Defenition of marriage suggests sex before marriage permitted?!

unknownuser

Peace siki,

God's book is over you, conveys, Go by my book , look in here (book) for instructions, abide by the appropriate law relevant to the issue etc.

So govern your sexual relationships according to the instruction that He is issuing, and it says , seek them with your money , with an aim that you want to continue being chaste , meaning you are doing this to control your sexual desires, Not making it a regularised fornication or prostitution. And what ever you decide to give her as a wage , you must give her before you touch her.

"Mohsinnate" has to have one meaning. We can not translate it at as chaste, and at another as married. It is absolutely wrong to translate "Mohsinnate" as married. let me show you how.

4-25, if you cant marry a believing married women , marry a married believing young female among mma.

5-5 -- today all married believing women ,and married women of the people of the book are halal.

24-4 those who accuse married women and then fail bring in 4 witnesses flog them--- does that mean that one can accuse an unmarried chaste woman and get away with it?

24-23 Those who accuse believing married women who are careless === again same as above.

I know what you are trying to ask? but at this time I have to first fight this case out , later we will discuss ,as to why God has not used Nikah at certain places.

siki

Nor can they be only single women; flip it around use your same words?

24-4 those who accuse single women and then fail bring in 4 witnesses flog them--- does that mean that one can accuse an unsingle chaste woman and get away with it?

24-23 Those who accuse believing single women who are careless === again same as above.

In addition, if applicable to only single women

No prohibition stated in Qur?an against sex with married believing women (not it 243)
No punishment for adultery (the married) stated in Qur?an which is how traditionalists view 244 that it only applies to singles and stoning for the married (according to hadith).

As stated prior, is marital status neutral, applicable to married or single adult women similar to ?lady? in English and needs to be examined in context.

To repeat example; exact same word different meaning derived from context

411 - he directs you (p) - God - in - you (p) children

to the male - alike - luck/fortune - the two females

5417 ? and We have - eased ? the Qur?an - to the remembrance - so is there - from ? those who remember/are mindful

nsws1988

I still believe MMA is the Katb al Kitab. That is where you make on oath of marriage and everything but the ceremony did not take place. Its an oath(vows) and its considered a legal marraige although usually a house is need for the marraige to be made official.

Peace

I actually watched a chat show today on arabic TV. They were talking about marriage. The guest was saying something about how some people before they properly get married, they sign the papers and they call it a "possession", as if they have signed the papers to own the woman. Like an IOU. He linked it to MMA, I can't remember what he said exactly but basically that it is nicer term as the man doesn't own the woman. I guess he was implying that the signing stage is the MMA.
By house, you mean this is before they move in together to start married life? So they can basically live with the groom's mother, as they do in many countries, or spend the first night at a hotel, and not necessarily own a house. Am I correct?

God bless

nsws1988

Peace

I actually watched a chat show today on arabic TV. They were talking about marriage. The guest was saying something about how some people before they properly get married, they sign the papers and they call it a "possession", as if they have signed the papers to own the woman. Like an IOU. He linked it to MMA, I can't remember what he said exactly but basically that it is nicer term as the man doesn't own the woman. I guess he was implying that the signing stage is the MMA.
By house, you mean this is before they move in together to start married life? So they can basically live with the groom's mother, as they do in many countries, or spend the first night at a hotel, and not necessarily own a house. Am I correct?

God bless

Peace

I've just realised something...

425 If any of you have not the means wherewith to wed free believing women, they may wed believing girls from among those whom your right hands possess And Allah hath full knowledge about your faith.

So if you don't have the means to marry a free believing woman, then marry the one who you have already signed an oath with?
Why would the man want to marry a woman if he already has an oath with another woman?

Now I am backed to confused ???

God bless

Q_student

Peace

I've just realised something...

425 If any of you have not the means wherewith to wed free believing women, they may wed believing girls from among those whom your right hands possess And Allah hath full knowledge about your faith.

So if you don't have the means to marry a free believing woman, then marry the one who you have already signed an oath with?
Why would the man want to marry a woman if he already has an oath with another woman?

Now I am backed to confused ???

God bless

Salaam
To own some human being is equivalent to making him/her slave. All human beings are equal. No one can own anyone.If it occurs it is unislamic. Husband and wife they sign a contract on equal basis. No one owns anyone.Wife is not a "commodity " which you own.
Regards

Samia

Salaam
To own some human being is equivalent to making him/her slave. All human beings are equal. No one can own anyone. If it occurs it is unislamic. Husband and wife they sign a contract on equal basis. No one owns anyone.Wife is not a "commodity " which you own.
Regards

Thanks student! Though obvious, but I am surprised that soem still dwell in this slae, owned, chaste fiasco...and ajr becomes a single payment for sex rendered

siki

Peace siki,

Nor can they be only single women; flip it around use your same words?

24-4 those who accuse single women and then fail bring in 4 witnesses flog them--- does that mean that one can accuse an unsingle chaste woman and get away with it?

24-23 Those who accuse believing single women who are careless === again same as above.

In addition, if applicable to only single women

No prohibition stated in Qur?an against sex with married believing women (not it 243)
No punishment for adultery (the married) stated in Qur?an which is how traditionalists view 244 that it only applies to singles and stoning for the married (according to hadith).

As stated prior, is marital status neutral, applicable to married or single adult women similar to ?lady? in English and needs to be examined in context.

To repeat example; exact same word different meaning derived from context

411 - he directs you (p) - God - in - you (p) children

to the male - alike - luck/fortune - the two females

5417 ? and We have - eased ? the Qur?an - to the remembrance - so is there - from ? those who remember/are mindful

Did I ever say that they are single women? It means Hallal chaste woman, if she is married, she is not available.

Your understanding , and mine is almost the same.

siki

siki

Peace

I've just realised something...

425 If any of you have not the means wherewith to wed free believing women, they may wed believing girls from among those whom your right hands possess And Allah hath full knowledge about your faith.

So if you don't have the means to marry a free believing woman, then marry the one who you have already signed an oath with?
Why would the man want to marry a woman if he already has an oath with another woman?

Now I am backed to confused ???

God bless

precisely,

If you had a right hand possession , that meant that you were rich and well placed , so to start with you should not have had a problem in getting a Mohsinna for marriage.

If you had a right hand possession, you had an out let, so the second part of aya , which says , if you fear falling in sin, only then you should marry a MMA, but if you could abstain that was better" does not full fill the criteria.

You are not marrying , your right hand possession, You are marrying some one's right hand possession, with his permission.

And he (ahel) is being instructed in 24-33 to free her, if she asks a deed in this regard.

siki

siki

Salaam
To own some human being is equivalent to making him/her slave. All human beings are equal. No one can own anyone.If it occurs it is unislamic. Husband and wife they sign a contract on equal basis. No one owns anyone.Wife is not a "commodity " which you own.
Regards

Ma Malakat emnakum are history, exactly like the way we don"t find slaves anymore, but back then, they existed, so why are you surprised? Who are these black people in America ? they were all slaves a century back, Mankind has come a long way brother.

I think I would have been more surprised if the book did not contain any instruction regarding them.

siki

siki

OK, this is getting weird. Now God is addressing the rejectors. No sane believer will push his girls into prostitution. It is understandable that he will forgive the girls being pushed, but He didn't get mad on the pushers.

Which world are you living?
During course of your life , you will get to know many who do that. As for getting mad at pushers, He did forbade them. And when he clearly forbids something, and we do not take heed, better be ready for great repercussions.

siki

Q_student

Ma Malakat emnakum are history, exactly like the way we don"t find slaves anymore, but back then, they existed, so why are you surprised? Who are these black people in America ? they were all slaves a century back, Mankind has come a long way brother.

I think I would have been more surprised if the book did not contain any instruction regarding them.

siki

Salaam Brother
Can you produce Quranic evidence for their existence ?
Regards

siki

Salaam Brother
Can you produce Quranic evidence for their existence ?
Regards

about whom?

Q_student

about whom?

Salaam

but back then, they existed, so why are you surprised

Quranic proof for their existence when Quran was revealed.
Regards

nsws1988

Salaam
To own some human being is equivalent to making him/her slave. All human beings are equal. No one can own anyone.If it occurs it is unislamic. Husband and wife they sign a contract on equal basis. No one owns anyone.Wife is not a "commodity " which you own.
Regards

Peace

I wasn't implying that a man can own a woman. The man was just saying that some people call it a 'possession' when they sign the contract, which he said is wrong, and defintely unislamic! Like I said, I can't remember how he linked it to mma but it was something to do with the signing stage of marriage and that it had nothing to do with 'possessing' the woman.

precisely,

If you had a right hand possession , that meant that you were rich and well placed , so to start with you should not have had a problem in getting a Mohsinna for marriage.

If you had a right hand possession, you had an out let, so the second part of aya , which says , if you fear falling in sin, only then you should marry a MMA, but if you could abstain that was better" does not full fill the criteria.

You are not marrying , your right hand possession, You are marrying some one's right hand possession, with his permission.

And he (ahel) is being instructed in 24-33 to free her, if she asks a deed in this regard.

siki

Hmmm. Makes sense. I'll think about that.
Can you give me the verse numbers please so I can check it in Arabic.

God bless

siki

Salaam
Quranic proof for their existence when Quran was revealed.
Regards

So , I think I have been talking Greek since last few days.

Have I even once referred to any Hadith or man made history book? Brother! what I have been talking is Quran , pure Quran, nothing but Quran.

Q_student

So , I think I have been talking Greek since last few days.

Have I even once referred to any Hadith or man made history book? Brother! what I have been talking is Quran , pure Quran, nothing but Quran.

Salaam
Brother provide the proof then and also how do these MMA exist now.
Unless you decide their nature ,you cannot locate them in todays society.
Regards

siki

Peace

Hmmm. Makes sense. I'll think about that.
Can you give me the verse numbers please so I can check it in Arabic.

God bless

4-25, ---- and marry them with the permission of "Ahlehunna"
24-33 --- mimma Ma Malakat emnakum fa katiboohum----
References are already there in the post , i think you dont bother to read .

siki

siki

Salaam
Brother provide the proof then and also how do these MMA exist now.
Unless you decide their nature ,you cannot locate them in todays society.
Regards

I have not come across any MMA or a slave. It is long gone. Future, I dont know, they might be back, Man kind is very cruel by nature. Just wait for the WW-3. ;D

nsws1988

4-25, ---- and marry them with the permission of "Ahlehunna"
24-33 --- mimma Ma Malakat emnakum fa katiboohum----

References are already their in the post , i think you dont bother to read .

siki

Well you thought wrong.
If I didn't bother to read then I would'nt have bothered to reply.
I actually thought that you only gave the verse number for...

And he (ahel) is being instructed in 24-33 to free her, if she asks a deed in this regard.

Q_student

I have not come across any MMA or a slave. It is long gone. Future, I dont know, they might be back, Man kind is very cruel by nature. Just wait for the WW-3. ;D

salaam
Why do you call them "slaves" ? Why are all of you applying them today when they do not exist .
MMA = what is their nature and status according to quran ?
Regards

Tlepsh

Nisa 23-24-25
Prohibited to you (for marriage) are
? your mothers,
? daughters,
? sisters;
? father's sisters,
? mother's sisters;
? brother's daughters,
? sister's daughters;
? foster mothers (who gave you suck),
? foster sisters;
? your wives' mothers;
? your step-daughters residing in your homes from your wives which you have already consummated the marriage with; if you have not consummated the marriage then there is no sin upon you
? the wives of your sons that are from your seed;
? that you join between two sisters except what has already been done
for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful;

and permitted for you is what is beyond this, if you are seeking
? with your money
? if you are immune (muhsan)
? not for illicit sex.
As for those whom you have already had joy with them, then you shall give them their wage as an obligation. There is no sin upon you for what you agree to after the obligation. God is Knowledgeable, Wise.

Also women who are immune (muhsanat) are prohibited for you, except those whom your oaths possess (except those who agree voluntarily) if Allah has written on you so.
If any of you have not the physical ability to marry immune women, they may marry believing girls from among those whom your oaths possess(among from those who agree voluntarily) and Allah has full knowledge about your Faith. You are one from another You shall marry them with the permission of their parents and give them their wage in kindness; They shall be
? immune (able to have sex),
? not wanting illicit sex
? not taking lovers.
If they become immune (wanting to have sex), then any of them who comes with lewdness shall have half the punishment of what is for the (normal) immune women of the retribution. This is for those who fear hardship from among you. But if you are patient it is better for you, and God is Forgiver, Merciful.