Free-Minds.org is another Sect...like Suni and Shia Sects.
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Peace all,
Wakas, let us take it one by one...second, the passive verbRemember, I understand Arabic very well because it is my natural language (All my studies, except for graduate, were in Arabic).
So, have an open mind when arguing about Arabic Language.Quote
wujida = 3rd person singular masculine passive perfect verbpassive means the object (cup) has received the action expressed in the verb.
end quotewas found (i.e., the cup is the object under search)
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Peace all,
As Everyone can see, Free-minds.org has translated the Quran in a way to fit its doctrine (5-3. As I showed, 12-75 is an example of which wakas tried to translate in a way to fit 5-38.
Please compare the below word by word translation and see if it supports their translation of 5-38, as they claimThey Said
His outcome
whom
is found (cup is found)
in
his bag
then it is
His outcome
in this way do
We Punish (consequence becomes punishment for illegal action)
the wrongdoersHere is the quote from the twisted article Wakas has been referencing too (http//misconceptions-about-islam.com/cut-off-hands-theft.htm)
Began Quote
It should be said however that the only working example given in The Quran of theft and its punishment is in the story of Joseph, in which option 3 is done by detaining the one guilty of theft, so that they can work to repay/compensate for the theft.They said, "By God, you know we did not come to cause corruption in the land, and we are no thieves!"
He said, "What shall be the punishment, if you are not truthful?"
They said, "The punishment is that the person who has it in his bag, he shall be the penalty for it. It is such that we punish the wicked."End Quote
Finally,
Here is a scenario that I want you to participate inAn Island in which a group of families decided to start their Quran Alone Community that is governed by the Quran Laws.
Every one in the Island is guaranteed to have all the life necessities (through a Job or through charities funds) ...After a while, one of the community member had a Bad habit of stealing any thing he can put his hand on...The community decided to appoint you (any one of you) as a Judge who will use the Quran only to issue judgment in the case.
While issuing a Quranic Judgment, take into consideration the following
The thief has been caught and released many times after he promised that he would not do again.Peace
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peace BelH,
Yes, let's take things one at a time. I will answer your questions, even though you disrespectfully do not answer mine
Was there a plot?
Yes, it was God's plan .Who placed the cup in the bag of Joseph's brother?
Joseph.was found (i.e., the cup is the object under search)
I agree.
Now, onto my questions
Have you read M.Asad's notes on this story? If so, right or wrong?
If Joseph put the cup in his brother's bag, does this mean he planned the plot?
If you answer yes to the above question, does that mean his plan was reliant upon his helpers noticing the cup was gone, AND the unpredictable response of the sons of Jacob AND them not noticing the illogical switch in plural to singular to plural in the helper's statements?
According to 1276 who planned the plot?
Can you cite a Classical Arabic dictionary stating "jazao" means "punishment"?
If "jazaohu" means "his outcome" (according to you) in 1274, then please explain the illogical use of plural, then singular, then plural by the helpers?And thanks for providing yet another rendition of 1275 but there is a mistake in the grammar (highlighted in bold), not that I agree with your translation
They Said
His outcome
whom
is found (cup is found)
in
his bag
then it is
His outcome
in this way do
We Punish (consequence becomes punishment for illegal action)
the wrongdoershuwa = 3rd person singular masculine personal pronoun, meaning "he".
As opposed to the "hu" in "jazaohu" which is a possessive pronoun.So BelH, please try yet another rendition, since you know Arabic and all. And whilst your at it, confirm to us all how your rendition is exactly the way it would be said in Arabic if it meant what you think it means.
Remember, I understand Arabic very well because it is my natural language (All my studies, except for graduate, were in Arabic).
So, have an open mind when arguing about Arabic Language.Oh I have an open mind, dont worry. My mind is so open that I think knowing Arabic is no match for the power of logic/reasoning.
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Peace all,
Wakas, let us take it one by one...First, is there was a Plot or no?who do you think placed the Measuring bowl in the bag of Yousuf's Brother?
1270 So when he furnished them with their provisions, he placed the measuring bowl in the saddlebag of his brother, then a caller cried out O you in the caravan, you are thieves!
It was God's plan, Joseph carried it out.
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Peace all,
As Everyone can see, Free-minds.org has translated the Quran in a way to fit its doctrine (5-3. As I showed, 12-75 is an example of which wakas tried to translate in a way to fit 5-38.
Please compare the below word by word translation and see if it supports their translation of 5-38, as they claimThey Said
His outcome
whom
is found (cup is found)
in
his bag
then it is
His outcome
in this way do
We Punish (consequence becomes punishment for illegal action)
the wrongdoersHere is the quote from the twisted article Wakas has been referencing too (http//misconceptions-about-islam.com/cut-off-hands-theft.htm)
Began Quote
It should be said however that the only working example given in The Quran of theft and its punishment is in the story of Joseph, in which option 3 is done by detaining the one guilty of theft, so that they can work to repay/compensate for the theft.They said, "By God, you know we did not come to cause corruption in the land, and we are no thieves!"
He said, "What shall be the punishment, if you are not truthful?"
They said, "The punishment is that the person who has it in his bag, he shall be the penalty for it. It is such that we punish the wicked."End Quote
Finally,
Here is a scenario that I want you to participate inAn Island in which a group of families decided to start their Quran Alone Community that is governed by the Quran Laws.
Every one in the Island is guaranteed to have all the life necessities (through a Job or through charities funds) ...After a while, one of the community member had a Bad habit of stealing any thing he can put his hand on...The community decided to appoint you (any one of you) as a Judge who will use the Quran only to issue judgment in the case.
While issuing a Quranic Judgment, take into consideration the following
The thief has been caught and released many times after he promised that he would not do again.Peace
Am i learning from a wrong teacher confused
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Have you read M.Asad's notes on this story? If so, right or wrong?
No...but I will be glad to comment if you quote the part you want me to comment on.
If Joseph put the cup in his brother's bag, does this mean he planned the plot?
As Jack said, Yousuf carried the planned plot. (every thing that happen in our life depends on God's well for it to happen or not)
If you answer yes to the above question, does that mean his plan was reliant upon his helpers noticing the cup was gone, AND the unpredictable response of the sons of Jacob AND them not noticing the illogical switch in plural to singular to plural in the helper's statements?
I'm having a problem to understand the point...but, The helpers only follow their master (yousuf) orders. The helper were told by Yousuf to catch one and not all as a group, simply because Yousuf wanted His brother only. But if He wanted to arrest all, he would have ordered them to do so, then the PLURAL would have stayed PLURAL.
If "jazaohu" means "his outcome" (according to you) in 1274, then please explain the illogical use of plural, then singular, then plural by the helpers?
Answered above
They Said
His outcome
whom
is found (cup is found)
in
his bag
then it is
His outcome
in this way do
We Punish (consequence becomes punishment for illegal action)
the wrongdoershuwa = 3rd person singular masculine personal pronoun, meaning "he".
As opposed to the "hu" in "jazaohu" which is a possessive pronoun.Huwa= 3rd thing masculine Huwa is Referring TO The Outcome....thus, I used "It"
So BelH, please try yet another rendition, since you know Arabic and all. And whilst your at it, confirm to us all how your rendition is exactly the way it would be said in Arabic if it meant what you think it means.
can you explain further.
And I agree with you, knowing Arabic is not enough to understand the Quran...
Can you be the judge on this case
An Island in which a group of families decided to start their Quran Alone Community that is governed by the Quran Laws.
Every one in the Island is guaranteed to have all the life necessities (through a Job or through charities funds) ...After a while, one of the community member had a Bad habit of stealing any thing he can put his hand on...The community decided to appoint you (any one of you) as a Judge who will use the Quran only to issue judgment in the case.
While issuing a Quranic Judgment, take into consideration the following
The thief has been caught and released many times after he promised that he would not do again. -
Peace belH, Wakas,
you are still arguing on this subject, you are very patient, i command you )
for me it is not joseph story that convince me that amputating hand is not what the ayah means,
only the way the sentence is written, the logic of the way we can deal with such offenses, and the fact that
Allah does not command stupid things, the Most Wise.
now for the reason Joseph story cannot be taken as proof anyway, is because nothing was forbidden to bani israeel but
what bani israeel forbade themselves before revelation of Torah to Moses...
for your hypothetical example of desert island and repeat offender, as a judge, i will enforce forced labour under guard or in confinement away from the community with people like him, or even putting to death...
i am sorry, taking prisoners or mutilating for me is not islamic and is an abomination, and if they have been mentioned in the Quran, is only to show the powerful disbelievers that this is how they should be punished because this is how they punish their weak people and slaves before (but instead have no law for themselves and a law for their slaves)...
How can you accept that a Deen that encourage people to free slaves, will then encourage mutilation and taking prisoners?
even killing is last resort, and it has to be with consultation with victims who can accept compensation and forgive...
In Islam, there should not be prisons, no torture, no maiming, no mutilation, and no encouragement to slavery, in fact the only reason slavery was tolerated still is because it was so prevalent at the time of the Prophet, but eventually, the Quran showed that the reward to free slaves is very high with Allah...
the only corporal punishment for the believers in the Quran is Zina, it is clearly defined, clearly explained, and in a Surah that is very powerful...
take it or leave it, but this is my strong belief...
alfitnatu ashaddu minalkatli -
I do not think the "consequence" is a good translation for . It's best translated as "recompense".
My understanding is
1274
(the pronoun in refers to the cup the recompense for the cup)
They said what's its recompense if you were liars?1274They said its recompense, whoever it's found in his bag is its recompense. 1275
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for your hypothetical example of desert island and repeat offender, as a judge, i will enforce forced labour under guard or in confinement away from the community with people like him, or even putting to death...
i am sorry, taking prisoners or mutilating for me is not islamic and is an abomination, and if they have been mentioned in the Quran, is only to show the powerful disbelievers that this is how they should be punished because this is how they punish their weak people and slaves before (but instead have no law for themselves and a law for their slaves)...
How can you accept that a Deen that encourage people to free slaves, will then encourage mutilation and taking prisoners?
even killing is last resort, and it has to be with consultation with victims who can accept compensation and forgive...Peace Nabster,
Please note that to be the Judge in this community, You MUST use the Quran...It is a Precondition, otherwise, you cannot be the Judge.
Please, you need to quote the Verses that Supports your Judgment (i.e., Killing the thief)
Peace
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I do not think the "consequence" is a good translation for . It's best translated as "recompense".
My understanding is
1274
(the pronoun in refers to the cup the recompense for the cup)
They said what's its recompense if you were liars?1274They said its recompense, whoever it's found in his bag is its recompense. 1275
Do you mean this meaning
to give something to by way of compensation (as for a service rendered or damage incurred) b to pay for
2 to return in kind requite
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Do you mean this meaning
to give something to by way of compensation (as for a service rendered or damage incurred)Almost. I referred to the noun, not the verb
More precisely
"Payment given to someone because of slight problems or because of the loss of or damage to their propertye.g I received ?500 from the local council in recompense for the damage to my garden".
(Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary)
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I do not think the "consequence" is a good translation for . It's best translated as "recompense".
Samia,
This how I translate 5-38...Do you think I made a mistake in my translation?538
And the Thief (Male)
and the Thief (Female)
Cut
Their Hands
as an Outcome
for what
they earn
as a Harsh Punishment
from
Allah
and Allah
Nobel
Wise -
Almost. I referred to the noun, not the verb
More precisely
"Payment given to someone because of slight problems or because of the loss of or damage to their propertye.g I received ?500 from the local council in recompense for the damage to my garden".
(Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary)
But you are ignoring the Fact that Can be Taking Money, instead of giving, because of a damage that is caused by the person Whom you are taking the money from...Thus, Outcome Fits better because it can be used both way (as a reward or Punishment)
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But you are ignoring the Fact that Can be Taking Money, instead of giving, because of a damage that is caused by the person Whom you are taking the money from...Thus, Outcome Fits better because it can be used both way (as a reward or Punishment)
They are taking the brother...as a recompense for the lost cup
"The recompense for it; whomever the cup is in his bag is the recompense for it" 1275. -
They are taking the brother...as a recompense for the lost cup
"The recompense for it; whomever the cup is in his bag is the recompense for it" 1275.Samia, has one meaning that can Fit in all the Quran, That is the Outcome. However, Recompense can not fit in all the verses (unless in cases when there is a reward, but will never when there is punishment)...Thus, Outcome is the Right word.
Now, if the punishment were to take the thief, then, what are they were going to do with him?
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Samia,
This how I translate 5-38...Do you think I made a mistake in my translation?538
And the Thief (Male)
and the Thief (Female)
Cut
Their Hands
as a Recompense/Outcome (Outcome fits the meaning better)
for what
they earn
as a Harsh Punishment
from
Allah
and Allah
Nobel
WiseI do not see a problem with recompense here. Changing their behaviour by ending the causes of their stealing habit (cut their hands, as we say in cut their tongue make them stop telling false things) is a replacement for the stealing habit. I see it as something to replace anther.
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Samia, has one meaning that can Fit in all the Quran, That is the Outcome. However, Recompense can not fit any all the verses...Thus, Outcome is the Right word.
Now, if the punishment were to take the thief, then, what are they were going to do with him?
How can keeping the brother be the outcome of stealing the cup?
It's a weird outcome, I would say ??? -
Peace belH,
i do not like science fiction, but the guy you are talking about seems to be suffering from kleptomania which is a psychiatric
disorder in which the patient has an uncontrollable urge to steal, so you are right, it will be cruel to kill him/her, instead treatment
will be more acceptable
The treatment of kleptomania with serotonin reuptake inhibitors (like lexapro or effexor)... oki? and probably counseling too )about the ayat on theft even without Samia advice, I still do not agree with your interpretation,
but I have to accept Samia translation because her Arabic is much better than mine...jazaa is closer to reward / recompense,
for outcome in arabic one would say i guess natijah, hasilahPeace Nabster,
Please note that to be the Judge in this community, You MUST use the Quran...It is a Precondition, otherwise, you cannot be the Judge.
Please, you need to quote the Verses that Supports your Judgment (i.e., Killing the thief)
Peace
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theNabster explained what I wanted to, re "outcome".
The Outcome could be a reward, Punishment or Mutual (i.e., Salary is the outcome of working)
Can you translate theseReward/recompense is of the same kind as what is done; but this is meaningless and too simplified
If I teach, the outcome is that students learn; my recompense can be money, payment.
If I teach, and the outcome was negative (students did not learn because they were not serious) I will still get paid as a recompense for my work.
So, same work, same recompense and different outcome.
