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  4. Remembering the true nature of our enemy

Remembering the true nature of our enemy

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    Ghulam_Rasool
    wrote on last edited by
    #85

    Dear friends, there is no verse in the Holy Quran which abrogates the Torah injunction of death for adultery. On the contrary, there is a verse whose wording has been forgotten, but the ruling still applies, it is called the Verse of Rajm (stoning). Similarly, from the sunnat we can clearly see how Ahazrat (sallallahu alaihi wa salaam) carried out the punishment for adultery by stoning adulterers to death.

    I can see why Quranists do not believe in stoning to death for adultery. It depends on what you accept as revelation that determines your view on this matter. Jazak Allah khair.

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      jankren
      wrote on last edited by
      #86

      I can see why Quranists do not believe in stoning to death for adultery. It depends on what you accept as revelation that determines your view on this matter. Jazak Allah khair.

      Exactly my friend. In that case I believe Al Quran is the only revelation Muslims are supposed to follow.

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        AaRoN
        wrote on last edited by
        #87

        all hail the convoluted logic

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          Samia
          wrote on last edited by
          #88

          I can see why Quranists do not believe in stoning to death for adultery. It depends on what you accept as revelation that determines your view on this matter. Jazak Allah khair.

          Correction I can't see; because you can't see the Truth.
          Depends on what you accept as revalation? We accept ONE revalation, but that does not satisfy you, and you can't see, can't understand, wonder why...

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            savage_carrot
            wrote on last edited by
            #89

            Agree with Samia. There is no relativity involved here. One revelation that is supposedly accepted by all yet conveniently ignored.

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              Yosemite
              wrote on last edited by
              #90

              On the contrary, there is a verse whose wording has been forgotten, but the ruling still applies, it is called the Verse of Rajm (stoning).

              Are you saying that Allah could not guard the full integrity and truth of His book?

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                Samia
                wrote on last edited by
                #91

                The recitation of the verse of rajm was abrogated, but its ruling is still applicable.

                Hazrat Umar (ra) said No doubt, Allah sent Muhammad (sallallahu alaihi wa salaam) with the Truth and revealed to him the Book (Quran), and among what was revealed, was the Verse of Ar-Rajm (stoning adulterers to death). (Sahih Bukhari)

                Now, this "hadith" belongs to Omar, not to the prophet, so it is not a prophetic saying, but a "omaric" one. Does God say "obey the companions"?

                Also, what was the prophet doing losing verses? Isn't it his job to deliver? Do you imply that he was not that honest or careful? Or is this a result of him being "illiterate" he did not know what was written and what was missing? What an insult to the prophet!! You should be ashamed of what you believe.

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                  Ghulam_Rasool
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #92

                  Now, this "hadith" belongs to Omar, not to the prophet, so it is not a prophetic saying, but a "omaric" one. Does God say "obey the companions"?

                  Also, what was the prophet doing losing verses? Isn't it his job to deliver? Do you imply that he was not that honest or careful? Or is this a result of him being "illiterate" he did not know what was written and what was missing? What an insult to the prophet!! You should be ashamed of what you believe.

                  Allah is the one who causes verses to be forgotten, which are part of His own plan.

                  None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things? (2106)

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                    Samia
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #93

                    Allah is the one who causes verses to be forgotten, which are part of His own plan.

                    None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things? (2106)

                    Just great! God causes the verse to be forgotten, but Omar remembers it brickwall
                    According to this hadith, it seems that neither the prophet nor his lord are doing a good job! Omar beat them both and Bukhari beat the hell out of muslims.

                    And what, in your opinion, was the better or similar substitution, or any substitution of this alleged lost-and-found verse?

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                      Ghulam_Rasool
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #94

                      Just great! God causes the verse to be forgotten, but Omar remembers it

                      Allah caused the WORDING of the verse to be forgotten. Even Hazrat Omar (ra) did not remember the wording of the ayatur rajm. However, he was among many of the sahaba who were witnesses to the tanzil of Holy Quran, and he knew for a fact that a verse commanding stoning to death for adultery had indeed been revealed in the Holy Quran, though he did not remember the wording of the verse (which is why it isnt found in the Holy Quran), because the wording was caused to be forgotten/abrogated by Allah (though the ruling of the verse still applies).

                      So I suggest you consult the following resource to learn more about this matter
                      http//qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=7&ID=1856&CATE=1

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                        Nurd
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #95

                        Allah caused the WORDING of the verse to be forgotten. Even Hazrat Omar (ra) did not remember the wording of the ayatur rajm. However, he was among many of the sahaba who were witnesses to the tanzil of Holy Quran, and he knew for a fact that a verse commanding stoning to death for adultery had indeed been revealed in the Holy Quran, though he did not remember the wording of the verse (which is why it isnt found in the Holy Quran), because the wording was caused to be forgotten/abrogated by Allah (though the ruling of the verse still applies).

                        So I suggest you consult the following resource to learn more about this matter
                        http//qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=7&ID=1856&CATE=1

                        Unfortunately your link uses only hadith as proof, and since those cannot be trusted they fail to prove anything. All we can know for sure is that the Quran does not have in it any verses telling us to stone adulterers therefor it should not be done.

                        Peace,

                        Nurd

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                          zenje
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #96

                          Peace Nurd and all,

                          Yusha has been warned about this issue. If he is to talk about hadith he is supposed to be doing it in the appropriate section on this board.

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                            Ghulam_Rasool
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #97

                            Dear brother, I am using the HOLY QURAN to justify my arguments and beliefs. Please go through my posts and see the sheer number of verses which I have quoted.

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                              zenje
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #98

                              I have gone through your posts just today, the one here with the link, the other one in the Latest news section, where you quote a verse which is fine, and then you continue to validate your point with hadith.

                              Peace

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                                phoenix1
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #99

                                Peace
                                well, I don't think the "revelatiions" in 2106 is referring to verses but doesn't it say that god does not allow revelations to be forgotten?

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                                  Yosemite
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #100

                                  Allah is the one who causes verses to be forgotten, which are part of His own plan.

                                  None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things? (2106)

                                  Wait, because before the "do We abrogate" is written "None of Our revelations". This means it talks about revelations, books, right? Then we have "but We substitute something better or similar" This means the stoning have been subsitued to something better or similar, right?

                                  Tell me if 'im wrong here please.

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                                    Samia
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #101

                                    Wait, because before the "do We abrogate" is written "None of Our revelations". This means it talks about revelations, books, right? Then we have "but We substitute something better or similar" This means the stoning have been subsitued to something better or similar, right?

                                    Tell me if 'im wrong here please.

                                    Good point, Yosemite. You do not bring a new verse in order to abrogate it by an older one! Why the trouble in the first place?

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                                      Ghulam_Rasool
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #102

                                      Wait, because before the "do We abrogate" is written "None of Our revelations". This means it talks about revelations, books, right? Then we have "but We substitute something better or similar" This means the stoning have been subsitued to something better or similar, right?

                                      Tell me if 'im wrong here please.

                                      The wording of the verse of stoning has been caused to be forgotten (by Allah). It has been replaced by something similar, which is found in the Ahadeeth.

                                      but We substitute something better or similar

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                                        phoenix1
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #103

                                        Yusha, 2106 says that NONE of the revelations are abrogated or caused to be forgotten. They are NOT abrogated or caused to be forgotten by god. Unless I'm reading that verse wrong.

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                                          Samia
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #104

                                          The wording of the verse of stoning has been caused to be forgotten (by Allah). It has been replaced by something similar, which is found in the Ahadeeth.

                                          but We substitute something better or similar

                                          And the substitute is?

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