Not doing good deeds is not the same as doing harmful deeds that harm the society. For example, one may not be doing good deeds, but at the same time not harming others either. The qur'aanic laws and punishments, are only formulated to protect and safeguard fundamental human rights and human interactions in a society. When one harms others in the society, for example killing others without just cause (i.e. other than self defense), stealing, committing pornography etc., then one is violating other's fundamental human rights and is to be punished according to the qur'aanic law.

can you provide verses to support this understanding? because to me, this is the understanding we (humans) are applying to the Quran, isolating religious laws from society laws. however, i dont thing this is support in the Koran. can someone provide verses? it not like i disagree with you (because i agree with your position), but i dont know if it is "Quranically" supported.

Also, does that mean laws that requires public punishment in the Quran should not be considered or included in verse 2256?

savage_carrot,

you cannot prove that FM is clarifying issues about Islam. and this is okay with you? Meaning, if it is doing damage you dont care? That seem illogical to me.

Deen is the whole shebang, not religion, not a personal matter.

i think we are making Deem a personal matter, but according to the Quran, everything within it as part of the deem (of religion as I call it) (933).

I understanding the concept of separating "chruch from state", personal matter of religion from the law of the land. But I wanted someone to prove in the Quran this as true (because i can find it). because technically, there is no separation with regards to the quran and religion from the state and personal matters. and if it isnt such a separation, what can we enforce?

I think the quran gives us religious laws AND (I dont know what to call them) societal laws. For example, the punishment for zina. You have to enforce a ban on pornography (taking zina to mean porn here).
So I'm not really sure what the quran means by that.

That was my understanding but i realize the Quran doesn't really make those distinction between society laws and morality laws. Unless someone can prove it does make such a distinction. OR unless we believe what should be enforce is all that GOD describe specific punishement for (ex. zina)? But even if we apply that rule, it is us that apply it that way, not the Quran. am im wrong?

So the question remain, can anything actually be enforce as law in the Quran? And what the Quran tell us to enforce (ex zina), should that be consider part of the religion?

I think if we were a society of believers, the law would be enforced upon all (law for theft, adultry etc.) I think stuff like prayer, fasting and charity are for the believers of the religion.

aalmakto, i was thinking that, but its we who are making these distinction, not the Quran. Unless someone can prove it other wise.

quran should be the law.
making the laws more or less is wrong.
"the right way is now distinct from the wrong way"

i understand the Quran can be consider the law, but my question is can one enforce it base on 2256? UNLESS religion is clearly define? Because the quran contain religious laws and according to verse 2256, religion cannot be force. So are they laws or choices? What should be enforce and what should be a choice etc?

Do anyone understand my question?

sigh we're back to it again. How many more times... If YOU think it's helped you great, if YOU don't know, asking people if it's helped them and making up your mind based on that is not really the way to go about it, because one doesn't have the whole picture. If you think it hasn't helped you, then thats fine too...it might've helped even ONE person out there. What about 19.org and it's forums? Have you any research on that? I'd like to read it, for research purposes.

why dont you conduct a survey then?

19.org purpose is to promote the 19 sign. Yuksel should do a survey as well?

what? do you think im care only about PM, EVERYONE should determine the performance of their actions and not have wish thinking.

No forum is meant to solve or create problems. It's meant as a place for discussion. That is all. Once again, it depends on individuals and what they take from it, whether it is a book, the tv or a forum.

Savage_carrot, i have alot of repsect for you but i have to disagree with this statement. forum are meant to help solve problems, educated, and answer questions THROUGH discussion. Are so how suggesting that free-minds.org has no purpose but just to have discussions? That doesn't sound logical especially base on the selective articles it presents on it main page.

Once again, find this "progressive Muslim movement" as defined above somewhere else. Better yet, ask people this, exactly how you defined this movement. Let's see who is going to say "yeah we did it 'cause tradition is so uncool".

please dont become sensitive like Wakas when i discuss PM. PM it is an organization. it a movement. free-mind.org is the project of proressivemuslims.org which as an agenda to http//progressivemuslims.org/organization.htm. Im not the one creating these labels. Some within the movement indeed reject anything traditional, but not all. Now im not against the movement or the organization. All im saying is, can you determine if the project, free-minds.org is solving problems or creating them? confusing issues or clarifying them? these questions carry no insult or attack, they are indeed valid questions. Dont you ask question like this before you participate or help organization or movements?

Those who barge in and accuse others of disobeying the koran and attacking others as bringing innovation and abandoning the Quran, practicing Zoroastrianism and shirk and following the pagan rituals are the same people when asked a couple of question have no answer themselves.

And those who barge in and accuse others of abandoning the Sunnah and the consensus of the Ummah and following vain desires and bringing in divisions and innovation into the religion and are deviant apostates when asked to provide evidence for any of this from the Koran are silent.

There is no way out of it. One side can not provide the answers and thus have no business accusing others, and the other side can not refute the authority of the Koran and thus have no business accusing others.

Bigmo for president!

wise words indeed. i think you have a good understanding

By Progressive Muslim i mean a movement to redefine islam. Thoes who say no ritual salat and only abandon traditional views SIMPLY because it is traditional (not if it is right or wrong). Such basis judgment is contra productive to progression.

In that case you and me are in agreement .... but you are going the wrong way about it, take a break.

that has been my case since the start. here is the problem, because i can be harsh, people think im "rankling" or somthing. that is not the case. and if you read the result of my survey, the majority agree with my view about consensus, progression and clarity on issues of islam with PM. http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=15692.0;attach=1275

what i want is information. i simply want to know if the progressive muslim movement is actually PROGRESSING? its that simply.

What we need to ask yourself is;

Is this forum actually solving problems or creating them?
Is the progressive Muslim movement actually solving problems or creating them? I think these are simply questions that can be answer.

however, when i ask that question, or make such statement, i am accuse of attention seeking or i need "to take a break". you know what i will post that in a thread

There is no way out of it. There are no answers to these questions. Why should we have to find the answers when the Koran didn't? Are we to be more concerned about these things than the Koran? You see once you take it upon yourself to answer these questions you are going to get sandwiched. You will never be consistent. The Koranist can never say they have the answers and the traditionalist are never going to be able to refute the Koran's authority. Thats the beef.

Bigmo, you are truly a smart person in my eyes. I couldn't have said it better myself. Thats why (to me) this "debate" and "re-definition" on salat is some what pointless. I realize what you have said about four to five years ago when i participate in this forum (and then decided to stop debating it). And to this date, no one has brought any tangible concert evidence on what salat is or is not. To me it just proves two things;

(1) "You will never be consistent." Everyone is using external source, from article, translations, science, life, opinions etc etc etc to understand the Quran. The difference is it some admit it, will other don't. Sunnis admit is BUT try to justify it. Those who claim "quran alone" simply don't admit it in my view.

(2) It proves the traditional and universal understanding of salat is not wrong. if so, GOD within the koran would have blatantly rejected that understanding and interpretations of it and not beat around the bush (2189). But it doesn't.

would you agree?

here are the survey result base on those you have participate so far (see attach PDF document). please review and make your own honestly opinion. peace everyone.

I too, have had my share of arguments with mods when I was a member, we made our peace and I realised that it really isn't what I was thinking. It took me some time to see where they were coming from, but I didn't start shooting myself in the foot during. I knew it is a forum with rules and if I didn't like it I could leave. It's a whole lot better having that choice, rather than getting banned...unless the member in question is a glutton for punishment (and yes, we've had those as wel

I will be the first to say anyone within this forum who expresses his views and opinions (with or without evidence) and is ban or subject to being ban for it is NOT justify unless his or her views are harmful. No one have proven to me why my statements and observations about "Progressive Muslims" and Free-minds.org having no consensus and no actual progression with regards to basic Quranic and submission religious elements are harmful. I think my statement actually bring benefit by forcing people to answer tough questions and objectively analyzing the organization and its forum. Honestly, shouldnt WE be concern of what harm or good this forum is presenting to OUR Muslim community? Do you truly care? Don't you want to know? Well I do.

But......

?He who wants a rose must respect the thorn.?

so I guess I have to respect the rules although I feel the laws can be apply unjustly. With that being said, Savage Carrot, i will make my peace.

Tick tock...

tickie tock

If God wanted to, He couldn't have made sure the Koran answers all these question tooth and nail. He could have made sure there can only be one interpretation for these rituals. But the Koran did not. So maybe there is a wisdom in all this.

that is my point. there is a great abuse of the "quran alone" term and the Quran claims of it being fully detailed. people selectively apply there intrepreatation of these two concept then accuse others of not following the Koran alone.

I not against different level of understanding. I remember there was an individual within this forum who believe everything in the Quran was symbolic (from messenger to angels etc). Now to me that was very extreme, but it doesnt mean his understand doesn't bring some benefits. So im not against different level of understanding. But to subjectively apply the criteria of "quran alone" is wrong. SO made made this challenge.

ow, say for example YOU SHM, come on the forum and start telling us...you've got a hidden agenda, I just know it...look see there that member Ms. Scarlet posted that the bustle is cooler! And Mr. Mustard said the same thing earlier in the form of an article gasp...etc etc (just run a parallel to whatever has been said here). Lots of members then take it upon themselves to tell you what they think, how you might be mistaken and what it might be. Okay, that's that right? But no, now YOU take it upon yourself to post about it every opportunity you get...even though nothing changes from the last time you brought it up...See what I mean? This is annoying, it is harrasment. It is liable to get you kicked out of MVD and there might be no more Scarlet O'Hara dollies for you, ever.

Yes i may be persistent, but if you believe people are attacking you or others unjustly, wouldnt you do what you can to stop it, or to a degree bring awareness of it? that is what i am doing. If i feel Wakas is acting like President Bush in Iraq with regards to this forum, I will make noise about it until he stops or someone stop me. To me Wakas is Bush and the moderators are UN Council if you understand my point.

But honestly savage_carrot, I hope you a lead moderator ). Your points are truly valid. Even more reason for you should participate in my survey. please do.

I am in favor that you should be banned.Why do you ask such difficult questions
?

Just collect statistical information. im a man of performance management. i need to know if something is working as it should. i want to know if this forum is performing etc etc.

I don't know who you mean by progressive Muslims. The ones I know of them are the ones who think sex is halal if its between consenting adults and eating pork is OK and so on. You know, liberals. they used to have a website called Muslimswakeup. They say they went down after a few good years.

By Progressive Muslim i mean a movement to redefine islam. Thoes who say no ritual salat and only abandon traditional views SIMPLY because it is traditional (not if it is right or wrong). Such basis judgment is contra productive to progression.

No one can answer your questions;
--None of them except sister Samia know how to consult an arabic dictionary.
--None of them without any exception knows the intricacies of Arabic language

the purpose was to prove that everyone uses external source to understand and implement the Quran guidance. this is facutal. IS that against the Quran, I dont think so. So people should NOT develop a habit of accusing others of not using the "Quran alone" unless they themselves can admit to the follow question.

Aslo Allen, base on your tone of your posting, i will encourage to participate on the survey, should I get ban.

The stars are really just the number of posts you've made on the forum. They start from 1 star to 5 stars. You have 2, because you have under 500 posts, if you go over 1000, you'll have 4 stars and 2000 for 5 stars. It's not a rating system in any way.

thanks for explaining.

I find that sad really. Like it's a popularity contest to be in a forum. It doesn't matter what you say, as long as people don't like you, you're done. No, here we have rules.

to me I dont really view it as a popularity contest, however base on you explain, i understand why that feature was remove. I was thinking about how can one help eliminate the absolute authority of moderator over members and have more democracy. I thought such a rating system would help.

Dear SHM,

It took atleast 2-3 years before Ahmed Baghat was banned and other rude people like him also took a long time before banning.

Till now, the main focus of your posts is yourself and how you will be banned because of your thoughts. It is a self-fulfilling prophecy, it has nothing to do with the FM board.

Aleikum Salaam

If it is a self-fulfilling prophecy, please voice that opinion in my survey. how can i deny statistical evidence?