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  4. Free-Minds.org is another Sect...like Suni and Shia Sects.

Free-Minds.org is another Sect...like Suni and Shia Sects.

Scheduled Pinned Locked Moved General Issues / Questions
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    belH
    wrote on last edited by
    #238

    for your hypothetical example of desert island and repeat offender, as a judge, i will enforce forced labour under guard or in confinement away from the community with people like him, or even putting to death...
    i am sorry, taking prisoners or mutilating for me is not islamic and is an abomination, and if they have been mentioned in the Quran, is only to show the powerful disbelievers that this is how they should be punished because this is how they punish their weak people and slaves before (but instead have no law for themselves and a law for their slaves)...
    How can you accept that a Deen that encourage people to free slaves, will then encourage mutilation and taking prisoners?
    even killing is last resort, and it has to be with consultation with victims who can accept compensation and forgive...

    Peace Nabster,

    Please note that to be the Judge in this community, You MUST use the Quran...It is a Precondition, otherwise, you cannot be the Judge.

    Please, you need to quote the Verses that Supports your Judgment (i.e., Killing the thief)

    Peace

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      belH
      wrote on last edited by
      #239

      I do not think the "consequence" is a good translation for . It's best translated as "recompense".
      My understanding is
      1274
      (the pronoun in refers to the cup the recompense for the cup)
      They said what's its recompense if you were liars?1274

      They said its recompense, whoever it's found in his bag is its recompense. 1275

      Do you mean this meaning
      to give something to by way of compensation (as for a service rendered or damage incurred) b to pay for
      2 to return in kind requite
      .

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        Samia
        wrote on last edited by
        #240

        Do you mean this meaning
        to give something to by way of compensation (as for a service rendered or damage incurred)

        Almost. I referred to the noun, not the verb

        More precisely
        "Payment given to someone because of slight problems or because of the loss of or damage to their property

        e.g I received ?500 from the local council in recompense for the damage to my garden".

        (Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary)

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          belH
          wrote on last edited by
          #241

          I do not think the "consequence" is a good translation for . It's best translated as "recompense".

          Samia,
          This how I translate 5-38...Do you think I made a mistake in my translation?

          538

          And the Thief (Male)
          and the Thief (Female)
          Cut
          Their Hands
          as an Outcome
          for what
          they earn
          as a Harsh Punishment
          from
          Allah
          and Allah
          Nobel
          Wise

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            belH
            wrote on last edited by
            #242

            Almost. I referred to the noun, not the verb

            More precisely
            "Payment given to someone because of slight problems or because of the loss of or damage to their property

            e.g I received ?500 from the local council in recompense for the damage to my garden".

            (Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary)

            But you are ignoring the Fact that Can be Taking Money, instead of giving, because of a damage that is caused by the person Whom you are taking the money from...Thus, Outcome Fits better because it can be used both way (as a reward or Punishment)

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              Samia
              wrote on last edited by
              #243

              But you are ignoring the Fact that Can be Taking Money, instead of giving, because of a damage that is caused by the person Whom you are taking the money from...Thus, Outcome Fits better because it can be used both way (as a reward or Punishment)

              They are taking the brother...as a recompense for the lost cup
              "The recompense for it; whomever the cup is in his bag is the recompense for it" 1275.

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                belH
                wrote on last edited by
                #244

                They are taking the brother...as a recompense for the lost cup
                "The recompense for it; whomever the cup is in his bag is the recompense for it" 1275.

                Samia, has one meaning that can Fit in all the Quran, That is the Outcome. However, Recompense can not fit in all the verses (unless in cases when there is a reward, but will never when there is punishment)...Thus, Outcome is the Right word.

                Now, if the punishment were to take the thief, then, what are they were going to do with him?

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                  Samia
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #245

                  Samia,
                  This how I translate 5-38...Do you think I made a mistake in my translation?

                  538

                  And the Thief (Male)
                  and the Thief (Female)
                  Cut
                  Their Hands
                  as a Recompense/Outcome (Outcome fits the meaning better)
                  for what
                  they earn
                  as a Harsh Punishment
                  from
                  Allah
                  and Allah
                  Nobel
                  Wise

                  I do not see a problem with recompense here. Changing their behaviour by ending the causes of their stealing habit (cut their hands, as we say in cut their tongue make them stop telling false things) is a replacement for the stealing habit. I see it as something to replace anther.

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                    Samia
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #246

                    Samia, has one meaning that can Fit in all the Quran, That is the Outcome. However, Recompense can not fit any all the verses...Thus, Outcome is the Right word.

                    Now, if the punishment were to take the thief, then, what are they were going to do with him?

                    How can keeping the brother be the outcome of stealing the cup?
                    It's a weird outcome, I would say ???

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                      belH
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #247

                      How can keeping the brother be the outcome of stealing the cup?
                      It's a weird outcome, I would say ???

                      The Outcome could be a reward, Punishment or Mutual (i.e., Salary is the outcome of working)
                      Can you translate these

                      29-5

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                        noble
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #248

                        Peace belH,
                        i do not like science fiction, but the guy you are talking about seems to be suffering from kleptomania which is a psychiatric
                        disorder in which the patient has an uncontrollable urge to steal, so you are right, it will be cruel to kill him/her, instead treatment
                        will be more acceptable
                        The treatment of kleptomania with serotonin reuptake inhibitors (like lexapro or effexor)... oki? and probably counseling too )

                        about the ayat on theft even without Samia advice, I still do not agree with your interpretation,
                        but I have to accept Samia translation because her Arabic is much better than mine...

                        jazaa is closer to reward / recompense,
                        for outcome in arabic one would say i guess natijah, hasilah

                        Peace Nabster,

                        Please note that to be the Judge in this community, You MUST use the Quran...It is a Precondition, otherwise, you cannot be the Judge.

                        Please, you need to quote the Verses that Supports your Judgment (i.e., Killing the thief)

                        Peace

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                          Samia
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #249

                          theNabster explained what I wanted to, re "outcome".

                          The Outcome could be a reward, Punishment or Mutual (i.e., Salary is the outcome of working)
                          Can you translate these

                          Reward/recompense is of the same kind as what is done; but this is meaningless and too simplified
                          If I teach, the outcome is that students learn; my recompense can be money, payment.
                          If I teach, and the outcome was negative (students did not learn because they were not serious) I will still get paid as a recompense for my work.
                          So, same work, same recompense and different outcome.

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                            belH
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #250

                            Peace belH,
                            i do not like science fiction, but the guy you are talking about seems to be suffering from kleptomania which is a psychiatric
                            disorder in which the patient has an uncontrollable urge to steal, so you are right, it will be cruel to kill him/her, instead treatment
                            will be more acceptable
                            The treatment of kleptomania with serotonin reuptake inhibitors (like lexapro or effexor)... oki? and probably counseling too )

                            Peace Nabster,

                            99% of today thieves steal because they want to get richer...Do you think a psychological treatment is the proper punishment? Do you think that is how Medoff (the one who stole 50 Billion dollar) should have been punished?

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                              belH
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #251

                              theNabster explained what I wanted to, re "outcome".

                              Reward/recompense is of the same kind as what is done; but this is meaningless and too simplified
                              If I teach, the outcome is that students learn; my recompense can be money, payment.
                              If I teach, and the outcome was negative (students did not learn because they were not serious) I will still get paid as a recompense for my work.
                              So, same work, same recompense and different outcome.

                              In your example, there are Four (4) Outcomes, two for the student, if he pay attention or not (the outcomes are learn or not), and two for you, if you did a good Job or not (you get paid or not).

                              Can you translate these

                              29-5

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                                noble
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #252

                                Peace belH,
                                I won't be so sure, where did you pick this statistic, from the air, or from an electrical impulse in your brain?
                                besides, after the first few millions, people do not really need more money, it is indeed a disease anyway, but encouraged by
                                a crazy system...
                                you know very well who end up being punished, it is always the poor...
                                this time seems an exception, but in fact if you look deep it was not...
                                Mr Medoff as you call him did what he had to do >D

                                Peace Nabster,

                                99% of today thieves steal because they want to get richer...Do you think a psychological treatment is the proper punishment? Do you think that is how Medoff (the one who stole 50 Billion dollar) should have been punished?

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                                  belH
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #253

                                  Mr Medoff as you call him did what he had to do >D

                                  What is the proper punishment for him if you are the judge whom uses the Quran laws?

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                                    noble
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #254

                                    Not applicable, speculative, he did not operate in a muslim country, there is no muslim state, and he is not a muslim...
                                    the law applicable on him has been applied...

                                    What is the proper punishment for him if you are the judge who uses the Quran laws?

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                                      belH
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #255

                                      Not applicable, speculative, he did not operate in a muslim country, there is no muslim state, and he is not a muslim...
                                      the law applicable on him has been applied...

                                      Peace,
                                      Well, you do not have to answer if you choose to, however, your answer will help us to reach to our Lord's truth.
                                      peace

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                                        Samia
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #256

                                        Belal, now the problem is with the meaning of "outcome"!

                                        The point is, let's focus on the verse in question.
                                        Why would they ask about the outcome of the lost cup? What does it mean?

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                                          noble
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #257

                                          Peace belH

                                          You can answer for me, I trust you will love that ;D
                                          but you have no jurisdiction on him, and neither do I...

                                          Peace,
                                          Well you do not have to answer if you choose to, however, your answer will help us to reach to our Lord's truth.
                                          peace

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