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This area deals with any general questions/issues regarding God / Islam / Quran not covered under other headings.

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  • A subtle fallacy

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    I observe a very subtle fallacy commited by intellectuals, religious priests and some members in this community. This fallacy is somewhat hard to explain. If you understand it or recognize it, please elaborate it further on this post. Please also let me know if I'm clear or not. (I use this forum as a testing ground for discussing ideas with non-muslims. Your feedback is thus very valuable). Let me try. Assume there are two belief systems. (They could be religions or societies or anything). Belief system A and belief system B. These belief systems have statements. The systems look like this Belief system A Statement a1. Statement a2. ....etc. Belief system B Statement b1. Statement b2. ....etc. Example of above generalization Belief system A Traffic laws in the US. Statement a1 Driver seat on the left side of the car. ..etc. Belief system B Traffic laws in the UK. Statement b1 Driver seat on the right side of the car. ..etc. The intellectual fallacy is as follows While attempting to verify the importance, strength or validity of a statement in a belief system, instead of looking for contradictions WITHIN the system itself, instead of looking at the behaviour of a statement WITHIN the system where it is contained, the fallacious thinker compares the statement with some OTHER comparative system. (phew). Comparing it with the generalization, While attempting to see how statement a1 works in belief system A, the fallacious thinker 'sees' the working of a1 in Belief system B, where it does not necessarily belong. Taking the example of traffic laws, the thinker commiting the above fallacy makes a statement as follows "A driver's seat on the left side should be against the law in the US. This is not how we do things in England". Who cares about England? Compare the driver seating with what is in the traffic laws in the US. Then you may say, "Well, can't I compare the results of statements in a belief system, with results of statements in other belief system?". Yes you CAN compare observational results. E.g, Traffic laws in US You cannot drive while intoxicated (drunk). Traffic laws in Guam (arbritrarily chosen) You can drive while intoxicated. From the observation of traffic deaths in the US and Guam, you will notice that more people die in Guam than in the US. You can thus conclude that it is not a good idea to drive while being drunk. While reaching this conclusion, you have seen the death rate in GUAM ITSELF (NOT US), and compared with death rate in US ITSELF (NOT GUAM), and thus avoided the fallacy. Summing up in Islamic context, While thinking about e.g, why sex outside marriage is prohibited in Islam, we may start to think about how presence of free sexual intercourse has no apparent effect on the US. We should instead, think about how free sexual intercourse will affect an ISLAMIC society (unfotunately in our thoughts so far) and other statements of this society. Im afraid I have commited this fallacy a number of times myself. Sorry about that.
  • The Front Page article and Polytheism

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    Peace, On a bulletin board I have been reading some people have read into the front page article and got the impression and think the author implies that 1.2Bn sunni and shia muslims are polytheists. Personally, my impression from the article is that all the invented practices are condemned, particularly "polytheism" being promoted in various practices. The claim was rather precise in the sense that the religion followed by the 1.2Bn does not resemble what is in the Qur'an. Could the author elaborate his opinions please whether he links these two charges and sees the 1.2Bn as polytheists. Thanks
  • Archangels

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    Just wondering, who or what are Gabriel and Michael according to the Quran. Why have they been given such importance, and what are their duties. I can pretty much figure out who/what Gabriel is, but what of Michael. The jews have given Michael the importance that muslims have given Gabriel. Who/what are archangels in the Quran. Also, what exactly are Gog and Magog. A last question on the two-horned one mentioned in the Quran. Was he alexander the great?
  • A Christian's suspicion...

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    I've been debating this Christian man called 'Buzsaw' at Evcforum, he's been bashing Islam in a thread. At one occasion I posted about free-minds.org, and here's his response. ANDYA I find this website largely informational if you want to know something about my beliefs http//free-minds.org BUZSAW I read this link and have a response to the following in it BUZSAW QUOTING FREE-MINDS What is Difference between Islam and Sunni or Shia faiths? If you would like to know some highlights of major differences between Islam (the unknown and unpracticed system), and the Sunni or Shia faiths (highly popular amongst 1.2Bn people), then see the following points BUZSAW Without posting the whole thing, I've posted the above introductive statements to the message of the link. BUZSAW The description you've given to "Islam" is particularly interesting; "{the unknown and unpracticed system)". BUZSAW So nobody in Islamland knows or practices Islam is what is implied. In fact the prophet Mohammed did not himself practice the long list of the "Islam" system as put forth in this link, nor did he teach it exclusively in his Quran. Neither the Sunnas or the Quran or the authors of either taught or practiced what this link states. For example Mohammed had many wives, while restricting others to four and advocated the cutting off of limbs for crimes, etc, etc. The link denounces both as not Islam. It appears that the sole purpose of this link is to recruit people into Islam, and to become Muslims by declaring Allah to be the true god and Mohammed his prophet. Once this is accomplished, they become officially Muslims and to depart or change the mind requires death as a heretic, as stated in the authorized Precept Hadiths and the Quran. BUZSAW This link appears to be designed for recruiting gullible converts into something depicted in the link that does not actually exist in practice anywhere in Islamland where the real doctrines of the Quran and the Sunnas are taught and practiced. After all Americans could comfortably accept the "Islam" depicted in the link and they do by the thousands, but once a substantial percentage of a nation become Muslims, then comes out the wolf under the sheepskin with what is really taught and practiced in real Islamland and what the prophet himself taught and practiced. Granted some of the virtuous aspects of the link are included in the Quran, but much of the not so pretty stuff taught and practiced in real Islamland by the vast majority Suni and Shia as also taught in both the Quran an the Sunnas comes out. This is the thread Fundamental Biblical Christianity and Fundamental Islam Fundamentally 180% Opposites Because he directed the comment to Free-minds so I guess you should know about this. How should I respond to him?
  • Sex and Quran

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    Ah, the dangerous topic. The famous word 'that must not be named'. The taboo, the evil word. Why does Islam prohibit sex outside marriage? Is it arbritrary or is there a reason behind it? -God's decisions are not arbritrary. -God has granted human beings an ability to reason and understand. -God has clearly marked the domains where human reasoning cannot reach. Those domains include the process of wahi delivery, the life after death and the concept of God. There may be more domains, but these are the ones I recall. So we should be able to understand the position of sex. What is sex anyway? IN NATURE, sex is a process with an outcome and an attribute. The outcome is a 'baby' or propagation of the species. The attribute of this act is 'pleasure' (which just cannot be defined but is very real relative to us). Why does sex have pleasure? The best theory to explain this is that sexual pleasure is an incentive for a species to procreate. If there was no pleasure in sex, why would the species engage in baby-making and tire itself anyway? And quite frankly, humankind today, the billions of human are not a result of two lovers making love under moonlight and living happily ever after. We exist, like other species, thanks to lust. I'm not talking specifically about parents, but in general, the history of humans. Now that we have defined the basis of our belief-system, lets first consider some prevailent alternative views on prohibition of sex-outside-marriage 1-Free sexual intercourse causes aids or other STDs. This is like saying, Large frequency of sex leads to AIDS. This position has not been proven. Similarly, having merely large frequency can occur even in millions of law-abiding married muslims. Hence sheer quantity cannot be the factor. Then you may say, well, it is because of sex outside marriage-partners. What if my marriage partner inherited AIDS at birth from a parent? What if the society religiously uses condoms and quarantines AIDS patients? STDs (minus AIDS) don't occur because of sex outside marriage. They occur because of FILTH. Being dirty, and then spreading it through sex. Of course, AIDS can also spread through non-sexual contact like sharing blood. So, this alone cannot be the reason for prohibiting sex outside marriage. Besides, AIDS was discovered in late 70s. What about the period before that? 2-Frequent sex leads to 'abnormalities' like homosexuality. The problem is the word 'abnormalities'. How do you define it to be abnormal? (Well, it doesn't lead to propagation of species. Counter We are over-populated anyways, so this is a good way to stop us from killing each other. And there goes this argument). Furthremore, Quran does NOT use 'abnormal' while dealing with homosexuality. Homosexuality is also visible in other species in nature. Since we cannot agree on the DEFINITION of abnormality (and to gays homosexuality is quite normal), there is no point of pursuing this further. Quran is a clear book. It does not depend on vague issues and definitions. Let us look at it from another perspective -All men and women are equal. Each earn what they strive for. -Which means, the only way to judge indivuals is through their conduct as defined in wahi, not by other means. What happens when you introduce free sexual intercourse in the society? 1-Sex is based on emotion called lust. Sometimes, if uncontrolled, it can lead to rape. We all agree that rape should not occur. Hence sexual urge must AT LEAST be controlled. 2-Sexual urge is determined by physical attraction. Thus, in our minds, we begin to judge people by their LOOKS and not their conducts. No matter what we say, heads still turn when a large-breasted woman walks by. This goes on even further. You develop the 'entertainment' culture, where people are judged by looks. Looks become a standard of priority. Children, from an early age focus on looking better. WOMEN END UP BEING ENSLAVED TO MEN BY MAKING UP, LOOKING GOOD AND TRYING TO BE ACCEPTED BY A MALE ONLY BY THEIR LOOKS. And what about the folks who see free sex around them and don't get a sexual partner because they are not attractive enough? These people go down the depths of self-pity and frustration. They lust for a good-looking woman (or man) but cannot satisfy the lust because the other partner does not find them attractive enough! Such people are the basis of serial killers. From the above analysis, it is clear that the reason sex is not permitted outside marriage, is because it violates the clause of EQUALITY. It creates a form of slavery. It also degenerates the unfortunate ones, who don't have the birth-right of good looks.
  • Shock and awe

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    In symtacs's posting on ' a plan to move forward', that is, implement a society based on the quranic structure 25 people responded, many of whom were repeats. In Sha's posting http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=683 re age of all members, outstanding 75 people responded. While Im not suggesting that you believe everything I say, something does not feel right in the numbers. Do we get more excited about how old we are, than about how to setup an islamic society? Im in shock and awe. Symtacs.
  • Salamooooooooona,

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    Salamoooooooooona, I,m new to the forum and glad to be here! Looking forward to a good interaction on the forum! Hope to learn a lot at the forum!
  • Islam and Islamic Philosophy

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    This rather long and sometimes confusing post is my first attempt to explain the universe and humans in light of islam and is also an attempt to introduce Islam. Explaining the Quran is a human attempt. It therefore, cannot be assumed to be free of fault. It is built on certain premises, such as an ability to observe and to conclude and deduce. I will soon publish this article on various fronts. In that respect, I need help of the members of the forum to help me edit my language AS WELL AS my thoughts. Also note that I will NOT assume Islam to be the truth in this analysis. Instead, I will present information in an objective fashion, show that Islam is natural outcome of my thought processes, processes that can be verified by observation and deduction. Positive criticism is highly desired. The audience of this article is a rational, open-minded non-muslim. This is part 1 of the two part prose. Thank you. /--Begin--/ Introduction Who are we? Why do we exist? Is there a purpose to our existence? Conversely, what is a purpose anyway? These among many other questions have kept us humans struggling and thinking since history was written. While we speculate over abstract issues, we realize that the start of our intellectual development begins from basic observations of the nature and its behaviour. Think about the most abstract notions in philosophy and mathematics, notions that do not exist in physical nature. Think about the concept of 'iota' or complex numbers, or the strings theory. If you ponder deep enough, you realize that even the most abstract of all concepts have their roots to physical observations (not to be confused with tangibility, which is only a subset of observations). Either abstract notions are explained using tangible, observable ideas (language), or are built on observable notions, or are designed to explain observations. Thus we can conclude that the basis of our knowledge is deeply rooted in observation and conclusion. The objective process to extract information from observations is called the 'Scientific Method'. Since it can be shown and has been shown that humans develop notions rooted in observation, we have no choice but to develop an answer to our fundamental philosophical questions USING the scientific method. Let us look at the universe in light of the scientific method. We observe that fire burns. Water flows to a lower level. Lions feed on deers etc. Night is followed by day. We label these consistent observations as 'laws', since they always appear to be consistent if the sufficient conditions are met. As our observation skills improved, we learned that those laws are only the surface of a complex system underneath. We also learned that although there are laws working at a higher scale, they are a result of more basic laws working at the atomic and subatomic levels. Because of these 'basic laws', the more broader, 'aggregate laws' come into existence. We developed heirarchical reductionism to explain the universe. It seems that nature starts complex systems from basic units or laws and 'elements'. Now look at the world around us. The world that humans have erected. What are the characteristics of this world? Closer inspection shows that it is merely an expression of what is INSIDE US. Our belief system dictates EVERYTHING that we do in our world. Our clothes, shops, businesses, families, friends, taste for movies and music and what not, all are a result of who we are inside. Hence the 'basic element' in a society is a single human being. A collective of single humans, dictates the outcome of a social structure. Are humans merely a collective of atoms, organized in such a way that intelligence and observation are inevitable? Perhaps they are. But a mere collection of atoms is not sufficient for explanation of the human experience, just as a quantum level analysis is impractical in explaining the workings of a car. We assume other units of explanation, just like gears in a car, in explaining the human experience. Units include, thoughts, feelings, emotions, which, although being a result of a collective of atoms, show a drastically different behaviour when compared to the building atoms themselves! From this observation we conclude that something happens when apparently simplers units interact together even in human context. Now, are thoughts and feelings sufficient to explain human behaviour? The psychologists recently realized that something far more complex arises when a collective of thoughts and feelings (this is not an exhaustive list) combine. They call this complex entity, 'the human self', or human personality (Nafs in Quranic terms). Hence in psychology, human-personalilty becomes the next unit of measurement for a social structure. Using the scientific method, what can we observe about this so-called-self? 1-The human self is dynamic like everything else in nature. It seems that it can strengthen or weaken over time. Consider Christopher Reeves, Mother Teressa for 'strong selfs' Consider suiciders, psychopaths and what-nots for 'weaker selfs'. (Weak and strong are by no means exhaustive. The self may have other attributes too). 2-The development of human self CAN occur even when the development of human body does NOT. Christopher Reeves has a very strong 'will' yet broken down body. Same with Stephan Hawkings. They both have manged to learn and to exist in peace without having a strong physical layout. (Both are physically handicapped). Although some people DO break down if their body breaks down, it is, in theory, possible to develop the self despite a weakened human body. 3-The development of human self CAN occur even when social units such money, house, popularity etc are absent. Although some people commit suicide when the stock market crashes, others CAN persist, even prosper if social tangibles are absent. 4-The human self can disintegrate. Although it can disintegrate when social tangibles like money do not exist, it can also disintegreate even when social tangibles ARE present and growing. Consider serial killers. Serial killers don't go on a rampage because they are jobless or broke. If the change in self does not depend on social tangibles, what exactly does it depend on? Closer inspection shows that the development or disintegration of 'self' depends on its 'belief system'. Another inspection shows that it also varies with the belief systems of neighbouring 'selfs', 'selfs' it interacts with. Although in theory it is possible for a child to be a normal human being even if he is abandoned by a parent, it is also the most widely expected reason for the development of a serial killer. This brings us to the question of 'belief system' and what belief system truly nurtures the human self. I will answer this question at the very last. Meanwhile, we come to another interesting question. Can self development be a purely solitary exercise? Consider this thought experiment. Assume that all of a sudden, all human beings close all social interactions, and sit in solitary confinements, wondering and 'praying' or meditating. Will their 'self' develop? Well, whether the self develops or not, the human species would be extinct. For human species to propagate, it needs to procreate. To procreate, it needs a male and a female. Assume that the male's only role is to inject a sperm. What happens next? Well, there is going to be a child. The child, till it hits its teens, inherently depends on its mother for nurture and protection from the elements. The mother then needs to be closely attached to the child. During the initial years of the child, she can't even leave the child behind, when she pursues food and shelter for physical survival. Hence, she needs to develop a RELATIONSHIP, either with the father or a 'baby sitter'. But as a result of this child, neither the mother, nor the father would be able to engage in 'self development'. Also, a sense of 'community' will also emerge as exchange of goods and services takes place, even to simply survive. Hence we conclude that humans are inherently a social animal, and without a social interaction, the human kind will go extinct. We also conclude that 'self-development' just cannot be a solitary exercise and if pursued, it will destroy human beings. (While this may perhaps be the only outcome of self-development, other explanations are also possible. I will address those shortly). For the time being we can conclude that self-developement either occurs in a strictly social environment, or a balanced mixture of social interaction and solitary exercises. Let us go back to nature for a moment. We frequently think of nature as a giant mechanical clock, where every component is working to drive the entire system. This analogy is not entirely accurate. The working components in a clock, although physically moving, are static as far as their 'state' is concerned. The 'state' of a gear in a clock always remains as a circular, fine-tooth object. Nature it appears, does not function that way. The 'gears' of nature have a life. They start from a state of 'potentialities', grow and fulfill their function in nature, propagate their genes, and cease to exist. Consider a 'seed'. A seed does not remotely look like the tree it will someday be. Hence it looks like an embodiment of 'potentialities'. A seed has the potential to grow into a tree to fulfill its purpose in nature (whatever the purpose maybe). It grows into a tree and withers away. Notice the attributes of the seed. The seed grows under a fixed set of laws. It does not grow if the conditions are not met. It can even rot away, without developing, if the surroundings are harsh. Same is true for all species in nature. One can even draw this analogy further, and show that even so-called non-livings things go through the above process. From the trees example, we conclude 1-Nature's components like plants and animals can be viewed as a process in the natural spectrum. Plants and animals in their initial stage, depict a common abstraction potentialities. 2-Certain conditions need to be met before the potentialities of natural elements can be exposed. 3-If the conditions are insufficient, the full potential is will not be realized. 4-If conditions are completely absent, the natural elements disintegrate. One wonders, can the human 'self' pass through the same stages and processes as observed in nature? Human self is dynamic. It can grow or wither. Its growth and disintegration occurs in a social environment. Hence we can conclude that the dynamics of human self are congruent to that of natural elements. Since human self can strengthen, in its undeveloped state, it represents a sets of potentialities just like elements in nature. Nature does not have a choice in choosing its 'belief system', while humans do. What belief systems and laws should humans adopt, to unfold the hidden potentialities of their 'selfs'?
  • HAPPY EID AL ADHA

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    ** q_l_l l ** Salaamunn 3alaykumm, HAPPY EID AL A DHA * * * Salaamunn He-Ya Peace It Is
  • Miracles?

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    Salaam all, In reading some of the threads in the Salat section, I came across an opinion by br. Anwar that miracles do not happen/exist. My understanding of his view of God seems to be very much that of Spinoza's. How is this reconciled with the miracles of prophet Jesus as told in the Quran? I would appreciate both arguments for and against. The reason I am interested in this is because I had what I believe was a miracle occur in my life. Until that point in time, I felt that the "religious" experiences people talked about were psychosomatic. After having had my own "religious" experience, which was quite powerful, it not only changed my life, but my view of the role that God has in our lives. Peace
  • Husband's Rights Concerning His Wife -- I'm Going to Be Sick

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    Husband's Rights Concerning His Wife From Riyad-us-Saliheen Allah, the Exalted, says "Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has made one of them to excel the other, and because they spend (to support them) from their means. Therefore, the righteous women are devoutly obedient (to Allah and to their husbands), and guard in the husband's absence what Allah orders them to guard (e.g., their chastity and their husband's property).'' (An-Nisa 434) Abu Hurairah (RA) reported Messenger of Allah (SAW) said, "When a man calls his wife to his bed, and she does not respond and he (the husband) spends the night angry with her, the angels curse her until morning". . In another narration The Messenger of Allah (SAW) said, "When a woman spends the night away from the bed of her husband, the angels curse her until morning". . In another narration Messenger of Allah (SAW) said, "By Him in Whose Hand is my life, when a man calls his wife to his bed, and she does not respond, the One Who is above the heaven becomes displeased with her until he (her husband) becomes pleased with her". . Commentary This Hadith makes it abundantly clear that obedience of the husband is compulsory on the wife. If, in the absence of any lawful reason, she refuses to obey the orders of her husband, she will be liable to the Wrath and Curse of Allah until she returns to obedience. This Hadith has a stern warning for those women who do not care for the displeasure of their husbands because of their bad temperament, stubbornness and habit of dominating their husbands. Abu Hurairah (RA) reported Messenger of Allah (SAW) said, "It is not lawful for a woman to observe (voluntary) fasting without the permission of her husband when he is at home; and she should not allow anyone to enter his house without his permission.". . Commentary It lays down a principle for a wife that performing Nawafil (voluntary acts of worship) at the cost of the husband rights is not permissible. Ibn `Umar (RA) reported The Prophet (SAW) said, "All of you are guardians and are responsible for your subjects. The ruler is a guardian of his subjects, the man is a guardian of his family, the woman is a guardian and is responsible for her husband's house and his offspring; and so all of you are guardians and are responsible for your subjects.'' . Commentary This Hadith ordains every individual in society, whether he is a ruler or ruled citizen or even a woman who leads her life within the four walls of her house, to perform his duties within his own sphere. Not only that, every person has been made responsible to reform the state of affairs in his control and establish equity and justice because he will be held accountable for any negligence on his part in this respect. Abu Ali Talq bin Ali (RA) reported Messenger of Allah (SAW) said, "When a man calls his wife to satisfy his desire, she must go to him even if she is occupied with the oven". . Abu Hurairah (RA) reported The Prophet (SAW) said, "If I were to order anyone to prostrate himself before another, I would have ordered a woman to prostrate herself before her husband". Commentary This Hadith also shows the unique importance of the wife's obedience to her husband within her capacity and as long as he does not order her to disobey Allah. Umm Salamah (RA) reported Messenger of Allah (SAW) said, "Any woman dies while her husband is pleased with her, she will enter Jannah". . Commentary The distinction mentioned in this Hadith is for those women who abide by the duties and obligations entrusted to them by Islam and also endeavour to keep their husbands happy. Allah (SWT) will pardon their ordinary acts of omission and commission and admit them to Jannah. Mu`adh bin Jabal (RA) reported The Prophet (SAW) said, "Whenever a woman harms her husband in this world (that is without any due right), his wife among the (Houris in Jannah) says `You must not harm him. May Allah destroy you! He is only a passing guest with you and is about to leave you to come to us". . Commentary The Islamic Shari`ah commands men to treat their wives with kindness. In the same spirit it commands wives to be obedient to their husbands. She can hurt the feelings of her husband by using indecent language, immodest conduct, immoral actions and making unfair demands which are beyond his means. It is very common among women to tease and trouble their husbands by these three practices, except for pious women. Usamah bin Zaid (RA) reported The Prophet (SAW) said, "I am not leaving behind me a more harmful trial for men than women". . Commentary According to this Hadith, women and their beauty are the greatest and most disastrous mischief for men. This fact can be easily verified by observation. Men are generally constrained to take to corruption and unfair means of income to fulfill undue demands of their wives. If women learn to lead a simple life, men will not need much to make money through unlawful means. Similarly, it is women who compel men to hold all kinds of meaningless customs and ceremonies on marriage parties and thereby violate Islamic injunctions, and incur more expenses. If women go by the Islamic injunctions, the marriages would become a greater source of happiness and pleasure. What a crock! How much more hateful towards women can these sick people be? How can women read this and not get furious?
  • An External Critique of The Qur'an

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    Peace "Is the Qur'an the Word of God?" - Part 3 D An External Critique of the Qur'an D4 Mecca Muslims maintain that "Mecca is the centre of Islam, and the centre of history." According to the Qur'an, "The first sanctuary appointed for mankind was that at Bakkah (or Mecca), a blessed place, a guidance for the peoples." (Sura 396) In Sura 692 and 425 we find that Mecca is the "mother of all settlements." According to Muslim tradition, Adam placed the black stone in the original Ka'ba there, while according to the Qur'an (Sura 2125-127) it was Abraham and Ishmael who rebuilt the Ka'ba many years later. Thus, by implication, Mecca is considered by Muslims to be the first and most important city in the world! Apart from the obvious difficulty in finding any documentary or archaeological evidence that Abraham ever went to or lived in Mecca, the overriding problem rests in finding any reference to the city before the creation of Islam. From research carried out by both Crone and Cook, the supposed first and only pre-Islamic reference to Mecca is an inference to a city called "Makoraba" by the Greco-Egyptian geographer Ptolemy in the mid-2nd century A.D., though we are not even sure whether this allusion by Ptolemy referred to Mecca, as he only mentioned the name in passing. Furthermore, according to Dr. Crone, the three Arabic root letters for Mecca (MKK) do not at all correspond with the three Arabic root letters for Makoraba (KRB) (as the letters 'ma-', which preceed 'koraba', signify 'the place of'). Thus, there is absolutely no other report of Mecca or its Ka'ba there in any authenticated ancient document; that is until the late seventh century (Cook-74; Crone-Cook 197722). In fact, they maintain, "the earliest references are those found in one Syriac version of the Apocalypse of pseudo-Methodius" (Crone-Cook 197722,171). However, although the Apocalypse itself dates from the late seventh century, the references to Mecca are only found in later copies, and are not present in the European or later Syrian traditions, and make no appearance in the Vatican Codex,' which is considered by etymologists to be the earliest text (refer to the discussion on this problem between Nau and Kmosko in note "7," p. 171, in Crone & Cook's Hagarism1977). The next reference to Mecca, according to Crone and Cook, occurs in the Continuatio Byzantia Arabica, which is a source dating from early in the reign of the caliph Hisham, who ruled between 724-743 A.D. (Crone-Cook 197722,171). Therefore, the earliest corroborative evidence we have for the existence of Mecca is fully 100 years after the date when Islamic tradition and the Qur'an place it. Why? Certainly, if it was so important a city, someone, somewhere would have mentioned it; yet we find nothing outside of the small inference by Ptolemy 500 years earlier, and these initial statements in the latter seventh to early eighth century. And that is not all, for Muslims maintain that Mecca was not only an ancient and great city, but it was also the center of the trading routes for Arabia in the seventh century and before (Cook 198374; Crone 19873-6). Yet, according to extensive research by Bulliet on the history of trade in the ancient Middle-East, these claims by Muslims are quite wrong, as Mecca simply was not on the major trading routes. The reason for this, he contends, is that, "Mecca is tucked away at the edge of the peninsula. Only by the most tortured map reading can it be described as a natural crossroads between a north-south route and an east-west one." (Bulliet 1975105) This is corroborated by further research carried out by Groom and Muller, who contend that Mecca simply could not have been on the trading route, as it would have entailed a detour from the natural route. In fact, they maintain the trade route must have bypassed Mecca by some one-hundred miles (Groom 1981193; Muller 1978723). Patricia Crone, in her work on Meccan Trade and the Rise of Islam adds a practical reason which is too often overlooked by earlier historians. She points out that, "Mecca was a barren place, and barren places do not make natural halts, and least of all when they are found at a short distance from famously green environments. Why should caravans have made a steep descent to the barren valley of Mecca when they could have stopped at Ta'if. Mecca did, of course, have both a well and a sanctuary, but so did Ta'if, which had food supplies, too" (Crone 19876-7; Crone-Cook 197722). Furthermore, Patricia Crone asks, "what commodity was available in Arabia that could be transported such a distance, through such an inhospitable environment, and still be sold at a profit large enough to support the growth of a city in a peripheral site bereft of natural resources?" (Crone 19877) It was not incense, spices or other exotic goods, as many notoriously unreliable early writers had intimated (see Crone's discussion on the problem of historical accuracy, particularly between Lammens, Watts and Kister, in Meccan Trade, 19873). In her study on the Meccan Trade, Dr. Crone points out that of the fifteen spices attributed to Mecca six went out of fashion before the sixth century; two were imported by sea; two were exclusively from East Africa; two were inferior and thus never traded; one was of a problematic identity; and two cannot be identified at all (Crone 198751-83). Consequently, not one of the fifteen spices can be attributed to Mecca. So what was the trade for which Mecca was famous? Some Muslims maintain it was banking or perhaps camel herding; yet in such a barren environment? According to the latest and much more reliable research by Kister and Sprenger, the Arabs engaged in a trade of a considerably humbler kind, that of leather and clothing; hardly items which could have founded a commercial empire of international dimensions (Kister 1965116; Sprenger 186994). The real problem with Mecca, however, is that there simply was no international trade taking place in Arabia, let alone in Mecca, in the century immediately prior to Muhammad's birth. It seems that much of our data in this area has been spurious from the outset, due to sloppy research of the original sources, carried out by Lammens, "an unreliable scholar," and repeated by the great orientalists such as Watts, Shaban, Rodinson, Hitti, Lewis and Shahid (Crone 19873,6). Lammens, using first century sources (such as Periplus - 50 A.D. - and Pliny - 79 A.D.) should have used the later sixth century Greek, Byzantine and Egyptian historians who were closer to the events (such as Cosmas, Procopius and Theodoretus - Crone 19873,19-22,44). Because they were not only merchants, travellers and geographers, but historians, they knew the area and the period and therefore would have given a more accurate picture. Had he referred to these later historians he would have found that the Greek trade between India and the Mediterranean was entirely maritime after the first century A.D. (Crone 198729). One need only look at a map to understand why. It made no sense to ship goods across such distances by land when a waterway was available close by. Patricia Crone points out that in Diocletian's Rome it was cheaper to ship wheat 1,250 miles by sea than to transport it fifty miles by land (Crone 19877). The distance from Najran, Yemen in the south, to Gaza in the north was roughly 1,250 miles. Why would the traders ship their goods from India by sea, and unload it Aden, where it would be put on the backs of much slower and more expensive camels to trudge across the inhospitable Arabian desert to Gaza, when they could simply have left in on the ships and followed the Red Sea route up the west coast of Arabia? There were other problems as well. Had Lammens researched his sources correctly, he would have also found that the Greco-Roman trade collapsed by the third century A.D., so that by Muhammad's time there simply was no overland route, and no Roman market to which the trade was destined (Crone 198729). He would have similarly found that what trade remained, was controlled by the Ethiopians and not the Arabs, and that Adulis on the Ethiopian coast of the Red Sea and not Mecca was the trading centre of that region (Crone 198711, 41-42). Of even more significance, had Lammens taken the time to study the early Greek sources, he would have discovered that the Greeks to whom the trade went had never even heard of a place called Mecca (Crone 198711,41-42). If, according to the Muslim traditions and recent orientalists, Mecca was so important, certainly those to whom the trade was going would have noted its existence. Yet, we find nothing. Crone in her work points out that the Greek trading documents refer to the towns of Ta'if (which is close to present-day Mecca), and to Yathrib (later Medina), as well as Kaybar in the north, but no mention is made of Mecca (Crone 198711). Even the Persian Sassanids, who had incursions into Arabia between 309 and 570 A.D. mentioned the towns of Yathrib (Medina) and Tihama, but not Mecca (Crone 198746-50). That indeed is troubling. Had the later orientalists bothered to check out Lammens' sources, they too would have realized that since the overland route was not used after the first century A.D., it certainly was not in use in the fifth or sixth centuries (Crone 198742), and much of what has been written concerning Mecca would have been corrected long before now. Finally, the problem of locating Mecca in the early secular sources is not unique, for there is even some confusion within Islamic tradition as to where exactly Mecca was initially situated (see the discussion on the evolution of the Meccan site in Crone & Cook's Hagarism 197723,173). According to research carried out by J.van Ess, in both the first and second civil wars, there are accounts of people proceeding from Medina to Iraq via Mecca (van Ess 197116; see also Muhammad b. Ahmad al-Dhahabi 1369343). Yet Mecca is south-west of Medina, and Iraq is north-east. Thus the sanctuary for Islam, according to these traditions was at one time north of Medina, which is the opposite direction from where Mecca is today! We are left in a quandary. If Mecca was not the great commercial center the Muslim traditions would have us believe, if it was not known by the people who lived and wrote from that period, and, if it could not even qualify as a city during the time of Muhammad, it certainly could not have been the center of the Muslim world at that time. What city, therefore, was? The answer is not that difficult to guess, as has been intimated already. It seems that Jerusalem and not Mecca was the center and sanctuary of the Haggarenes, or Maghrebites (early names given to the Arabs) until around 700 A.D.. The earlier discussions concerning the Hijra, the Qibla, and the Jews pointed out that it was towards the north, possibly Palestine that the Hijra was directed, that it was somewhere in the north-west of Arabia that the Hagarenes turned to pray, and that it was alongside the Jews that the conquests were carried out (Crone-Cook 19779,160-161,23-24,6-9). Add to that another fact which may help us bring this all together D5 Dome of the Rock In the center of Jerusalem sits an imposing structure (even today) called the Dome of the Rock, built by Abd al-Malik in 691 A.D.. One will note, however, that the Dome of the Rock is not a mosque, as it has no Qibla (no direction for prayer). It is built as an octagon with eight pillars (Nevo 1994113), suggesting it was used for circumambulation (to walk around). Thus, it seems to have been built as a sanctuary (Glasse 1991102). Today it is considered to be the third most holy site in Islam, after Mecca and Medina. Muslims contend that it was built to commemorate the night when Muhammad went up to heaven to speak with Moses and Allah concerning the number of prayers required of the believers (known as the Mi'raj in Arabic) (Glasse 1991102). Yet, according to the research carried out on the inscriptions by Van Berchem and Nevo, the earliest dated inscriptions in the edifice of the building say nothing of the Mi'raj, but relate merely polemical quotations which are Qur'anic, though they are aimed primarily at Christians. Many Muslims are quick to point out that both suras 171 and 2143-145, which speak of the 'inviolable place' and the 'change of the Qibla', can be found on the inscriptions on the drum of the dome and the doorway facing south. They would do well to read the history of those inscriptions. What they will find is that neither of these inscriptions are original, nor are they old. The entire dome was rebuilt by al Zaher Li-L'zaz in 1022 A.D. due to an earthquake in 1016 A.D. (Duncan 197246). The drum was rebuilt in 1318 A.D. (Creswell 196930), but the inscriptions (both the lower sura 36 and the upper sura 17) were not added until 1876 A.D. by Abdul Hamid II (Duncan 197266). The present doors (where sura 2144 is found) were not erected until 1545 A.D. (Creswell 196926). The southern portical where sura 2143-145 is written was not built until 1817 A.D. by the Sultan Mahmud (Duncan 197264). Thus, once we read the history of the dome, we find that neither of these two 'incriminating' suras belong to the original dome when it was constructed by 'abd al-Malik in 691 A.D. The earliest inscriptions which we can attest to speak of the messianic status of Jesus, the acceptance of the prophets, Muhammad's receipt of revelation, and the use of the terms "islam" and "muslim" (Van Berchem 1927nos.215,217; Nevo 1994113). It must be noted, however, that even their early dates are in doubt due to a different design attributed to the supporting pillars from an account by the Persian Nasir i Khusran in 1047 A.D. (see Duncan 1972 44-46). If the sanctuary was built to commemorate such an important event in the history of the prophet's life (the Mi'raj), why do none of the earliest inscriptions refer to it? Nowhere in the earliest inscriptions is there any mention of his night journey to heaven, on the back of the winged horse Buraq, nor is there any mention of the dialogue Muhammad had between first Moses and Allah, nor the required five prayers, which was the purpose of the event! How can this be explained? A possible explanation could be that the story of the Mi'raj simply did not exist at this time, but was redacted later on during the Abbasid period (after 750 A.D.). This is not hard to understand when one realizes that the idea of five prayers also seems to have been redacted later as well. The only references to prayer in the Qur'an occur in suras 11114; 1778-79; 20130; and 3017-18 (though there is doubt whether they all speak of prayer , or whether they speak of praise ). What we find in these references are three required prayers. They say nothing of five prayers (albeit many Muslim commentators have tried desperately to add, by means of a tortured reading, the two missing prayers either in the morning or in the evening). This story of the Mi'raj supposedly took place while Muhammad was living in Medina (most likely around 624 A.D.). Yet we are obliged to refer to the Hadith, compiled 200-250 years later to find not only that five daily prayers are stipulated, but what they are called. If the Qur'an is the word of God, why does it not know how many prayers a Muslim is required to pray? And furthermore, why, if the Dome of the Rock were built to commemorate that momentous event, does it say nothing about it until over 1000 years later? It seems obvious that this building was originally built for other purposes than that of commemorating the Mi'raj. The fact that such an imposing structure was built so early suggests that this was the sanctuary and the center of Islam up until at least the late seventh century, and not Mecca (Van Bercham 1927217)! From what we read earlier of Muhammad's intention to fulfill his and the Hagarene's birthright, by taking back the land of Abraham, or Palestine, it makes sense that Abd al-Malik would build this structure as the center-piece of that fulfillment. Is it no wonder then, that when Abd al-Malik built the dome in which he proclaimed the prophetic mission of Muhammad, he placed it over the temple rock itself (Van Berchem 1927217). According to Islamic tradition, the caliph Suleyman, who reigned as late as 715-717 A.D., went to Mecca to ask about the Hajj. He was not satisfied with the response he received there, and so chose to follow 'abd al-Malik (i.e. traveling to the Dome of the Rock) (note not to be confused with the Imam, Malik b. Anas who, because he was born in 712 A.D., would only have been three years old at the time). This fact alone, according to Dr. Hawting at SOAS, points out that there was still some confusion as to where the sanctuary was to be located as late as the early eighth century. It seems that Mecca was only now taking on the role as the religious centre of Islam. One can therefore understand why, according to tradition, Walid I, who reigned as Caliph between 705 and 715 A.D., wrote to all the regions ordering the demolition and enlargement of the mosques (refer to 'Kitab al-'uyun wa'l-hada'iq,' edited by M. de Goeje and P. de Jong 18694). Could it be that at this time the Qiblas were then aligned towards Mecca? If so, it points to yet another contradiction with the Qur'an which established Mecca as the sanctuary, and thus direction for prayer, during the lifetime of Muhammad from 80 to 90 years earlier (see sura 2144-150). And that is not all, for we have other archaeological and manuscript evidence which point up differences with that which we read in the Qur'an D6 Muhammad The writings by the Armenian chronicler from around 660 A.D. (referred to earlier) give us the earliest narrative account of Muhammad's career to survive in any language, attesting that Muhammad was a merchant who spoke much about Abraham, thus providing us with early historical evidence for the existence of Muhammad (Cook 198373). Yet this chronicler says nothing of Muhammad's universal prophethood, intimating he was only a local prophet. Even the earliest Islamic documents, according to Dr. John Wansbrough, say nothing of his universal prophethood. The Maghazi, which Wansbrough points out are stories of the prophet's battles and campaigns, are the earliest Islamic documents which we possess (Wansbrough 1978119). They should give us the best snapshot of that time, yet they tell us little concerning Muhammad's life or teachings. In fact, nowhere in these documents is there a veneration of Muhammad as a prophet! If, according to the Qur'an, Muhammad is known primarily as the "seal of all prophets" (Sura 3340), then why would these documents be silent on this very important point? Nevo's Rock inscriptions In order to know who Muhammad was, and what he did, we must, therefore, go back to the time when he lived, and look at the evidence which existed then, and still exists, to see what it can tell us about this very important figure. Wansbrough, who has done so much research on the early traditions and the Qur'an believes that, because the Islamic sources are all very late, from 150 years for the Sira-Maghazi documents, as well as the earliest Qur'an, it behooves us not to consider them authoritative (Wansbrough 1977160-163; Rippin 1985154-155). It is when we look at the non-Muslim sources that we find some rather interesting observances as to who this man Muhammad was. The best non-Muslim sources on seventh century Arabia which we have are those provided by the Arabic rock inscriptions scattered all over the Syro-Jordanian deserts and the Peninsula, and especially the Negev desert (Nevo 1994109). The man who has done the greatest research on these rock inscriptions is Yehuda Nevo, of the Hebrew University of Jerusalem. It is to his research, which is titled Towards a Prehistory of Islam, published in 1994, that I will refer. Nevo has found in the Arab religious texts, dating from the first century and a half of Arab rule, a monotheistic creed. However, he contends that this creed "is demonstrably not Islam, but from which Islam could have developed." (Nevo 1994109) Nevo also found that "in all the Arab religious institutions during the Sufyani period there is a complete absence of any reference to Muhammad." (Nevo 1994109) In fact neither the name Muhammad itself nor any Muhammadan formulae (that he is the prophet of God) appears in any inscription dated before the year 691 A.D.. This is true whether the main purpose of the inscription is religious, such as in supplications, or whether it was used as a commemorative inscription, though including a religious emphasis, such as the inscription at the dam near the town of Ta'if, built by the Caliph Mu'awiya in the 660s A.D. (Nevo 1994109). The fact that Muhammad's name is absent on all of the early inscriptions, especially the religious ones is significant. Many of the later traditions (i.e. the Sira and the Hadith, which are the earliest Muslim literature that we possess) are made up almost entirely of narratives on the prophet's life. He is the example which all Muslims are to follow. Why then do we not find this same emphasis in these much earlier Arabic inscriptions which are closer to the time that he lived? Even more troubling, why is there no mention of him at all? His name is only found on the Arab inscriptions after 690 A.D. (Nevo 1994109-110). And what's more, the first dated occurrence of the phrase Muhammad rasul Allah (Muhammad is the prophet of God) is found on an Arab-Sassanian coin of Xalid b. Abdallah from the year 690 A.D., which was struck in Damascus (Nevo 1994110). Of greater significance, the first occurrence of what Nevo calls the "Triple Confession of Faith," which includes the Tawhid (that God is one), the phrase, Muhammad rasul Allah (that Muhammad is his prophet), and the human nature of Jesus (rasul Allah wa- abduhu), is found in Abd al-Malik's inscription in the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem, dated 691 A.D. (Nevo 1994110)! Before this inscription the Muslim confession of faith cannot be attested at all. It must be noted, however, that the date for this inscription could itself be much later, possibly added by al Zaher Li-L'zaz when he rebuilt the inner and outer ambulatories above which the inscription is situated, in 1022 A.D. (Duncan 197246). As a rule, after 691 A.D. and all through the Marwanid dynasty (till 750 A.D.), Muhammad's name usually occurs whenever religious formulae are used, such as on coins, milestones, and papyrus "protocols" (Nevo 1994110). One could probably argue that perhaps these late dates are due to the fact that any religious notions took time to penetrate the Arabic inscriptions. Yet, according to Nevo, the first Arabic papyrus, an Egyptian entaqion, which was a receipt for taxes paid, dated 642 A.D. and written in both Greek and Arabic is headed by the "Basmala," yet it is neither Christian nor Muslim in character (Nevo 1994110). The religious content within the rock inscriptions does not become pronounced until after 661 A.D. However, though they bear religious texts, they never mention the prophet or the Muhammadan formulae (Nevo 1994110). "This means," according to Nevo, "that the official Arab religious confession did not include Muhammad or Muhammadan formulae in its repertoire of set phrases at this time," a full 60 years and more after the death of Muhammad (Nevo 1994110). What they did contain was a monotheistic form of belief, belonging to a certain body of sectarian literature with developed Judaeo-Christian conceptions in a particular literary style, but one which contained no features specific to any known monotheistic religion (Nevo 1994110,112). Of even greater significance, these inscriptions show that when the Muhammadan formulae is introduced, during the Marwanid period (post 684 A.D.), it is carried out "almost overnight" (Nevo 1994110). Suddenly it became the state's only form of official religious declaration, and was used exclusively in formal documents and inscriptions, such as the papyrus "protocols" (Nevo 1994110). Yet even after the Muhammadan texts became official, they were not accepted by the public quite so promptly. For years after their appearance in state declarations, people continued to include non-Muhammadan legends in personal inscriptions, as well as routine chancery writings (Nevo 1994114). Thus, for instance, Nevo has found a certain scribe who does not use the Muhammadan formulae in his Arabic and Greek correspondence, though he does on papyrus "protocols" bearing his name and title (Nevo 1994114). In fact, according to Nevo, Muhammadan formulae only began to be used in the popular rock inscriptions of the central Negev around 30 years (or one generation) after its introduction by Abd al-Malik, sometime during the reign of Caliph Hisham (between 724-743). And even these, according to Nevo, though they are Muhammadan, are not Muslim. The Muslim texts, he believes, only begin to appear at the beginning of the ninth century (around 822 A.D.), coinciding with the first written Qur'ans, as well as the first written traditional Muslim accounts (Nevo 1994115). Consequently, it seems from these inscriptions that it was during the Marwanid dynasty (after 684 A.D.), and not during the life of Muhammad that he was elevated to the position of a universal prophet, and that even then, the Muhammadan formula which was introduced was still not equivalent with that which we have today. For further discussion on the six classifications or periods of the rock inscriptions, and their content, I would recommend Nevo's article (pages 111-112). D7 'Muslim' and 'Islam' We now come to the words "Muslim" and "Islam." Muhammad's adherence to the Abrahamic line could explain why no mention is made of the name Muslim until the latter years of the seventh century (Cook 198374; Crone-Cook 19778 ). In fact the earliest datable occurrence of this term is not found until the inscriptions on the walls of the Dome of the Rock which we know was constructed in 691 A.D., 60 years after the death of Muhammad (van Berchem 1927217; Crone-Cook 19778 ). Prior to that time the Arabs were referred to as Magaritai, the term we find in Greek papyri of 642 A.D. (called PERF 564 and PERF 558 Grohmann 195728f,157). In the Syriac letters of the Bishop Isho'yahb III from as early as the 640s A.D. they were called Mahgre or Mahgraye (Duval 190497 ). The appearance of these terms is not unique, however, but are found as far afield as Egypt and Iraq, which is significant (Crone-Cook 1977159). The corresponding Arabic term is Muhajirun, which is both genealogical as they are the descendants of Abraham and Hagar, and historical, as they are those who take part in a hijra, or exodus. The earlier discussion on the significance of the hijra pointed out that this was (according to external sources) possibly towards Palestine and not simply to Medina. Athanasius in 684 A.D., writing in Syriac used the name Maghrayes to refer to the Arabs. Jacob of Edessa in 705 A.D. mentions them as Hagarenes. The Doctrina Iacobi refers to them as Saracens (Bonwetsch 191088; Cook 198375). Thus, contrary to what the Qur'an says in Sura 3335, it seems that the term Muslim was not used until the late seventh century (Crone-Cook 19778 ). So where did the name originate? According to Crone and Cook the term Islam (and the corresponding word Muslim) in the sense of "submission to God" was borrowed from the Samaritans (Crone-Cook 197719-20). Crone and Cook maintain that "the verb aslama has cognates in Hebrew, Aramaic and Syriac, but whereas neither Jewish nor Christian literature provides satisfactory precedent for the Islamic usage, we find exact parallels to Islam in , which is the most important Samaritan text of the pre-Islamic period." (Crone-Cook 197719,169; Macdonald 196385) They go on to say that, "the plausible sense of the root to invoke here is that of peace' and the sense of to make peace.' The reinterpretation of this conception in terms of the ultimately dominant sense of submission' can readily be seen as intended to differentiate the Hagarene covenant from that of Judaism." (Crone-Cook 197720) Though the Qur'an uses this term (Sura 3335), it seems, from the seventh century documents which we do possess, that it was not known during the life of Muhammad, which consequently adds more credence to the possibility of an evolution in the Qur'anic text. D8 Qur'an ... All these findings give us good reason to question the true authority of the Qur'an as the word of God. Archaeology, as well as documentary and manuscript evidence indicates that much of what the Qur'an maintains does not coincide with the data at our disposal. From the material amassed from external sources in the seventh and eighth centuries, we can conclude that the Hijra was more-than-likely not towards Medina, but towards Palestine; that the Qibla was not fixed towards Mecca until the eighth century, but to an area much further north, and possibly Jerusalem; that the Jews still retained a relationship with the Arabs until at least 640 A.D.; that Jerusalem and not Mecca was more-than-likely the city which contained the original sanctuary for Islam, as Mecca was not only unknown as a viable city until the end of the seventh century, but it was not even on the trade route; that the Dome of the Rock was the first sanctuary; that Muhammad was not classified as God's universal prophet until the late seventh century; that the terms Muslim'/ Islam' were not used until the end of the seventh century; that five daily prayers as well as the Hajj were not standardized until after 717 A.D.; that the earliest we even hear of any Qur'an is not until the mid-eighth century; and that the earliest Qur'anic writings do not coincide with the current Qur'anic text. All of this data contradicts the Qur'an which is in our possession, and adds to the suspicion that the Qur'an which we now read is NOT the same as that which was supposedly collated and canonized in 650 A.D. under Uthman, as Muslims contend (if indeed it even existed at that time). One can only assume that there must have been an evolution in the Qur'anic text. Consequently, the only thing we can say with any certainty is that only the documents which we now possess (from 790 A.D. onwards) are identical to those which are in our hands today, written not 16 years after Muhammad's death but 160 years later, and thus not 1,400 years ago, but a mere 1,200 years. The ramifications of this assertion are astounding indeed. Jay Smith - 3rd June 1996 Taken from http//debate.org.uk/topics/history/debate/debate.htm Wilson
  • Supreme Court of Islamic Jurisprudence...does it exist?

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    Modern governments have established methods to remove law or injunctions, laws that overtime have become outdated. The United States, for example, has the Supreme Court to overturn laws. As society changes so do the laws of the nation. Like in the US, laws were in place that forced the Black race into slavery. However, over time as society changed, the laws were able to change keeping pace with society to abolish slavery. I would like to know if the "traditional" Islamic Sharia has a system to purge anachronistic laws. For example, during the time of the Ottomans it was declared that to live in the land of the non-muslims was haraam. Also, it was declared that it was haraam to learn from an non-muslim teacher. Are these two injunctions still to be followed today according to Islamic Law? Or have they been removed? Can laws be contested? Seems like Islamic law is based upon a precedence system (specifically, a 7th century precedent) which requires blind adherence. You must obey the decision of the religous governing body.
  • Straight jacket or freedom (Are the restraints chafing?)

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    I was trying to respond to another thread elsewhere on this forum that was questioning the the sunni/shia's love of hadith and the Qurannic injunction "obey the messenger" being their sanction for the validity of following hadith. As someone who is very close to embracing Islam, I hope you all will not mind me putting my oar in so to speak, as the 2 responses I attempted to post on the earlier thread, both disapeared when i pressed submit. Anyway pressing on! If the sunni/shia both see the hadith as a sort of appendix to the Quran, where did the Messenger recieve all the minutiea regarding muslim daily life, if not from Allah? Did he gather it from previous messages from God? Did he find it inferred in the religious behaviour of those who had recieved the previous messages? If it was indeed revealed to him directly by God, why did God not consider it important enough to include the main body of his word the Quran? Could it be that Muhammad was well aware of the neccessity of creating a more formal religious/ritual foundation on which to stabilize an increasingly problematic community. A community struggling to find unity in the face of tribal loyalties and mistrust. Might there be something to say for the theory that the Quran which Allah sent to humanity through Muhammad was never meant to completely restrain humanity through dictatorial decree. What if God's Quran was deliberately vague in places in order to allow its guidance to be interpreted according to the mental, spiritual and societal advances throughout the ages? It appears to me that Mohammad was a strong resourceful and intelligent man, truly one of a kind, an inspiration. But as regards the hadith, I see him being in very real touch with his times, interpreting the qurannic message in a way which was certainly correct for the community and times in which he was living. I believe that if Mohammad had felt any different to this himself, he would have written his own appendicies to the Quran, but he knew there was no need, as the quran speaks clearly to each generation who like the Prophet, take the the time to pray, seek God,s guidance and interpret the Qurans message for their time. As I have said previously, my islamic knowledge is very limited and if I have said any thing here which has offended anyone, I ask your apology as no offence was intended. I am but a poor cabin boy aboard this great human ship of fools. ICEBERG AHEAD CAPTAIN! shock DAMN!!!!!!!!! roll
  • The Evils Of Television

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    Before we are drained by the flood "Oh you who believe, save yourselves and your families from the fire which is fueled by men and stones. Over it are angels who are stern, and strong, who do not disobey Allah's orders and they do what He orders ( 666 ). Praise be to Allaah who made the moon a lamp and the sun a light. Praise be to Allaah who made the night and day to follow one another for whoever wants to be thankful and to think about that. Praise be to Allaah who gave us vision and hearing and hearts and minds to think with and said that all of these will be asked about." Hmm too bad people are not using their eyes and ears and minds to see, hear and think! "Peace and blessings be upon Muhammad and his companions. Oh people, fear Allaah with the due, proper taqwaa. Oh Muslim Ummah, we have a great problem which is multi-faceted. It affects the general public and we see its particular ramifications. I am not going to talk about it in a general way, rather our speech on this subject will be both truthful and clear . We shall point the finger (so to speak) even if it is painful, and describe the problem even if it causes uneasiness . And we will give the details and call things by their name, (or tell it like it is.) Our speech today will be looking at a window of the windows of corruption. It is a window today and a door tomorrow. It is corruption today and destruction tomorrow. It is a speech about TV programs. It is a foundation of many problems. Oh people of faith, and people of Quraan. Oh you whom Allaah our Guardian says to say to the believers to lower their gazes ( 2430 ). And say to the female believers to lower their gazes ( 2431). Where is our portion (or relation to) these verses? Where do we stand in light of these verses as regards the TV? Do not your eyes look upon the perishing world and the "beauty " of it? Do you not look at all kinds of women (on TV) , and she is showing her beauty? And I don't say the that this is particularly a problem to the youth. No , rather it is a fitnah to all of us together; youth, men, middle aged people And whoever admits that Allaah has given him a pure nature, and whoever denies that - for he is another case. Until the repeated convulsions of the Day of Judgement. The day our women, wives, children, sisters, daughters sit in front of the TV and they see men on TV Truly a man is jealous if a man looks at his wife just one time. But he lets his wife look at men 100 times on TV And if we do this, we will sense the humiliation. And the women see men in parks , beaches, etc. raising their garments and showing their chests, etc. And not one man is able to prevent his women from doing this. Why? The answer--the plain truth it is that we (the men) are partners in the crime. If the man of the house is weak, the members of the family will sense it, and take the license to do the deeds. The principle there is -you be quiet about me for my sins and I won't mention yours. That is one of the dangers of TV And if we look at this it is not a light thing with our Lord. Rather the danger and harm is more and the fitnah is more severe. That is, that we justify or rationalize the corruption and make the perversions in these films out to be righteous. We teach our sons and children from an early age to lower their gaze and that for a man to look at a woman's face is haraam. Then comes these films showing couples alone--sweethearts--a young man and woman who would be getting married alone- before marriage. And this is made to look so sweet and enticing and desirable, more so than good provisions. This is a tremendous idea that is being put before our youth. They go out to the malls to meet, not to enjoin the right and forbid the wrong. They take these TV actors as heroes. And this is a great catastrophe. And a even greater catastrophe is that the TV conveys this culture and manners and way of life. It conveys the western (Shaytaanic),Un-Islaamic ways of the kuffaar. " So because I am western I am from Satan? "And in reality, we see in front of us, that the West is portrayed as the strong, the winner. The youths who watch this western way of life (as rotten as it is)" Oh you forgot to mention that the same things that go on here also occur in the "East" i.e. incest, prostitution, murder, rape, robbery etc. "...and they are portrayed as successful, then they ask "if they are like this, then what do we benefit by our way of life/" This is a dangerous question. The TV makes it look like their life is glamorous even with their evil ways. We witness this when we see the Muslim youth blindly following the perverted ways of the western actors in their deeds, their speech, and their hairstyles. And there is even a greater danger than this, that this sick is effectively conveying its ways and so much so that the actors are taken as role models. What is the result of this on the minds of our youths? Where is any example on these shows for our youths? As I mention these evils of TV, I am not forgetting that there are Quraan reciting programs and religious shows. But even with this, that does not negate the evils. So , the TV could have some good things on it. This is grievous to us that we have all of this evil mixed with a bit of good in it. The TV provides evil and good. What is the result of this? How would you like it if you were building a building and someone else came and destroyed it? This evil is like a flood which is about to drown us. There are 120 channels and only 24 hours in a day. The whole world is in front of one screen. We should not blame the kufar for inventing the TV, rather the Muslims are to be blamed for their lack of putting forth beneficial Islamic knowledge. The unislamic way of life is portrayed on TV with - kissing, drinking intoxicants, evils, etc. All of this is seen daily. Who is able to correct all of this? The criminal programs teach people how to be evil, police shows, violence, etc. Someone said if films are a collection of crimes, then TV is the station to portray them. Truly the seed(s) of destruction is planted in our mind and grows in our souls-from these poison programs, and produces a person who is unsound and perverts him and makes him a sick person. (One who watches TV, that is, don't think this is about someone else. It is you who watches TV.) Oh my brethren in Allah, truly this danger of TV is not something that we can deny or be ignorant of (we cannot stick our heads in the sand and ignore it.) We do have a defense against this flood which is coming. We must not be startled. The doors of corruption have been opened to us by the shayateen. We look at the sahaba- they were the greatest in faith and the purest in souls and the best mannered period. Even so, in the qur'an, Allah warned them, "Do not commit corruption, or even go near to it." What are we waiting for? We take this corruption in and do not fight it. Where is the struggle in the path of Allah. Where is the Islamic system. Where is the Dawah, the Islamic state, and the teaching of Islam. Where is the presentation of the Islamic way of life to the world?" I'd highly recommend teaching your followers, Mr. Imam, to start reading the Quran again in a language they could understand and practise the goodness that lies in it. "Are we the rich (the muslims,) not able to give to the poor (the kaffers.) Are we not able to offer them guidance?" Ah, another example of so called Muslim superiority. I am Muslim therefore I am better than you. I am obliged to teach you MY way, the right way. "The TV today is being used today for evil. In TV, is the means for good and evil, but the evil is greater than its good. The prophet (SAW) said in a hadtih " Truly the fitnahs will be presented to the hearts bit by bit." Truly this small screen has become a big thing to destroy our deen, our manners. It has taken the authority away from parents and teachers.Even in a country where there are two TV channels, the evil is great. What about tens of channels? The minister of trade of France said" the TV channels have become a way to portray American culture, and this is dangerous to the French people." With our warning of the coming flood, we will say what one westerner said "Kill it (the TV) before it kills you." Truly we can ride the arc of salvation to save us from the flood. It won't benefit us to think we can escape to a mountain to save us from the flood. I have a message to the Authorities. Who is the authority? YOU! You are the authority of your home. You must respond to this call. You must know that as long as this TV is in your home, it is a battle between you and it, and you must win. I warn you brothers to perceive and ponder these words. Truly the danger of TV is great. But you have the treatment which is to struggle with yourselves. We do not have the keys to our brains, to just benefit from the good of TV, and filter out the evil. So what do we have the power to control? We control our homes, we are going to be asked about them. We alone are their protectors. We must do what our lord will reward us for- Not to have this destructive appliance in our homes- EVER! Brother Muslims, I adjure you by your belief in Allah and the Last Day, I adjure you to get away from the haram things, for whoever does this, it is best for him. I adjure you to accept the prophet's statement " All of you are going to be asked about what is under your guardianship, and a man is guardian of his house." I adjure you to take a brave stand, even if it is hard, to get that TV out of your house. It is not impossible. People have done it, and not starved or perished. They eat, walk in the markets, and benefit, and have joy in their lives and peace in their homes. You are not able to repel the evil effects of TV, not on and in yourselves, or your spouses or your family. The people who are behind the production of Tv and films and dishes, do not respect our religion, our manners, and they do not fear the creator. The difference between them and us is like the difference between the east and the west. This is sufficient. Allah blessed us with Islam. Allah honored us with our obedience to Him. While he has dishonored them. Your beliefs, modesty, and love for your religion contrast with enjoying the insults of these corrupt ones. These Kuffar should be ashamed that they have these dishes, rather than proud of us. It is better for you to differ from them than to desire to be like them. The true happy life is the after life, and this happiness is for him who will be free from regret on the Last Day. Our Lord is quick to account. It is not beyond Allah top quickly punish anyone who tries to run from Him in opposition. These TV watchers destroy their after life for the present life's pleasures. They destroy their manners with their own money. They hand their children over to these TV channels, which destroys their minds their behaviors and beliefs. This creates a generation which is familiar with secularism and disbelief. It makes their eyes desensitizes to viewing the haram. It causes their thinking to glorify the west, and they do not do righteousness to their parents, or respect their mothers. The reason for this flood among the Muslims is the heedlessness of the last day. The day mankind will come individually to see their works. And whoever has done an atoms weight of good will see it. How much weight of evil is in these channels? Our taking TV lightly is even worse than accepting it. The hearts have drunk it in. Anas (RAA) said, " you all will do a deed, which you perceive as smaller than a fine hair. And in the time of the prophet (SAW) we saw it as a major destructive sin." So when will you become brave and determined to please your Lord and purify your house, and get the TV out of your house? The programs are designed to benefit everyone except you, because you have been distinguished by Islam. And they have no portion in the after life, no manners, and no religion. Oh you whom Allah has honored with obeying him, it is upon you to flee from the TV and take refuge in Allah from its evil, and do not depend upon it. In the afterlife, the results of TV are that it has some good and much evil, and that the evil is much greater than the good. So as to the Islamic ruling, Shaykhs Bin Baz, Ibn Jibreen, and Ibn 'Uthaymeen, have given the ruling. The truth has come to light and is clear. It is upon you to know what you must do. Oh Allah let us die in a state where we are not overtaken by trial let us be peaceful on the day of judgment. Make faith beautiful to us in our hearts, and make disbelief and disobedience hateful to us . Ameen Additional Notes Allah says in the qur'an, " Truly he who purifies his own soul is successful, and he who corrupts it is destroyed. " I ask How can anyone corrupt their own self with such filthy sinful garbage as is on TV which is also so below human dignity and intelligence. Do not you, the reader, love and respect yourself more than to view such smut, garbage, and filth? Do you not love Allah more than to clearly disobey Him in the numerous ways that TV causes one to do? Do you believe Allah when he says, whoever listens to music or makes musical instruments will be turned into a monkey and a pig (from hadith)? If so, do you want this for yourself? Of course not. Do you want to sit in the room where the devil is and the angels are not do to pictures and music on TV? No way. Let's talk about the evils of television and post it with a computer which is very similar to a television, using a machine invented in the evil West! roll Oh dear, I shall be turned into a monkey and a pig soon since I listen to music too! shock How can one be a monkey and a pig at the same time?
  • Time of Death, Predetermined, but from when

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    Peace everyone Appreciate anyones thought on the subject of Death and in what way is it predertimed (time). There are a number of verses eg 661 & 6311 to mention a few that mention this subject. Although they are translated differently from simply 'time of death' to 'appointed time of death'. So I would like to know if people feel that It is predetermined from the minute we are born or maybe even before. Or Is it predetermined by God, but that it could be determined at any time in your life, ie God may decide today to end your life tomorrow, still predetermined but not in the normal way people think. Thanks Phillip
  • Now this is a scary website......

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    www.asktheimam.com shock shock shock shock
  • Importance of our "Mawla".

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    Peace be on all readers, During one of my interchanges with one of the forum members I had indicated that Ar-Rahman was my Lord and my Mawla. Someone found this a little unusual and replied Who is MOWLA? Shia say Mowla ALI. Is same. Unfortunately this title has been misappropriated and abused by humans. To add to the problem, I think unknowingly translators, including RK and Free-Minds have not done the word justice in their translation Khalifa 4711 This is because GOD is the Lord of those who believe, while the disbelievers have no lord. Free-Minds 4711. This is because God is the Master for those who believe, while the disbelievers have no master. These are both plainly wrong. I believe this should be like other translations such as Yusuf Ali which makes this 4711 That is because God is the Protector of those who believe, but those who reject God have no protector. Thalika bi-anna Allaha mawla allatheena amanoo waanna alkafireena la mawla lahum Allah tells us in sura Fatihah that He is the Lord of ALL CREATION. He is the "Rabb" of all creation whether they acknowledge this or not. So Allah is the Lord of all the unbelievers also. However, as can be seen from the Arabic transliteration of 4711, even though He is the Lord of all, Allah is the Mawla of only believers. Mawla means Protector or Patron (Advocate, Defender, Encourager) and is quite different from God's role as Lord or Master. There is another important reference to Allah as our Mawla as distinct from Lord (which is also mentioned in the same verse) in 2286 (which Khalifa again mistranslates and Free-minds uses the correct but uncapitalised "patron" so I give Yusuf Ali's) 2286 On no soul doth God Place a burden greater than it can bear. It gets every good that it earns, and it suffers every ill that it earns. (Pray) "Our Lord! Condemn us not if we forget or fall into error; our Lord! Lay not on us a burden Like that which Thou didst lay on those before us; Our Lord! Lay not on us a burden greater than we have strength to bear. Blot out our sins, and grant us forgiveness. Have mercy on us. Thou art our Protector; Help us against those who stand against faith." La yukallifu Allahu nafsan illa wusAAaha laha ma kasabat waAAalayha ma iktasabat rabbana la tu-akhithna in naseena aw akhta/na rabbana wala tahmil AAalayna isran kama hamaltahu AAala allatheena min qablina rabbana wala tuhammilna ma la taqata lana bihi waoAAfu AAanna waighfir lana wairhamna anta mawlana faonsurna AAala alqawmi alkafireena I hope everyone now understands what I mean by Ar-Rahman being our Mawla. It is a term that is used with flagrant disregard in traditional islam, especially as it is practiced in and around Pakistan and India where almost every religious scholar appropriates the term "mawlana". We should reserve this term for Allah only; and I believe uses for humans of it ought to be avoided by sincere believers. With peace and love, Oben
  • An alternative view on the problems of the "Islamic&quo

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    http//www.tellthechildrenthetruth.com/ourmessage.htm
  • 70:40 - The "I", "We" and the "Lord

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    Peace be upon you all, I was examining this verse 7040 recently and the issue of whose words the Quran is actually in occurred once more. You may find it interesting also. 70.40 YUSUFALI Now I do call to witness the Lord of all points in the East and the West that We can certainly- PICKTHAL But nay! I swear by the Lord of the rising-places and the setting-places of the planets that We verily are Able SHAKIR But nay! I swear by the Lord of the Easts and the Wests that We are certainly able 70.41 YUSUFALI Substitute for them better (men) than they; And We are not to be defeated (in Our Plan). PICKTHAL To replace them by (others) better than them. And we are not to be outrun. SHAKIR To bring instead (others) better than them, and We shall not be overcome. My thinking is that it is Gabriel (I) swearing by God (the Lord of all points in the East and West) that We (the heavenly consortium - ie. God and His angels) can do the things in 7041. There have been other threads discussing this issue and Anwar on peopleprogod has an article about it that does not discuss this particular verse. You can see it at http//www.peopleprogod.org/whoisspeaking.html . In any case I hope people can either verify what I have indicated or correct it if they see it as being wrong. Peace,