contradictions you should not be stubborn just because you believe it's God's words. Humans throughout history have deceived each other especially in this matter!

The truth lies beyong the Quran only. I believe Man of Faith is right about the interpretations of every book from the Abrahamic religions as being misinterpreted.

God does not contradict himself yet the Quran contradicts itself. How is that so?

I'm tired of so much misinformation about our reason for being here and being stubborn about it will not lead to an answer. I refuse to be we were created to for the sole purpose of worshipping/serving/submitting to God for his own amusement. Our purpose must be greater, God created us for a REAL reason, to benefit in some way or another and that is the only logical conclusion. However I do not know what he gains or how do we benefit him yet.

I started to open my eyes and see the inconsistencies and contradictions similar to the way I saw Sunni Islam.

I've read so many threads and opinions and found nothing but circular reasoning to justify anything here.

Comrox your answer is based on this reality. God could have created us different without the need of suffering to learn or develop or wtvr.

Reel, you didn't understand Man of Faith. He's talking about another type of obsession and occupation.

Imran, my advice would be take a break from this forum and everything to do with religion. Then start reflecting and asking yourself about your beliefs. You will see it all doesn't add up.

Man of Faith, The missing part or I would say is what's most important to me. Is why would God want us to develop? What does he gain? Could he have created us perfect from the beginning? I don't care much about our reason as much as God's reason for creating us!

He created everything, a very complicated world and what's outside. He couldn't just create a bunch of developed spirits from the beginning and save us all the troubles?

When God said we created the humans and jinn to serve or worship me.

Please explain this Ayah 39/53;

Say, "O My servants (Ya 3ebadi) who have transgressed against themselves , do not despair of the mercy of Allah . Indeed, Allah forgives all sins. Indeed, it is He who is the Forgiving, the Merciful."

God is telling the Mohamed to say to the people My servants/slaves/worshippers. This single Ayah contradicts the whole Quran and the message of the Quran. No matter how we would like to sugarcoat it, it's right there infront if us.

Reel, if God is in control how is it that people will be punished for wrong doings when he has total control. Now if you're going to tell me freewill and we make our own choices thus this concludes that God is not in control. In the Quran it states that God leads people in the right path and misleads others. He is the creator, how can he create bad people and punish them for being bad? There is so much inconsistencies and contradictions in the sectarian interpretations of the Quran. Did God know they were going to be bad people? If yes he knows the future then wtf is he testing? Unless he doesn't know the future then again contradiction.

God created logic and reason. We choose not to worship statues because we know they can't do anything. We choose not to worship jesus because we know a "God" cannot be humiliated and killed like that. We choose not to worship an animal because they are inferior to us on an intellectual level or at least on a consciousness level.

Now the Quran states God does not need anything but he created humans to serve him. Does this sentence make sense to anyone? We as mere humans cannot serve God is my conclusion. Our purpose is not to serve as we can't do that, and God does not need it.

Our purpose must be something else, people here on this forum are stuck trying to modernize the Quran and argue over small details. BUT the bigger picture, if not the most important piece of knowledge which no one here seems to think about and reflect upon is WHY ARE WE HERE!

We are born to die, everything we have, or did or accomplished will be useless once we die. People that create a purpose for themselves like building an empire, becoming wealthy, having a family are deluded of the true reality. What is the true reality, I don't know but I will find it.

Anoushirvan, I came here to reassure myself that I have made the right decision. The sectarian interpretations of the Quran will lead me nowhere, at least not to what I want to find out. To reassure myself that the way of thinking of Quran alone muslims is just like Sunni/Shia muslims just a little better.

Reel, is God in control of everything?