Almost! IMHO You have divided/separated the Quran from the Umm-ul-Kitab, nope when you
are reading Quran you are reading part of the "Mother Book" see 43/2-4, and 2/4 retranslate.

God bless you

peace

Hawk,

I think this Website summarizes what your view point is?

http//sufiyya.blogspot.com/2010/02/umm-al-kitab-surat-al-raad-13-39.html

My personal translation was "That book has no doubt in it, guidance for those who fears(muttaqin)". CMIIW.

Good, thank you Farabi,

Now in your translation and according to your understanding which book does "That book..." refer to?

Peace Saad Bekker,

Good questions, let's approach this horse from another angle. Please read 13/39, 43/2-4, 85/21-22, 57/22
then re-read my previous post. Give license to Allah who is trying to make a point to you, look at words
like they have broader meanings. A myopic view of words and meanings in the Quran will only hinder
your understanding. The word book, this, that, must be taken in context not only in the verse but in the
Quran as a whole.

Kitaabun = book

KAF-TA-BA he wrote it, to dictate it, prescribe/appoint/ordain, judged / passed sentence / decreed,
drew/brought together, collected, conjoined / bound, he sewed it, what is written (e.g. of law),
mode/manner of writing, book, bookseller, a thing in which or on which one writes, record/register/writ,
revealed scripture, a writer/scribe/secretary, an army/military force, troop.

God bless

peace

Aha! So if I understand you correctly as well as the Verse/s you referred me to, you are saying that the "That Book..." referred to in the Quran 22, is actually the "Mother Book" (1339) which is with Allah?"

So "Dhalika l-kitabu" in 22 could/should be translated as "The original record, the "Mother Book" which is with Allah, is the book in which there is no doubt, and which is the guidance... "

I hope I understood correctly but if not please adjust my attempt to translate 22

Hi,
Well, I cant tell wheter you're beeing sarcastic or not ;D
So, In my understanding Kitab mean something written, and it was book. And 22 is talked about Moses scripture which is called alkitab. There is a lot of verse on the quran that saying whoever did not establish the torah law and the christiant are not applying their teaching they are in darkness and wicked. So on my opinion, "That" in that verse was saying about the bible.
...
I cant edit my post.

Kitab derived from root KTB which mean writing. And there is another word for describing literacy which is QLM. QLM mean was pen, but there is idion 'ILM QLM which mean literacy, but activity to produce a paper is kitab.

If you want to write, Farabi writing a books. On quran arabic it would be, "Farabi kataba kutubu".
Here is another example

Farabi history is written.
"Farabi qishash maktubi"

Farabi is a writer
"Farabi alkatib"

There is no other word to describe writing activity except using KTB word.

Farabi,
Thank you for your input yours really also makes sense. So how would you translate 22 into English?

Do you know Hebrew and Quran Arabic well? I am asking because right now I wish I had your knowledge. May Allah reward you greatly.

Hi,
Well, I cant tell wheter you're beeing sarcastic or not ;D
...

Dear Farabi,

Just before I read your further comments let me assure you first that I am not sarcastic if you look at all my contributions here so far you would find no sarcasm just sincerity and kindness and great appreciation for every little bit of help to get my problem solved. )

In hebrew ketubim(written ketuvim) mean scriptures. I think it tied up with kitab on arabic...

...anyway, this is an old jewish song where Calf was pronounciated as Kelbi https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZN80LDku2A. It seems there is connection about "Vaw" pronounciated. It seems "Vaw" sometimes pronounced as "B" sometime as "W".

Farabi,

Your contribution is fantastic and it seems to be loaded with solutions. But my knowledge is very limited regarding what you are talking about. Please be so kind and give a broader and clearer explanation as well as how it could be applied with reference to Chapter 22 of Quran.

Peace Saad Bekker

Dhalika al-Kitabu la rayba fihi hudanl lil-muttaqina
This is the Book about which there is no doubt, a guidance for those conscious of Allah -

If the dispute is about Dhalika "that" or "this" that would be understandable, I think Dhalika means "that"
however the connotation is that the Quran and the "Book" are part and parcel of one another, one being
close i.e., "this" (what you have with you i.e., the Quran) and "that" being the broader book which the
Quran is part of i.e., 43/4). Therefore "this" is a better syntactical fit for 2/2 IMHO. Arabic speakers may
have a better understanding than my own.

Allah knows best.

God bless you

peace

Thank you too Hawk,

But what you explained is exactly my problem

1. If it says "That Book" then the question is which book is being referred too?

2. And if in fact it says "This Book..." it can not refer to the Quran because all reasonable and realistic evidence points to the fact that the Verses of the Quran which were only revealed as needed over a 23 year period were not yet compiled as a book and the logical deduction would be to say that the Quran, which we have today, was not revealed by Allah, do not represent Mohammed's revelation from Allah and was in fact only written and compiled later to create the impression that Muslims also have a Book like the Christians have a Bible, and by doing so the writers and compilers did not realize how they gave there hidden agenda away.

Now, to us as Muslims this idea seems absurd but is it? However, this is not the debate and discussion now what I am very sincerely trying to focus on, and that is why I appreciate your contribution too, is what is the meaning of the word "kitabun" as used in the Quran, and more important, which book does Chapter 22 refer to.

Because no matter which way I move with this challenge, I find myself painted into a corner.

... How would you explain the linguistic interlocking of Quran? Many topics are repeated in separate chapters. ...

Running,
Thankyou for your explanation,
I am pondering on it.

But just a little off the point under discussion when I first in 2007 as sincere Revert read the Quran fast and in a short period of time I got the distinct impression that it is actually nothing more than a compilation of essays. My first thoughts when I saw all the repetitions were Someone one day wanted to compile a Book for the Muslims to have one like the Christians and decided to get a number of people to write some essays and then just compiled it. The subject they had to write about could even have been "Allah's revelation to Mohammed."

Do you think my first impressions were far fetched?

Peace Saad Bekker

There were scribes that recorded what they heard, and the original records of Jesus cannot be found.

(Muhammad received revelation in his tongue)

43/3 Surely We have made it an Arabic Quran that you may understand.

(Quran part of another book)

43/4 And indeed it is, in the Mother of the Book with Us, exalted and full of wisdom.

Not yet in book form

Say Whoever is the enemy of Jibreel-- for surely he revealed it to your heart by Allah's command,
verifying that which is before it and guidance and good news for the believers.

Now the question begs, is there a book?

Now the Quran is a book, I have one right here, its not a cat or a bird it's a book, however
the transmission from the Angel to Muhammad was not a book but the revelation which was later
put in book form.

God bless you

peace

Thank you Hawk99,

Your explanation is reasonable and clear. So, how would you then translate Surah 22?

Salam and Peace,

what is underlined is only conjecture, no where in the Great Reading you find such assertion/statement!

The word Quran root Qaf-Ra-hamza, means reading, Quran means Great Reading, or endless Reading.

While Kitabun, is based on root Kaf-Ta-ba, to write, thus kitabun, something written, this imply The Quran was already written in prophete's time, many verses attest this.

Yes kitabun can mean scripture, ahlu alkitab means people of the scriptures, like christians, jewish, and so called muslims.

There was also a thread here that explain Kitab means more widely all Holy Books, because all holy books are in definitive one message, the same for everyone.

Peace

Good thank you Herbman,

Please honor me then also with your translation of "Surah" 2 verse 2 regarding the Arabic which seems to mean "That Book..." as well as your kind explanation of what "that Book refers to.

Harmony be with you Saad,

Well. My translation is entirely different from mainstream translation with another grammar system, so it looks nothing like the traditional one.

21 Be To Thereof
22 Which (to) cause knowledge to be (made) testament to bring affiliation to the conscious ones.

EDIT I realized that MOTAQEEN is rather marking consciousness ( Character Express(ed)) as in awareness, like opposite of being blind spiritually.

Sorry, I ran out of time to recheck this draft more than once, but according to me the discourse looks something like this. 21 is part of the scripture and is a secret towards interpreting the whole scripture, hard-coded there from the start without scholars being aware of it.

Have faith

Man of Faith, thank you but you lost me I think it is because you did it in a hurry.

Be so kind and explain it clearer I do not quite get the correlation between your translation here and the Arabic. ;D

My two cents on the matter.

...Therefor the whole debate wether Kitabun means book or not is highly irrelevant. Quran is still authentic and corresponding with original recitations.

I use the word recitation deliberately. Even when Quran was not revealed entirely, prophet Muhammad was reciting Gods Quran.

Running let me explain again what my problem is

1. We are taught that the Quran is the Speech of Allah.
2. If the Quran therefor contains Verse for Verse and Word for Word what Allah said to Mohammed then we run into this problem at the time of Revelation which is generally and realistically given as a period of 23 years, or even if it was revealed all at once, how could Allah already at the time of the revelation of any of the Verses contained in the Quran, have said to Mohammed, to recite to his people about a Book, because the Quran as Book only came into existance when it was bound long after Mohammed death.

Even the peaces of material which was collected containing the Verses for example could at no time before the book was bound, be called Book.

So for the Quran to refer to itself as a Book creates the idea that the compilers and binders of the Quran added or rewrote some Verses and inadvertently gave themselves away by the use of "Book" inside the same Book... or what do you think?

... And the translation is Monotheist Translation with modifications to correct some errors. It still contains myriad errors.

Have faith

Man of Faith,

I enjoy your inputs, but I do not quite understand why you recommend the Monotheist Translation because it seems not to reflect anything like your trains of thought?

Do I have the correct Monotheist Translation?

Knoweldge is acquired

1. By observation;

2. From a book.

Encyclopedia Britannica describes a book

"A book may be defined, therefore, as a written (or printed) message of considerable length, meant for public circulation and recorded on materials that are light yet durable enough to afford comparatively easy portability. Its primary purpose is to announce, expound, preserve, and transmit knowledge and information between people, depending on the twin faculties of portability and permanence. Books have attended the preservation and dissemination of knowledge in every literate society."

When a person-a teacher teaches the book, it means it is not his knowledge. He is only relaying it.

Mazhar,

But, from where I stand, as ex Christian, neither Jesus nor Mohammed had a Book from which to teach because

1. Then we would still have had Jesus' Book and not differing Gospels all trying to portray what Jesus most probably said.
2. We would have had Mohammed's Book from which he taught and we would not have had to struggle understanding the Quran and most of all we would not have had all these differing English translations...

Do'nt you think...?

Harmony be with you,

You are welcome. People generally have problems accepting what I am "preaching" on this forum since it is regarded as highly controversial. Basically it is like if I propagated a different faith. It has been called wishful thinking, and my own whims and desires and God knows what. If you ask me I am simply unbiased, ...

Thank you Man of Faith I think it is because I am unbiased as well, that your solution to my problem seems to fall exactly into place like a puzzle...

Please be so kind and also translate and explain Chapter 22 "dhlika l-kitbu" which seems to mean "That Book..." but is usually translated as "This Book..."

Harmony with you Saad,

Okay. Well, it is quite complicated because my stance is quite controversial. To me; refers to the substance of a book at best, like information.

In my further controversial arguments, I regard Arabic to consist of submeanings on morpheme level aka innate letter meaning. In this regard and after the current insight I have of the three letters forming the trilateral ketab it should literally be interpreted Cause Character With" which as a word would indicate "to inform somone" and as object noun (&#1576, i.e. the result of , simply "information", and as doer of is something. It could be used in relevance to a scribe, but the word does not mean that.

If you have a about something then you simply have the information about something. For example ahl alkitab suggests people who are adherents to the information which is with them. But it does not refer to a physical book but more of the knowledge of information.

Have faith

Thank you Man of Faith, your explanation is the simplest and makes the most sense to me. But how would you then now translate Chapter 143? Please help me with this.

A book has a title.
Experts and educationists suggest that the first rule in critical reading is that you must know what kind of a book is in your hand; and they say that we should know this as early in the process as possible, preferably before we begin to read. Many readers ignore titles and prefaces because perhaps they do not think it important to classify the book they are about to read. However, the author of a book facilitates its reader to know the kind of book he is being given by assigning it a title. Obviously, a descriptive and illustrative title will be considered the best for a reader to facilitate him immediately classify the book in hand.

1.. Importance of the title of a book Perception and meanings conveyed by the title Qur'aan

In Arabic, written one page, a letter is also "kitab".

9. Introduction of Qur'aan The Infinitely Reliable Book

Mazhar, thank you but I do not quite get the solution I need from your material.

You see, in my language, which is Afrikaans, the English term "Book" means a bound book with pages. So for me to be able to translate Kitabun into my language, I can not use the word Book or "Boek" as in Afrikaans, because it would mean that the Verses in the Quran which were not collected and bound together bfore Mohammeds death, already before being bound referred to itsels as a "Book" which I am sure is impossible. Or was the Verses of the Quran/Recitation not revealed over a period of 23 years?

I know you might not care what I have to say, but ketab does not mean book...

Salaam

Nooo! Man of Faith you are mistaken I am very much interested in what you have to say, no matter what it is. So please expand on what you said regarding "ketab does not mean book." That is exactly my problem if it does not mean book what do you say it means and why do you say so?

Please honor me with your comments.

In my studies of the Quran I have run into a dead end and I would appreciate your help please to solve this "riddle" In Chapter 413 the Quran refers to itself as a "kitabun," usually translated as "Book" and a view words later as "Quranan" which is usually translated as Quran. How can the Quran refer to itself as a Book whilst at the revelation of any of it's Verses, during the 23 years of revelation, of which this is one, it was not yet a Book? The word Quran I know actually means "Recited Verses" but what does the "Kitabun" mean? It certainly can not already mean Scripture because that is the same as Book or Scroll? Help anyone please.