I think you have to understand means "unzila" in 2185. "Naazil" does not mean send down for the first time as this word is commonly used for rain.

BTW, I have no proof that AlQuraan was send down for the first time in Arabia or to Mohammed.

Hence, fasting has nothing to do with nazala of AlQuraan, inshaAllah.

Salaam brother

2185 The -shahr- (full moon) of Ramadan, in which the Quran was sent down/revealed as a guide to the people and a clarification of the guidance and the criterion. Therefore, those of you who witness the -shahr- (full moon) shall fast therein. Whoever is ill or traveling, then the same number from different days. God wants to bring you ease and not to bring you hardship; and so that you may complete the count, and glorify God because He has guided you, that you may be thankful.

In general the word -unzila- is translated as -sent down- or -revealed-.
Several verses of the Koran mention that water is sent down, for instance in the form of rain.
That does not contradict the reading of verse 2185 as was suggested.

122 We have sent it down an Arabic Quran/recitation, perhaps you will reason.

It is true - we do not have 100 percent evidence that the actual sending down on the person that received the Koran happened in Arabia at that moment.
Though there is enough circumstantial evidence found in the Koran to assume that Mohammad was in an arid area on the Northern Hemisphere. I do not have any evidence that shows otherwise. Hence the first full moon after the summersolstice of the Northern Hemisphere seems to be the right one.
There is no indication that Mohammed lived in a maritime west-coast climate, that is one of the rare climates that has August as the warmest period of the year.

Salaam,
Truthseeker

Disclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.

After lookin at this link http//www.farmersalmanac.com/calendar/moon-phases/ I see what your talking about, tonight it will be 98 % tomorrow 100% and Wednesday it will be 98%.

So the fast shouldnt actually start on the actual full moon but what it appears to be.

Agreed - one can witness the full moon if it appears to be full with the naked eye. This is a natural way of using the moon as a calendar.
A moon can be never perfectly full as seen from the earth, because only a lunar eclipse would be the perfect balanced full moon.

Salaam,
Truthseeker

Disclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.

The Full moon here in Central time zone USA is on July 3rd at 015154 pm , which means the actual siting want be till Tuesday evening/night(night of destiny/power?), making Wednesday the 4th the first daylight period to fast. Three day periods here would be 4th,5th,& 6th.The moon want be full here on the 2nd, just the nights of 3rd,4th,& 5th. And cant fast the 3rd as the fullmoon isnt until almost 2 pm in the afternoon.

Seen with the naked eye, the full moon has a duration of three days, with a visibility of at least 98,5 percent. Probably also near your place at the evening of 2th July the moon can be witnessed as full - with the naked eye. So you could fast the 3th,4th and 5th of July.
The -scientific full moon- lasts only a few minutes - but with the naked eye it can be witnessed three days, the difference between 98.5 and 99.9 is hardly noticeable. Actually the real scientific full moon would be a lunar eclipse - so this means that the moon is never exactly seen as full.
The 6th of July according to the tables, the moon will be shrunk to about 95 percent visibility and is not full anymore.

Salaam,
Truthseeker

Disclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.

Salaam JKRethland

According to the Bible Moses, Elijah and Jesus fasted for 40 days and nights, these where special people with special assignments.
Nowhere these ways of fasting are prescribed in the Bible for the ordinary believers.

The Jewish people have only an obligatory fast of 24 hours - yaum kipoor-, Christians actually have no obligatory fast prescribed in the Bible.

2278 ... It is He Who has elected you to carry the message and has placed no hardship in religion, the Creed of your father Abraham ...

Seen with the naked eye, the full moon has a duration of three days, with a visibility of at least 98,5 percent.
So one can witness the full moon this year (here in Western-Europe) at the evening of 2th of July, then the night of the fast begins (2187) to prepare for the fast, the actual fasting can be then at 3th,4th and 5th of July.

If you would fast the 6th of July - then the moon is not full anymore when seen with the naked eye - it has about only 95 percent visibility, then you would go across the time-frame as given in verse 2185 - to fast the duration of the -scorching full moon- itself, not any moment longer.

Salaam,
Truthseeker

Disclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.

We fasted in May 2012 on 5th, 6th and 7th because of the full moon on those three days during the hottest month This was our second year that we fast three days in hottest month as per Allah's guidance.

Salaam Mmkhan

As far as I know the hottest month on the Northern Hemisphere is in general

continental climate - July, because of the summersolstice
maritime climate - August, because of the gradual warming of the sea during summer

• of course there can be local differences.

But these differences over the world seem not to be relevant for the communal fast because of following

According to verse 2185, the fasting is linked to the arrival of the Quran, the fasting can be a celebration for the Guidance that has been received.

2185 The -shahr- (full moon) of Ramadan, in which the Quran was sent down as a guide to the people and a clarification of the guidance and the criterion. Therefore, those of you who witness the -shahr- (full moon) shall fast therein. Whoever is ill or traveling, then the same number from different days. God wants to bring you ease and not to bring you hardship; and so that you may complete the count, and glorify God because He has guided you, that you may be thankful.

This is for me the main reason that all believers over the world can abstain at the same days all over the world - namely the full moon when the Quran has arrived, most probably that was the -scorching moon- in Arabia.
In Arabia the most reddish full moon, during the most hot period, is the first one after 21th of June, this year 3th,4th and 5th of July.

Salaam,
Truthseeker

Disclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.

Concerning the duration and timing of the fast following threads can be useful to read

duration http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9600410.0

a fasting-period of three days - this year at 2th, 3th and 4th of July, might be most probable according to the literal reading of relevant verses, especially verse 2185

correction

a fasting-period of three days - this year at 3th, 4th and 5th of July, might be most probable according to the literal reading of relevant verses, especially verse 2185.
These three days have a moon that is at least 98.5 percent visible.

Salaam,
Truthseeker

Disclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.

Salaam JKRethland

It is a good approach to respect each others reading of the book, but may be the subject of the communal fast should not be confusing at all.

2278 ... It is He Who has elected you to carry the message and has placed no hardship in religion, the Creed of your father Abraham ...

• A fasting of 30 or 31 days during the hottest period of the year - I do not think this is compatible with verse 2278.
  May be rich people who do not have to work hard during the daytime and have airco could fast without too much hardship a longer period of time, this is not so for the not so rich people.

2184 a limited number -ma'doodatin- of days ...

For the people who missed one or more days, they should fast other days and fulfill the count - a count until three is a count.
The central word is -ma'doodatin-, the duration of the fast and of the full moon.
The Koran is perfect and clear and gives the meaning of this word.

2203 And remember Allah during numbered -ma'doodatin- days. Then whoever hastens in two days - there is no sin upon him; and whoever delays - there is no sin upon him...

From this verse we can learn that -ma'doodatin- is as a standard the number three.

324 That is because they say, "Never will the Fire touch us except for numbered -ma'doodatin- days," and they were deluded in their religion by what they were inventing.

This verse may relate to a possible mockery concerning the christian belief that the prophet Isa entered hell for a period of three days,

I can hardly imagine that one would say that one would accept to stay in the fire for a period of more than a few days - I do not think 30 or 31 is relevant here.

Anyway I wish you and other readers a blessed fasting period.

Salaam,
Truthseeker

Disclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.

Concerning the duration and timing of the fast following threads can be useful to read

duration http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9600410.0

a fasting-period of three days - this year at 2th, 3th and 4th of July, might be most probable according to the literal reading of relevant verses, especially verse 2185

timing http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9600827.0

the fasting is connected to the remembrance of the arrival of the Koran according to verse 2185, this is at the same time for the believers living on the northern and southern hemisphere, the -shahr ramadan- where the Koran arrived - in Arabia.

salaam,
Truthseeker

Disclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.

time of the year - bump

Truthseeker

Disclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.

time of the year - bump

Truthseeker

Disclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.

I don?t believe that the earth will change into another earth since this would contradict with Sura 1972.

1972 Then We will save those who were righteous, and We leave the wicked in it on their knees. ( The wicked are resurrected on earth and they will remain on earth)

Remember that we will be resurrected ON EARTH. So if the unrighteous are left behind on earth it would imply that this current earth will house the unrighteous. This universe will become hell which is what may happen on the day of resurrection.

Also don?t forget Sura 6917 ( there will be eight universes and not seven) This will imply a new heaven and earth. And since there will be a new heaven and earth what do you think will happen with this one which the unrighteous will remain in??

If you check on http//corpus.quran.com, there you can see that the translation of Muhammad Asad of verse 1448 seems to be the most accurate, the word -tubadallu- means to change, not to exchange and not to substitute.

1448 on the Day when the earth shall be changed into another earth, as shall be the heavens and when shall appear before God, the One who holds absolute sway over all that exists.

Verse 6917 can have multiple meanings, anyway the verse does not say that the believers will go from Earth to another one.
The multiple heavens can be multiple universes or dimensions.
Verse 3969 states the Earth will shine with the light of its Lord ?, so the Earth will be raised onto a higher level of existence - together with those people who will inherit the Earth - 3974.
The wording -inherit- is informative, one can only inherit something that is already existing. This supports the point of view that the existing Earth will change into a Paradise and will not be exchanged.

Verse 1972 seems to adress only a special group of people - the doubters of the resurrection. Verses 1966 until 1970 give this context. Only those will be brought near the border of hell - by passing by it.

Verses 735 until 750 give more comprehensive information.
Verse 736 states that the rejecters of the signs - not all human beings- will go into the fire.
Verse 738 confirms that only a special group of people will enter the fire.
Verse 746 informs that there will be a group of people who are on the -araf-, who are between Hell and Heaven, possibly verse 1972 refers to this place between Hell and Heaven. Only the wicked of them will go into Hell according to verse 1972, according to verse 749 the people of the -araf- will enter the Garden.

I do not know of any verse that states that the righteous people will be taken away from Earth.
Neither can I find a verse that supports the point of view that Hell is on Earth or that Earth will change into a Hell.
Verse 1847 is translated in different ways - the Earth will be barren is not the only possible translation.

• The Earth will be a leveled plain, the mountains have vanished - http//corpus.quran.com.

The following verse?
8923 Hell on that day is brought. On that day the human being will remember, but how will the remembrance now help him?

This above verse doesn?t necessarily mean that hell already exists NOW. It can also mean that hell will occur on the day of resurrection. Two separate interpretations can be concluded from this verse and not just one. Try to be a bit boarder in your interpretations. Remember that chaos is hell. Chaos is what will occur on the Day of Resurrection. Hence it is in context with what the Quran says ? Every single one of you must pass by it. This for your Lord is a certainty that will come to pass.? . Remember that we will see or pass by hell which will only occur when we are resurrected.

3131 Be aware of the fire that has been prepared for the ingrates.

From this verse we can learn that Hell has already been made - so it can be brought near to the people on Earth during the Day of Judgement - 8923.
Verse 8924 informs us that the Hell is brought near to a special group of people - the ones who did not prepare for the Day of Judgement.

21101 behold, as for those for whom ultimate good has already gone forth from Us these will be kept far away from that
21102 no sound thereof will they hear; and they will abide in all that their souls have ever desired.

My main-point is to show that the idea that Earth will be turned into the place of Hell is not compatible with verses of the Koran. This negative attitude towards Earth could lead to conscious or sub-conscious contempt of the precious creation we live on.
According to the Koran the Earth has a very bright future, human beings have to take care of her in the best way.

Salaam,
Truthseeker

Disclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.

I don't believe that the earth will be destroyed but it will be replaced.

1448 The day the earth is replaced with another earth, as are the heavens, and they will appear before God, the One, the Irresistible.

I have not read the article but I am in agreement since careful study shows that everyone will see hell prior to entering paradise. However just because you see hell and pass by it doesn't mean that you will experience the effects of hell If it is interpreted like this it will be consistent with the Quran.

Also everyone will be resurrected ON EARTH...

6913 When the horn is blown once.
6914 The earth and the mountains will be removed from their place and crushed with a single crush.
6915 On that day the unavoidable event will come to pass.
6916 The heavens will be torn, and on that day it will be flimsy.

1847 The day We move the mountains, and you see the earth barren, and We gather them, not leaving out anyone of them.

When we are resurrected the righteous will be saved and the unrighteous will remain....

1971 Every single one of you must pass by it. This for your Lord is a certainty that will come to pass. (this will occur on the day of resurrection on earth)

1972 Then We will save those who were righteous, and We leave the wicked in it on their knees.

My interpretation On the day of resurrection, the righteous will be resurrected on earth and saved whilst the unrighteous will remain on earth(or what's left of it) This will be there hell since they choose not to acknowledge God's signs.

A new heaven and earth will then be brought . Thus God will have eight universes....

6917 The angels will be on its borders, and the throne of your Lord will be carried above them by eight. -edip/layth
6917 The angels will be all around, and Your Lord's dominion will then encompass eight- Rashad Khalifa
6917 and the angels at its ends, and, above them, eight will bear aloft on that Day the throne of thy Sustainer's almightiness - Muhammad Asad

Please take into consideration that the Quran says that there are seven heavens (universes)

6512 God who created seven heavens and the same number of earths. His command descends between them, that you may know that God is capable of all things, and that God has encompassed all things with His knowledge.

If there are eight heavens on the day of resurrection it would imply that a new heaven and earth is created and that the old one (which we were resurrected on) will still exist. It is my belief that this eighth universe will house the righteous. Hence the righteous shall inherit the NEW earth.

1448 The day the earth is replaced with another earth, as are the heavens, and they will appear before God, the One, the Irresistible.

Dear Kevin

Vers 1448 can also be read as - the Earth will change into a new Earth.

Muhammad Asad's translation
1448 on the Day when the earth shall be changed into another earth, as shall be the heavens and when shall appear before God, the One who holds absolute sway over all that exists.

This way of reading is compatible with for instance following verses

3969 The earth will shine with the light of its Lord ?

3974 They said, "Praise be to God who has fulfilled His promise to us, and He made us inherit the earth, enjoying Paradise as we please. What a beautiful recompense for the workers!"

The Earth is mentioned in these verses - the Earth after a difficult period of earthquakes and other events, will be transformed into a place of the light of God and a Paradise connected with the Heavens - 5721.

The people who are not allowed into Paradise will be in Hell (as long as the Creator decides - 6128, 11107) that will be brought near to Earth as verse 8923 indicates.

8923 Hell on that day is brought. On that day the human being will remember, but how will the remembrance now help him?

So it seems that it is not the Earth that is changed into a place of Hell, rather Hell is a place (or level) that already exists and is brought near to Earth.

For now I do not agree that the fact that the Koran states that there are 7 Heavens and the same number of earths should lead to the conclusion that this Earth will be left as Hell. Rather this could indicate that there are more dimensions and other places in the universe where creatures of God may live.

It seems to be compatible with the Koran to respect the Earth we live on in the best way - also as the place that will be transformed by the Light of God into Paradise - the place that will be inherited by the righteous.

Salaam,
Truthseeker

Disclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.

http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/019.%20Maryam%20Siddiqa/19.71.gif
And there is none amongst you people who will not reach her

Salaam

Agreed - this is in accordance with several translators on www.quranix.net.

If one reads verses 1966 until 1970, than the conclusion might be that only a special group of people is adressed here.
Verse 1966 mentions the doubters of the resurrection - actually the unbelieving people - the -kafiroon-.

In this way of reading there is coherence with verses 21101 and 21102, which are rather about the believers.

21101 As for those who deserved good from Us, they will be removed far away from it.

21102 They shall not hear the slightest sound from it, and they will be in what their person desires abiding therein.

Truthseeker

Disclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.

Peace, there was no full-moon illusion rather it was an ordinary looking white full moon.

2184 for days maddtin -- is relative which even a 100 or 1000 days is little compared to eternity.

324 ...they say, "Never will touch us the fire only days maddtin."

Peace

I share your observation that the full moon lasts about three days.
The word illusion was used because the moon is always round/full, independend if it can been seen on earth as round or full - not of importance.

The word -ma'doodat- seems to indicate a few, three or around three, as can be read in verse 2203.
Verse 324 does not suggest that the number is structurally higher.
May be there can be a linkage with following
Bible - Matthew 1240

• For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.-

The word -ma'doodat- is compatible with the duration of the full moon - three days.

Truthseeker

Disclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.

Yesterday July 14 my flight landed in Chicago at 8pm and at about 815pm in the car told the driver to look at the full moon in the east and also the sun which still has not set in the west...

http//www.usno.navy.mil/USNO/astronomical-applications/data-services/rs-one-day-us

The above is not unique (the full-moon and the sun are both visible in the sky) the evening before each full-moon although happens earlier sometimes like next month in August almost an hour before sun set...

To the human viewer without NASA info the full-moon on the evening before or day of are identical which moon-rise varies from a few minutes to over an hour depending on the cycle -- so which day do you start the fast?

Peace

One can consider the duration of the full moon as a period of three days - this year -shahr ramadan- 14, 15 and 16th of July.
When one fasts these three days, then that is compatible with verse 2185.

Verse 2185 states that the duration of a full moon is relevant for the length of the period of abstention.

• ... those of you who witness this full moon shall fast it ... -

The plural-form of the word days relating to the abstention mentioned in verse 2184 requires a number of more than two.
The duration of the full-moon illusion with at least 98% coverage is three days.

Verse 2203 gives the only quranic example of the Arabic word -ma'doodat- mentioned in verse 2184 regarding the number of days of abstention, and refers to the number three as the prescribed duration of being present at the hadj as a standard number.
Persons who missed one or more days of the fast can complete this count until three another time in the year, verse 2185.

Truthseeker

Disclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.

Peace

Verse 381 is a verse that is often wrongly interpreted by the acceptors of extra messengers.

Verse 381 - And when God accepted the covenant of the prophets, verily the scripture and the wisdom which I have given you, hereafter shall a messenger come to you, confirming the truth of that which is with you, you shall surely believe in him, and you shall assist him. He said, are you firmly resolved, and do you accept My covenant on this? They answered, we are firmly resolved. He said, be therefore witnesses; and I also bear witness with you. -

This verse states that God made a covenant with the prophets and that these prophets had to believe in and to support a messenger who would confirm their scriptures.
Some people say that the discoverer of code 19 is predicted by verse 381.
This is a wrong vision, since code 19 refers only to the Koran. Over it (allegorically this can refer to the Koran) is nineteen according to an interpretation of verse 7430, not over them.
Code 19 did not confirm the scriptures of the several prophets in any way as referred to in verse 381. There is no evidence that the discoverer of code 19 did confirm for instance the prophet Solomon.
So the claim of being the confirmer of the prophets can not be true.

Furthermore the Koran does not suggest anywhere that code 19 is a confirmation of its Godly origin.
According to a possible interpretation of verse 7431 code 19 is there to test, convince and strengthen different groups of people in the faith or absence of it, this is different from confirming the Koran.
The proof of the Divine origin according to the Koran is the absence of contradictions - verse 482.
Verses 981-3 relate also to the Koran as a clear evidence itself.

According to verses 384, 241, 291, 297 amongst others, the Koran is a confirmation of the previous prophetic scriptures.
But the prophet-messenger Mohammad himself is not the confirming messenger of verse 381.
This is because it would be unexplainable how the prophets could believe in and support the prophet-messenger Mohammad, while they were not on earth at the same time with him.
Since the departed souls including the prophets are behind a -barzakh-, according to verse 2399-100, nobody including the prophets could believe in and support a messenger while being behind this barrier.
The Koran has no contradictions, verse 482.

The following explanation of verse 381 has no contradictions at all.
The messenger of the covenant is the messenger Gabriel.

Verse 297 - Say, anyone who opposes Gabriel should know that he has brought down this (Koran) into your heart, in accordance with God's will, confirming previous scriptures, and providing guidance and good news for the believers. -

The Koran and the other prophetic scriptures were brought to mankind in a special way.
The first stage is that the prophets received the scripture in a primal form.
The Koran uses the word -inzal- for this downloading-process.

Verse 2213 - The people used to be one nation, then God sent the prophets as bearers of good news and as warners, and He sent down with them the book ... -

The next stage is the transformation of the message into materialized written verses, this is a gradual process that can last a longer period.
The Koran uses the word -tanzal- in verse 297, this verse refers to Gabriel as the messenger who is active in this transformation-process.

This system of the coming into being of the message in two phases, is fully compatible with the wording of verse 381.
The prophets have to promise that they will believe in and support the messenger that will come to them to confirm and transform the message that is already with them.
According to verses 26192-193,1917-19 and 297 together, that non-human messenger is the spirit Gabriel.
The prophets have an assisting role in this system of transforming the primal message, that is already with them into a definitive message, by accepting the guidance of Gabriel in this process.

Truthseeker

Disclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.

Red highlights above are from me.

verse 5725

1st You have interpolated Your own desires in the translation of 5725. I highlighted "down to" in your translation in red. It should be "with" instead. It makes a big difference in the MEANING of the verse. The verse says that the book is sent down with them, not sent down to them. Here, it can be the already existing books that the messenger should keep preaching, inviting the people to stop their divination, and to come back to the right path and start upholding the book again.

2nd Verse 735 clearly ADDRESSES US as the CHILDREN of Adam, and informs us that as long as CHILDREN of Adam/HUMANS, are living on this Earth, GOD, SWT, sends MESSENGERS from among ourselves, to us, if He wills.

735

O Children of Adam! If there come to you Messengers from amongst you, reciting to you, My Verses, then whosoever becomes pious and righteous, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

Messengers do not bring NEW books, they just PREACH/narrate the existing ones. PROPHETS are the one that GOD, SWT, gives them books and law. And, Prophet Muhammad, pbuh, was the LAST of the prophets. See 3340 below.

Muhammad (SAW) is not the father of any of your men, but he is the Messenger of All?h and the last (end) of the Prophets]. And All?h is Ever All?Aware of everything.

Salaam dear Khalil

The Koran seems to be very clear - both prophets and messengers brought a book with them to earth. The difference is that the -rasool- brought a book that contained a -sharia-. That made Mohammad a -rasool- and a -naby- and Solomon a -naby- not a -rasool-.

2213 The people used to be one nation, then God sent the prophets as bearers of good news and as warners, and He sent down with them the book ...
waanzala maAAahumu alkitaba

5725 We have sent Our messengers with clear proofs, and We sent down with them the book and the balance ...
waanzalna maAAahumu alkitaba

From these verses one can find koranic proof that both the messengers and the prophets were sent down together with the book.
So I do not share your reading that the messenger reads from an existing book.

Verse 735 does not suggest that the messenger recites an existing book - what would be the difference with the believer who recites the book for people who do not know the book?
This verse does not suggest that after Mohammad there will be new human-messengers. It states that the believers who take heed to the signs will be safe from fear or grieve.
For this until now we have the perfect Koran with us.

The koranic definition of a messenger as a bringer of the religion of truth and as a bringer of the law ? verses 619 and 5725, connects perfectly to verse 480, which states that the messenger has to be obeyed in the way that God has to be obeyed - following the sharia of the book sent down with the messenger.
This wording is not used regarding a prophet.

4153 We will show them Our signs in the horizons, and within themselves, until it becomes clear to them that this is the truth. Is it not enough that your Lord is witness over all things?
4154 Indeed, they are in doubt about meeting their Lord; but He is Encompassing over all things.

According to verse 4153 the people will receive other forms of guidance - a new human-messenger is not mentioned in the Koran.
The existence of angelic messengers makes clear why verse 3340 states that Mohammad is the last prophet, not the last messenger.

Truthseeker

Disclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.

You have to be a blind man not to see the miracle of the code 19 in the 29 initialed suras. I pray that God may increase your knowledge to see the other signs in the Quran.

The Koran indicates that code 19 is related to the initialed sura's.

The literal wording of verse 7430 - over her is nineteen.
Over the initialed chapters the initials are found. Not over the Koran as a whole.

The Koran does not call itself a numerically structured book.
In former discussions about code 19, the subject -kitab marqum- mentioned in verses 839 and 8320 has been dealt with extensively,
based on the assumption that the wording -kitab marqum- relates to the Koran.
This assumption seems to be incorrect, since chapter 83 mentions two different kind of -kitab marqum-.
One kind is for the wicked - then the book is in -sidjin-.
One kind is for the righteous - then the book is in -illiyoon-.
So -kitab marqum- relates to a personal record of the deeds, concerning the day of judgement.

Following three verses seem to indicate that the sign of code 19 is only related to the intialed chapters.

223 - If you have any doubt regarding what we revealed to our servant, then produce one sura like these, and call upon your own witnesses against GOD, if you are truthful.

1038 - If they say, "He fabricated it," say, "Then produce one sura like these, and invite whomever you wish, other than GOD, if you are truthful."

1113 - If they say, "He fabricated," tell them, "Then produce ten suras like these, fabricated, and invite whomever you can, other than GOD, if you are truthful."

These 3 verses, which are the ones in the Koran that have the subject of challenging -to produce a -sura- like this-, are in 3 different chapters that are initialed.
So this can support the approach that verse 7430 -over her is nineteen- is related only to the initialed chapters.
There is a probability of about 1 out of 64 that these 3 similar verses in 3 different chapters are each in an initialed chapter, since 29 of the 114 chapters are initialed.

Other 19-related findings are not a part of code 19 as far as I am concerned. The Koran does not suggest anywhere that for instance the number of the word -Allah- in the Koran should be divisible by 19. Really no reason to think that verses should be left out of the Koran.
Taking code 19 out of the context of the initials has led to rather ad random claims of -signs-.

An interesting article might be diamond vs. glass
http//www.quran.org/code/q-zone/lessons.html

Truthseeker

Disclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.

Salaam Kevin

In your own words tell me what qualifies a person to be a Messenger of God.

480 - Whoever obeys the messenger is obeying God. As for those who turn away, we did not send you as their guardian.

5725 - We sent our messengers supported by clear proofs and we sent down to them the scripture and the law, that the people may uphold justice.

619 - He has sent His messenger with the guidance and the true religion, and will make it dominate all religions, in spite of the idol worshipers.

From these verses one can conclude following

A human-messenger (-rasool-) from God has to be obeyed as God has to be obeyed - this means that a messenger brings an inspired message from God.
That inspired message is to be obeyed as God has to be obeyed, as a contrast to personal words or findings of a person.
The message of a -rasool- always contains a sharia guidance, the law, the true religion.

It is a fact that after Mohammad no person was on earth, that gave an inspired book containing the law, the true religion, truly in the name of God.
As said before possible discoveries about the Koran do not make a person a messenger. The possible discovery still belongs to the signs that the last true messenger brought - the Koran.

Personally I see code 19 only related to the initialed chapters.
That seems to be compatible with the literal wording of verse 7430 - over her is nineteen. This might indicate that code 19 has only relevance to the initialed chapters. Over the initialed chapter the initials are found. Not over the Koran.
This approach could make the discussion about removing koranic verses redundant.

In former discussions about code 19, the subject -kitab marqum- mentioned in verses 839 and 8320 has been dealt with extensively,
based on the assumption that the wording -kitab marqum- relates to the Koran.
This assumption seems to be incorrect, since chapter 83 mentions two different kind of -kitab marqum-.
One kind is for the wicked - then the book is in -sidjin-.
One kind is for the righteous - then the book is in -illiyoon-.
So -kitab marqum- relates to a personal record of the deeds, concerning the day of judgement.

223 - If you have any doubt regarding what we revealed to our servant, then produce one sura like these, and call upon your own witnesses against GOD, if you are truthful.

1038 - If they say, "He fabricated it," say, "Then produce one sura like these, and invite whomever you wish, other than GOD, if you are truthful."

1113 - If they say, "He fabricated," tell them, "Then produce ten suras like these, fabricated, and invite whomever you can, other than GOD, if you are truthful."

These 3 verses, which are the ones in the Koran that have the subject of challenging -to produce a -sura- like this-, are in 3 different chapters that are initialed.
So this can support the approach that verse 7430 -over her is nineteen- is related only to the initialed chapters.
There is a probability of about 1 out of 64 that these 3 similar verses in 3 different chapters are each in an initialed chapter, since 29 of the 114 chapters are initialed.

Truthseeker

Disclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.

So much misinformation and ignorant remarks are posted here about 19 and related issues....

About 15 years ago, I addressed many of the distortions and misinformation on this issue. I invite anyone who has sincere interest in the subject matter to read my letter to Signs Magazine, at

http//www.yuksel.org/e/religion/signs.htm

Peace,
Edip

Peace Edip

In this letter you endorse the idea that Rashad Khalifa was a messenger, a -rasool-.

selected quotes

• I believe that Rashad Khalifa was a messenger of God. If you ask why do I believe, I can list quite a few reasons.

• Rashad did not receive a book; he advocated Quran alone

3. The footnotes, subtitles and appendices of Rashad?s translation, "Quran the Final Testament," are not revela-tions besides the Quran, but his personal under-standing that is subject to human fil-tration, misunderstanding, interpretation and specula-tions. He advocated the Quran alone

unquote

The Koran seems to indicate otherwise

Verse 5725 - We sent our messengers supported by clear proofs and we sent down to them the scripture and the law, that the people may uphold justice.-

This verse alone is sufficient koranic proof that there were no new messengers after the prophet Mohammad. According to this verse ? human messengers bring a scripture and law ? with the permission of God.
No man or woman after the life-time of Mohammad has brought mankind a new scripture and a new -sharia-, that was sent down truly in the name of God.

Possible discoveries about the Koran do not make a person a messenger in the koranic tradition.

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9602264.0

Truthseeker

Disclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.