Peace Ayman,

I am starting to get more and more convinced that fasting in "shahr ramadan"/"scorching full moon" is for 3 days. To the naked eye, the moon one day before the full moon, the full moon, and the moon one day after the full moon have almost the same appearance and the difference is negligible. This would fit perfectly with "whoever of you witnesses the full moon shall fast IT" and "ayyaam ma3doodat"/"a few number of days" (2184, 2185), and will leave no ambiguity whatsoever.

Peace

truthseeker11

salam,

There is a fair of amount of reasonability behind your assertion, we do need to look more in this direction too, lets see it..

peace

siki

Hi siki,

Where is your evidence of Jewish people fasting a whole month during summer?

2183 O you who have believed, decreed upon you is fasting as it was decreed upon those before you that you may become righteous

Peace

peace

I never said that the jews, or we have to fast for a duration of one month, I believe in a ten day fast

siki

Layth, Ayman, Wakas, Nadia, Farida, Huruf, Noon, Saima and all the oldies, Salam D it's been a long time.

Peace Ayman,

b) the fast of summer creates hardship (contrary to what God tells us) as people who would work in the open would suffer;
c) the summer solstice has the longest day of the year (northern hemisphere) which would take the fast to extreme hours in some habitable regions.

Regards,

Brother layth, my opinion regarding your above assertions, are

2-184........ But fasting is the best for you, if you only knew.

Fasting is for us, probably good for our body health, most likely some cycle gets triggered by a certain duration of deprivation, and that duration has to be long enough to bring in a certain hardship. If we look at the starting and ending markers for fast , it becomes obvious that the earliest possible marker was chosen and described in detail for starting fast.

2-187....You may eat and drink until the white thread of light becomes distinguishable from the dark thread of night at dawn.

and then the period was stretched to the Max by using the last possible Visible Marker, LAYAL, ,
Selection of above markers over (the easier and more obvious) sunrise to sunset is deliberate, probably to stretch the duration of fast to the Maximum.

The winter fast theory which makes fasting easy, in a day of the shortest duration, does not fall in line with the spirit of the most likely intentions of the designer. On the other hand, it dovetails smoothly with the longest days after summer solstice

Yet another indicator, is the command/compulsion, in 2-185.... Those of you who witness this (Full Red moon of the Heat) shahar... ,

Above ensures that, one will Fast only when this full red moon is available in one's geographical location. This is meant to preclude the possibility of a coordinated fast in Northern and southern hemispheres. People above equator fast in summers around longest possible hot days, and people down under would end up fasting in their summers on longest days 6 months later/earlier.

Peace

Siki

Burnian,

After researching on this topic for some years, My recommendation is

Fasting is abstaining from eating and drinking, not talking ( which is very hard specially for a woman ;D) so,

Fast for consecutive 10 days each year, starting after the first full moon, immediately after summer solstice ,

Fast from first light till the darkness of night ( not till sun sets)

You don't have to actually witness the moon to start fast, you may start from the predicted date of full moon of scorching heat in your area (witnessing the shahar ur Ramadan, actually means ," when ever is shahar ur Ramadan in your geographical location", that means, the people in north, and down under should not practice fast at the same time. Residents of northern hemisphere do it on the longest and hottest days in June/July, and southern hemisphere would observe in their longest/hottest period, which is some time in Dec/Jan)

Sex is allowed after breaking fast through the night, during this 10 day period.

Don't bother about past what is passed is passed, if you are still bothered, just give away some money for charity.

peace
siki

5-6, spells out,

you are in clean state, but have to wadu every time before every salat

you are in clean state, but cant find water, you can salat without wadu.

you are in dirty state, four conditions,(listed) wadu will suffice to purify yourself before salat,

you are in dirty state, four conditions, and you cant find water to carry out wadu, but this time no concession granted to you, You have to carry out some kind of cleansing with clean dry soil.

you are in extremely dirty state , janaba , which is you are in after sexual intercourse resulting into discharge of semen, wadu is not enough , you have to take a bath,

you are in a janaba state,you cant pray untill and unless you take a complete body bath, salat prohibited

if you are travelling and get into janaba state, and unable to take a bath due to any reason, a concession is granted in 4-43( illa abri sabeelin) to you, and you can go ahead with salat, do the wadu or if no water do the tayammam at least.

(4-43 explains what is taharoo" in 5-6 by stating, "that taharoo by Ghusal", in addition ,4-43 also adds an exception for a traveler to perform salat in janaba state if he cant find water)

above is what quran says regarding wadu , nothing more nothing less,

peace

siki

Salam

ZINA

public display of sexual act is very grave in GOD's eyes and is punishable even if the sex is legal 24-2,3 (sexual mounting witnessed by at least 4 people)

Adultry is dealt in 24-6 to 9

In Adultery there is a hurt party , a ZOAJ, who being the nearest could be aware of a foul activity, but may not be able to produce additional witnesses.

There is procedure outlined in, 24-6 to 9, and society is to take appropriate action which could be their separation if she/he does not want to be with the spouse anymore because of betrayal (or any other action if the socity has formulated some laws/punishments to deal with such activites)

And if the blamed party lies, to avoid separtion or a punishment (24- it becomes God's business. And if it is a false accusation, it again becomes GOD"s business.( 24-7)

see, 24-6 onward , it is accusation, not accusation for Zina, , nor is accusation defined.
As she/he may have become aware of/witnessed some kind of illicit sexual activity of his spouse and that may be is enough for her/him to call off a relationship.

Fornication

Fornication ( illegal sexual mounting) is not singled out , but is dealt under Fahishats, which could be all kind of illegal sexual acts up to fornication.

This is dealt under 4-15,

If there are 4 reporting that a certain woman is up to some illicit/illegal sexual activity, source is to be capped ( house arrest till she dies)

OR,

GOD will handle it, if GOD finds that her behaviour/state of mind has improved and she is not likely to divulge into any such activity anymore. HE (GOD) will arrange for her freedom. (4-15)

Again , There is no Zina here .

peace

siki

Peace

1. Zina, is a (legal or illegal) sexual mounting act witnessed by at least 4 people, that means God does not want such a performance in public.

2. What you do in private is your business if no body is hurt (fornication) but there are guidelines by Almighty and system repercussions, if you aren't legal in private .

3. What you do in private becomes society's business if some one is hurt (adultery) and also becomes God's business if you want to continue hurting by illegal sex and lies.

4. " Fwahish "( Fahishat) constitute Illegal sexual activities starting from anything (even a sexual chat) to actual mounting and you are advised to refrain from them.

5. For "Fwahish", the proven opportunity provider has to be kept in check till she dies or if her state of mind changes, and then the God will take care (becomes God's business)
   (surprisingly there is no remedial measure for the opportunity grabber ;D )

Now, whats legal sexual activity? that's what we have to derive from Quran by debating.

siki

First of all the link you provided doe not open with me so maybe you can appaste what is in it. maybe that website is blocked where I am.

The question is not about breaching a contract or not. The question here is about accountability. Fornification by definition is sex between two parties who have no obligation with another party. Its really nobody's business. Freedom is sancrosanct in the Quran. This is their choice. The Quran gave people the freedom to disbelieve if they wish so we must respect the freedom the Quran gave. That is why the Quran can not mean fornification. If you read the verse in surat al nour its talking mostly about slandering. it always speaks of spouses so its about adultery and charges of adultery. The Quran does not give people the right to betray another party or slander them. Fornification has no bearing on anyone and its the parties involved own choice. We may say its a sin, but we can not include that as a crime that can be punished. This goes against the whole legal foundation of the Quran.

logical

siki

Salam

study of all occurences of MMA in Quran leaves very little chance for them to be anything else but "concubines"

1. The category is at par with Azwaj for legal sex ( 73-30, 23-5)

2. The category is legal for sex without dower/Ajar (4-24)

3. The category is not bounded to be acquired through contract " NKH" anywhere in Quran.

4. They are being recommended as a last option(4-25) (and that also only the young ones) for NKH, if No one is willing to give you his/her daughter because of your financial situation (You can bring them home with much less money)

5. Socially, they had an unequal (less) status in comparison to other women of society (16-71) and (30-2

6. little chance for them to be of category who have fled their disbelieving husbands (60-10) because they do contain young unmarried ones too (4-25) Moreover, God the most compassionate / merciful will logically, never socially downgrade someone who has abandoned her family and immigrated for HIS sake.

7. Prophet Mohammad at a certain stage was ordered not to marry or change any more of his women, but was allowed to have more of MMA (33-52)

Were they only women, or males as well ? where did they come from and what constitutes a modern MMA? the subject is open for debate.

peace

siki

Nothing else is the possibility. What you think could be another possibility?

Mazhar Salam

I think the term " Ma Malakat Emnakum" has an idiomatic use throughout Quran, had it been what you are advocating, then your daughters and some time sisters/mothers/aunts would be included in this category too, which obviously cannot be, because of 70-30/23-5,6

peace
siki

salam

is a verbal sentence, it is not a noun restrictively denoting some specific-tangible object, or person-male or female.

It refers to a completed action that yields a situation and relationship between the Subject of Verb and its Object which might be an object, a land, a person woman or man, group of men or women linked back to General Relative Noun.

yes, could be a possibility.

In 425 it is referring to those women upon whom you gained the authority and responsibility for administering their affair in the capacity of they being your house-maids.

Can't understand above, if they are house maids , where did they come from ? and how come someone whom we have employed as a house maid can be used for free sex too? (as per 70-30 )

The text of Qur'aan is succinct par excellence. It expresses with brevity and clarity, with no wasted words. Here, are beyond the reach of a man to seek them in marriage. They include the women of independent families and those believing married women who have taken assylum, by using an active particple as adjective which becomes a descriptive term for .

your explanation of the term Mohsinnate is very vague, kindly elaborate.
The term "mohsinnate" has to have one consistent meaning in all occurrences, and you have not explained the contradiction in 4-24 and 4-25 as per your understanding.

peace
siki

Mazhar salam

I am alright, and how are you doing? still in islamabad?

Read your first post, that seemed on track, was looking forward to analysis of further ayas, but second post seems to go hay wire.

what you are saying is , that MMA are the 60-10 women , but fatayat of MMA in 4-25 are MMa who become House Maids, am i right?

If so, how come?

Fatayats are ( in my opinion) the "young ones" out of the women of a certain/any category.

peace

siki

Dear Mazhar
salam

I appreciate your serious effort to resolve the riddle regarding MMA, however I have some observations,

1. According to your understanding , MMA are the women which are being mentioned in 60-10 as the ones who have fled their disbeliving husbands. These women are actually more burdensome for believers to marry because, not only one has to pay them dowers, but their ex husbands have also to be compensated.

How come they are being recommended as a less burdensome alternate in 4-25?

( 4-25, if you cannot afford to marry a believing" Mohsinnate" then marry a young believing among MMA.......)

2. You have translated" Mohsinnate" as married women, (unavailable women for marriage) in 4-24 , but right in the next aya 4-25 you have translated same term "Mohsinate" as"unmarried women" (available women for marriage)

The meanings are exactly opposite and hence can not be understood like that.The term "Mohsinnate" has to have one consistent meaning throughout.

peace

siki

Peace

Kindly read 33-50

The thing to note in this aya is " cousin marriage was allowed " That means , it was banned previously, word immigration tells us that it was probably allowed due to scarcity of believing women, however this was not banned later, and also , these women are not part of the 14 Haram women listed in 4-22.23

So, taking clues form Quran, I would deduce,

Cousin marriage should be avoided , but is not Haram, and one can/should marry a cousin, only if it becomes unavoidable.

siki

Peace Emil

The "thahara" in 56 means purify/clean and "bathe" is a forced meaning by the translators.

Also the most distorted meaning for "janaba" can not mean "intercourse"

peace brother

how are you?

I was just browsing through when i came across your post, i would like to clarify;

I agree that " THaarOO" means cleaning, or purifing, but, 5-56 created a question,"

"THharrooo" HOW? This was clarified in 4-43,

Purifying/cleaning is to be done by "Ghusal"---- Not only that, but an exception was also given to" ABRI saebellin" (Traveller) If one is traveling and enters a state of junnab , he can pray without taking a bath, with wadu only.

siki

In 1952, Noah S. ?Soggy? Sweat, Jr., a member of the Mississippi House of Representatives, was asked about his position on Alcohol. Here?s how he answered

"If you mean whiskey, the devil?s brew, the poison scourge, the bloody monster that defiles innocence, dethrones reason, destroys the home, creates misery and poverty, yea, literally takes the bread from the mouths of little children; if you mean that evil drink that topples Christian men and women from the pinnacles of righteous and gracious living into the bottomless pit of degradation, shame, despair, helplessness, and hopelessness, then, my friend, I am opposed to it with every fiber of my being"

"However, if by whiskey you mean the oil of conversation, the philosophic wine, the elixir of life, the ale that is consumed when good fellows get together, that puts a song in their hearts and the warm glow of contentment in their eyes; if you mean Christmas cheer, the stimulating sip that puts a little spring in the step of an elderly gentleman on a frosty morning; if you mean that drink that enables man to magnify his joy, and to forget life?s great tragedies and heartbreaks and sorrow; if you mean that drink the sale of which pours into our treasuries untold millions of dollars each year, that provides tender care for our little crippled children, our blind, our deaf, our dumb, our pitifully aged and infirm, to build the finest highways, hospitals, universities, and community colleges in this nation, then my friend, I am absolutely, unequivocally in favor of it"

siki

and since it is damaging to the credibility of Pakistan as a Sovereign Nation, why do they not tell the truth about it? ???

Every one knows, that CIA is the master mind behind Pakistani Taliban, who are carrying out suicide bombings and sabotage activities to destabilize the country. Is Pakistan telling the truth to the world or, confronting USA?

As for as telling the truth on Osama's killing, it is a catch 22 situation for ISI, they have some guilty conscious (Probably, protective hibernation was provided to the families of "martyred agents". One of Bin Laden's wife/family being among them, is a strong possibility)

If they refute, OBAMA would say, "How do you know? you claim to be unaware of his presence? I would settle for incompetence any time and let Obama cheer his toast, than bear the accusations of betrayal (because the implications of complicity are too dreadful to contemplate)

So, looks like they chose lesser evil.

siki

siki, how are you privy to such information?

some first hand inside info.

And now it is getting to the media as well , check this out

http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NxGdProW-k

siki

They claim,

A chopper went down because it could not hover due relatively hot temp/thin air (miscalculation) rotfl

If they made this mistake, Imagine, what would happen to all the routine chopper take offs/hovers, everyday, we should have 1000,s of helicopters crashes every day due this reason alone.

Every one knows that Abbottabad is a hill station, and is famous for its relatively cool temperatures , Not Hot.

Moreover, any helicopter if it can take off with a given load, would become lighter after an hour of flight ( burning a significant amount of carried fuel) and hence would be able to hover much easily.

This is ABC, ask any aviator.

siki

First, read the official disclosure of the details of mission here
http//news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110517/ap_on_re_us/us_bin_laden_raid

They officially claim and authenticate, that two stealth modified black hawk choppers were sent, along with a pair of Chinooks.
Chinook is one of the largest cargo helicopter in the world with a radar cross section of a large airliner.

If i want to carry out a mission stealthily and don't want to be picked up by radars, why would i send Chinooks with stealthy black hawks, which would guarantee a radar pick up of the incoming raid ???

Chinook can pick up truck loads , a few women and children were nothing, why would osama's wives and children be left behind ( when, now they are asking pak authorities to gain access for interrogations) SO , the official story is nothing but bull shit.

siki