thanks for summarizing bro good logic, i think i understand what happened here
Peace All.
I need to summarise this thread for new readers and others who are wavering or still not sure. The thread needs a summary since it has gone on a bit in my opinion
Ju5 claimed 234 and 1649 contradict because of two things
1-Iblees is a Malaika but refused an order from GOD.234
2-Malaika are not arrogant, reverence GOD and obey GOD s orders.
and
Brother Noon gave him the following summary
1-Al Malaika in 1649 are a certain group, It does not say "Kullu" all of them.
2- He gave examples from Qoran to confirm this.
This is another example Qoran saysWa Ma MANAA Al- Naas AN Yuminu...Illa An Kalu Abaatha Allah Bacharan Rasoola" -What has stopped the peole from believing ...because theyb said why does GOD send a human like us as messenger.
In here even though it says "AL-NAAS" it does not mean all the people because surely few always believe.
Ju5 kept sticking to his view that all Malaika obey if Iblees disobeyed ,then there is a contradiction.
Ju5 has also said, as a summary, the following
1-He/She does not know if Malaika have got free will .
2-He/She does not care about other verses in Qoran or context.
3- He/she did not bring a single other verse that confirms clearly Iblees is a Malaika other than 234, yet there is other verses that confirm Iblees is from Jinn.
i agree with ju5 that iblees is malaika, Q 234 is enough to indicate that.
the problem lies in the phrase "wahum la yastakbirna" (and they are not arrogant) in the end of Q 1649. here bro ju5 assume that the word "wahum" (they) is referring to all malaika, thus make this verse contradict with Q 234.
bro Noon already explain that the word "min" means "some of", so the word "wahum" in Q 1649 can not be referred to all malaika, but only to some malaika. but i don't see where bro Noon explain which malaika that are referred in Q1649, if it is not all malaika ( ju5 asked about this question also)
from my understanding "wahum" in Q 1649 refers to sujud-ing malaika and all dabba, not all malaika and all dabba. it fits to bro Noon explanation about the word "min" and fit with the rest of the verse which basically says all dabba and some of malaika in heaven and earth sujud to Allah and they are not arrogant
please let me clarify my understanding.
iblees is malaika and a jinn. malaika is a role (role of controller) and jinn is a trait or characteristic (being hidden). so basically iblees is a hidden malaika (just like other malaika). it is similar to a statement ju5 is a teacher and he is smart. ju5 is a smart teacher
malaika has free will. iblees is a plain example. other case where freewill is exercise is by bad malaika is the case of harut and marut in Q 2102-103. why else they teach human about something that has no benefit ? other then supporting Iblees plan/promise to mankind? another example is when malaika questions ALLAH's decision prior to creating Adam, which we all are familiar with.
i thank bro ju5 for presenting this case, so that i can learn and expand my understanding about Quran.
if God allowed, i will look up bro ju5 original finding in
I have looked at the skeptic annotated qur'an and found most contradictions debatable/about bad translations/interpretations/blatantly false, but this, i can't refute. Anyone with explanations ?
Don't answer if don't know please, i don't want mental gymnasts and people who follow rumors and speak of what they do not know to pollute the topic. Just plain logic and knowledge in pursuit of truth, and no hate.
Heaven then earth
7927 Are you a more powerful creation than the heaven which He built?
7928 He raised its height, and perfected it.
7929 And He covered its night and brought out its morning.
7930 And the land after that He spread out.
7931 He brought forth from it its water and pasture.
7932 And the mountains He fixed firmly.
Earth then heaven
419 Say "You are rejecting the One who has created the earth in two days, and you set up equals with Him. That is the Lord of the worlds."
4110 And He placed in it stabilizers from above it, and He blessed it and established its provisions in proportion in four days, to satisfy those who ask.
4111 Then He settled to the heaven, while it was still smoke, and He said to it, and to the earth "Come willingly or unwillingly." They said "We come willingly."
4112 Thus, He then made them into seven heavens in two days, and He inspired to every heaven its affair. And We adorned the lowest heaven with lamps, and for protection. Such is the design of the Noble, the Knowledgeable.
Second,
people here say that Injil is indeed an arabic word and not greek words(good news), and that the Injil is not the gospel, and that Isa is not Jesus, but i found a post that make this position very hard to defend, which i am quoting here (by "youssef4342"
It would be quite farfetched to say that Isa is not Jesus and that the gospel is not the injil (what would be that injil that is mentioned several times? Why would the gospels would not be mentioned as they are the scriptures of christians ? Wikipedia
The Arabic word Injil (ل as found in Islamic texts, and now used also by Muslim non-Arabs and Arab non-Muslims, is derived from the Syriac Aramaic word awongaleeyoon (ܢ found in the Peshitta (Syriac translation of the Bible), which in turn derives from the Greek word euangelion (ν of the originally Greek language New Testament, where it means "good news" (from Greek " "; Old English "gdspel"
Please note also that Mary in the gospel is not called Miriam, but Mariam (the aramaic form of Miriam). She is also called Mariam in the Qur'an.
Now, if Jesus is Isa -it is quite striking than his mother Mariam has a father called Imran and a brother called Harun (Aaron), while the Miriam of the Torah is also sister to Aaron and daughter to Amram. This may be a confusion between Miriam from the Torah and Mariam from the gospels.
If anyone has the answer please share
and other findings in here
because the article was long, and because i was talking about plural of hands in the thieves and the lies/inventions around this, not about the baseless speculation(you can always speculate and invent things indefinitely), and anyway i answered to those because of you
the real question you should be wondering is why are you all dishonest when the subject is the qur'an? answer because you want to believe
i don't know if its the best website, but it sure does his job referencing the occurences of words in the qur'an
now, as i wage war against the qur'an are you going to cut my feet/hands opposed or crucify me like a good muslim? or will you disobey allah and twist his command?
since noone has correct answsers for my accusations, i will add even more
1 3953 Say, "O My servants who have transgressed against themselves , do not despair of the mercy of Allah. Indeed, Allah forgives all sins
448 Indeed, Allah does not forgive association with Him, but He forgives what is less than that for whom He wills
One could say he forgives shirk once you repent. But isn't that true of all sins? then why bother saying that allah does not forgive shirk/association?
2 5822 You will not find a people who believe in Allah and the Last Day having affection for those who oppose Allah and His Messenger, even if they were their fathers or their sons or their brothers or their kindred.
3115(about parents) But if they endeavor to make you associate with Me that of which you have no knowledge, do not obey them but accompany them in world with appropriate kindness
3 4116 Aad is destroyed in days of misfortune
5419 Aad is destroyed in a day of misfortune
697 Aad is destroyed in seven nights and eight days of misfortune
4 7120 Firaun wizards believe in musa
1080 None believed Musa save the offspring among his people
5 The qur'an is not clear, proof=the existence of all these discussion on this forum.
6 God gave the Gospel To Jesus which doesn't make sense. You can argue all day long about it, it is the most probable meaning injil=good news, the kitab word=book. Christians can find the name of Muhammad in it(qur'an says so). You say it doesn't make sense on the false premise that the qur'an is perfect and true.
7 Israel means "who wrestled with god" as jacob fought him, see the bible story. He called the place "the face of god" because he saw him. And God renamed him Israel. "Who wrestled with god". Unqur'anic to say the least, but still mentioned as Israel.
8 1649 And to God prostrate all those in the heavens and all those on the earth, from the creatures and the angels, and they are not arrogant.
1650 They fear their Lord from above them, and they do what they are commanded.
234 And when We said to the angels, "Prostrate before Adam"; so they prostrated, except for Iblees. He refused and was arrogant and became of the disbelievers.
Note if you say iblis is a jinn not an angel, learn grammar. Allah gives an orders to angels and all obey save Iblis. Nothing more, nothing less.
God may very well exist regardless of religions or not.
Maybe there was a perfect qur'an. Maybe there wasn't. One thing is sure, our qur'an is not.
Last hint of this post, if you think the qur'an can not contradict itself. then it will never contradict itself. Because of you. It is all in your mind.
