Free-Minds.org is another Sect...like Suni and Shia Sects.
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You totally missed my point... giveup
I do not think so, however, What is your point?
I believe Your point was Is the Punishment of the Thief, in 5-38, to compensate for the Victim's suffering or not...And I told you it is not, rather, it is God's revenge against those who used their God giving Hands to Corrupt the Society instead of Building.
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belH, peace
you do not look like you need help...
just a stubborn religious freak that's all...I was never been an Imam before or I ever wrote an article about religion...I'm only a Hunter who likes to Hunt those who seek to misguide others...I'm good in inflecting harms in their leadership credibility by exposing their Ignorance...and in doing so, their Blood pressure tends to raise and their blood cholesterol level becomes above 700.
eat
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I was never been an Imam before or I ever wrote an article about religion...I'm only a Hunter who likes to Hunt those who seek to misguide others...I'm good in inflecting harms in their leadership credibility by exposing their Ignorance...and in doing so, their Blood pressure tends to raise and their blood cholesterol level becomes above 700.
eat
& & hmm
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I do not think so, however, What is your point?
I believe Your point was Is the Punishment of the Thief, in 5-38, to compensate for the Victim's suffering or not...And I told you it is not, rather, it is God's revenge against those who used their God giving Hands to Corrupt the Society instead of Building.
Of course it is to compensate the victim. Because otherwise what you're suggesting is that the loss is just the victims problem. Who cares? nobody, not even God. Do you honestly believe in that? Society will end up suffering much more by crippling someone capable of working than forcing them to re-pay and then keeping an eye on them. Either they will have to continue their wrong ways to make a living, because who wants to hire and employ an obvious thief. And who is looking for a cripple to work at their workshop? that, or society will have to support them and their families. The idea that harsh punishments have any effect is simpleton and proven wrong by time and history itself, allow me to elaborate China who are in the luxury position not to have to worry about such petty issues as human rights found themselves facing a drug problem. It seemed that a miserable state turns out miserable people with a desire for anything to FUBAR them. So what how did china react? Well they rounded up all the people they could find that used or sold drugs and shot them. This incident is for obvious reasons not very well documented, but what IS well documented is the fact that China still have drug problems. How? what line of punishment or dismembering could be any more harsh or send a clearer signal than how China handled the drug problem? Nothing that I can think of on this side of 1945, but the problem persisted.
This is because the root cause of the problem has not been addressed. Weed is like that as well. You can remove weeds from your lovely little garden all day long, but it will keep coming back until you take the problem by it's root. Literally(!). Cutting off hands is removing a single weed and at the cost of all of society afterwards. Nothing solved, and no signals worth a damn has been send out (case in point china).
A society needs to figure out what makes people steal, and if any of those explanations ends at; They had no food and no job was offered them. Well, then society itself is the root-crook like it or not. YOu can punish open greed, but to punish people all ready on their knees, doing things that hurts their own souls merely to survive is plain cruel, misinformed, and simpleton in all it's unholy glory.
edit There is another side to it as well. The nature of desperation. In some parts of the world people are so desperate for food that they will throw themselves in front of moving vehicles just to get to the hospital where there is food, and perhaps a minor stately insurance. If someone that desperate knew that the state would have to fend for them if it crippled them for what ever reason, I think you would see an actual hand-cutting industry grow out of people who are not actually dangerous criminals, but desperate enough to abuse even such a system for whatever measly gains they can get from it. even if it is at the cost of a hand or two.
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peace Belh
I've been busy with university so this is the first time i'm revisiting this thread since the last time i posted on the thread which was quiet a long time ago.
You seem to possess the belief that once you interpret a topic from the Quran, you have to carry it out without questioning the interpretation or that if it goes against your reason you should still carry it out.
Ok this is important.
I think you believe that God knows everything (as i also do) and from this you conclude that as God knows everything whatever i understand from the Quran (his message) i must carry out regardless of my reason and emotions.
Here are the problems with this approach (imo)
- Quran says use reason and heart and thus to go against it would be contradicting the Quran
- To not give your reason heart and intellect more priority over the understanding of the Quran is the equivalent method that shias, sunnis and other sects use with the difference being that whilst they see hadith and sunnah as laws next to the Quran, you don't but theres still an element of blind following if you don't give those faculties the proper priority.
Think about it. God gave you reason. God sent down the scripture for humanity. You have to use reason to progress. The Quran can misguide if you don't give your reason more priority IMO.
Example
you believe amputating thieves hand whilst this goes against the majorities heart and reason. You carry out this ireversible process. Many years later you discover a new understanding. You can't think ooops! wrong translation.
Overall
Once you gain and understanding from the Quran, you have to weight every element of that understanding with your faculties of reason and heart and you should not carry out that belief unless your reason and heart find it acceptable.
Here's an exmaple of the way i weight
The Quran says swine is haram and it's very clear to me. Whilst this does not appear reasonable to me, the consequences are not irreversible or do not harm others if i follow this understanding thus with my reason i have wieghed that it is better to follow my understanding from the Quran in this case.
This however cannot be the same for amputation as it effects others and the consequences are great and irreversible. Thus this weights more then my understanding therefor i'l wait untill God further guides me.
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I think you believe that God knows everything (as i also do) and from this you conclude that as God knows everything whatever i understand from the Quran (his message) i must carry out regardless of my reason and emotions.
Here are the problems with this approach (imo)
- Quran says use reason and heart and thus to go against it would be contradicting the Quran
- To not give your reason heart and intellect more priority over the understanding of the Quran is the equivalent method that shias, sunnis and other sects use with the difference being that whilst they see hadith and sunnah as laws next to the Quran, you don't but theres still an element of blind following if you don't give those faculties the proper priority.
Think about it. God gave you reason. God sent down the scripture for humanity. You have to use reason to progress. The Quran can misguide if you don't give your reason more priority IMO.
Peace,
My desire, which might dislike certain sever laws of 5-33 & 5-38, is irrelevant when showing the True meanings of God's Messages to the people. Here what would happen to any one who seeks to twist the established meanings of the laws in order to gain the acceptance of his community's cultural and Laws
And they nearly diverted you from what We inspired to you so that you would fabricate something different against Us, and then they would have taken you as a friend!
1773And if We had not made you stand firm, you were about to lean towards them a little bit.
1774Then, We would have made you taste double the retribution in this life and double the retribution in death. And then you would not find for yourself any victor against Us.
1775Our logic about 5-38 punishment is based on the known human rights laws, however, if such laws would change, we would change with it...But does that mean we should change the message of our Lord? Our logic is incomparable to Our Lord's...Our Logic mostly reflects our desire
2371 And if the truth were to follow their desires, then the heavens and the earth and all who are in them would have been corrupted. No, We have come to them with their reminder, but from their reminder they are turning away.
2371We are not here to implement the Laws of our Lord, rather, to show its correct meanings to any one is interested to know about.
Today's punishment for thieves is different from 19 century's punishment...And Today's punishment will be different from 21 and 22 century's...But the Quran Punishment should be there unchanged so others in the future might come to a conclusion to adopt to it.Peace
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Of course it is to compensate the victim.
Peace,
5-38 punishment has nothing to do with compensating the victim, based on its meaning, as I showed before.Because otherwise what you're suggesting is that the loss is just the victims problem. Who cares? nobody, not even God.
If the stolen items were to be found with the thief, then the victim will collect it. Moreover, the Government can compensate the victims if they choose to...Moreover, God is capable to compensate them.
Do you honestly believe in that? Society will end up suffering much more by crippling someone capable of working than forcing them to re-pay and then keeping an eye on them. Either they will have to continue their wrong ways to make a living, because who wants to hire and employ an obvious thief. And who is looking for a cripple to work at their workshop? that, or society will have to support them and their families.
Today, all criminals are crippled due to their Background Check that is computerized and available for everyone to see.
The idea that harsh punishments have any effect is simpleton and proven wrong by time and history itself, allow me to elaborate China who are in the luxury position not to have to worry about such petty issues as human rights found themselves facing a drug problem. It seemed that a miserable state turns out miserable people with a desire for anything to FUBAR them. So what how did china react? Well they rounded up all the people they could find that used or sold drugs and shot them. This incident is for obvious reasons not very well documented, but what IS well documented is the fact that China still have drug problems. How? what line of punishment or dismembering could be any more harsh or send a clearer signal than how China handled the drug problem? Nothing that I can think of on this side of 1945, but the problem persisted.
I agree, However, God always Knows better.
A society needs to figure out what makes people steal, and if any of those explanations ends at; They had no food and no job was offered them. Well, then society itself is the root-crook like it or not. YOu can punish open greed, but to punish people all ready on their knees, doing things that hurts their own souls merely to survive is plain cruel, misinformed, and simpleton in all it's unholy glory.
I agree with you...moreover, I do not believe that the thieves that are mentioned in 5-38 include those who steal due to the society failure in providing assistance to them in order to help them to fulfill their basic needs (e.g., Food, shelter, Health Care, Job). It is the Solemn duty of the Governed Entity to provide help to their members if peace within the society is their main objective.
Peace
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belH salaam,
the day you and all of us realise that Allah does not need a religion from us, and that Islam is not a religion, we will then make some
progress in Nasri Allahi Warusulihi, get it carved in your head that Deen =/= religion.
religion man made.
Deen Allah system governing the Universes...
imam means leader of man, i was not very good at it, but me and my colleagues founded a mosque in a university, which then got taken over by wahabbis (saudis) because they have money and power...
i still think you are an idiot because you are lost in details and cannot see your purpose on earth... may Allah have pity on you and guide your soul... for now, you are playing a dangerous game of being a fitna here...
as for your boast, it will take far more to raise my blood pressure, but i have a health condition which if anything gets me closer to Allah... -
belH salaam,
the day you and all of us realise that Allah does not need a religion from us, and that Islam is not a religion, we will then make some
progress in Nasri Allahi Warusulihi, get it carved in your head that Deen =/= religion.
religion man made.
Deen Allah system governing the Universes...
imam means leader of man, i was not very good at it, but me and my colleagues founded a mosque in a university, which then got taken over by wahabbis (saudis) because they have money and power...
i still think you are an idiot because you are lost in details and cannot see your purpose on earth... may Allah have pity on you and guide your soul... for now, you are playing a dangerous game of being a fitna here...
as for your boast, it will take far more to raise my blood pressure, but i have a health condition which if anything gets me closer to Allah...Peace,
All I did was translating 5-38 "Word by Word"...and here you go, free-minds.org loyal member started attacking me and calling me a Sectarian and Fitna.
Well, the Truth sometimes makes certain people act like this...And that is why I use the "Words of my Lord " as Bullets to Hunt those who hate the Truth...And in doing so, their Blood System tends to get missed up. But those who Love God's Words, the Bullets becomes Food for their Pure Souls.
May God Make us of Those who Love His Truth.
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Peace belH
how can i argue with someone who cannot answer to common sense and reason, Allah given abilities to understand the Quran...
and then you threaten with retribution, hell fire, and punishment when I do not agree with you, this is emotional blackmail, worse than slaughter, alfitnatu ashaddu minalakatli, belH you are a criminal... got it...
or you are here to agitate people to get info for your secret masters maybe?... because you play stupid, then you show a lot of cunning, and sometimes i wonder if you are the same person, and you managed already to trick me into giving you a lot of info about myself, but for a spy, you might not be good enough to fool me...
i am very comfortable in my eeman thank you very much...
and it is not in a public forum that i am going to confront a muftin like you...
who are you, what are you, and what is your real purpose here... i think i answered this above already... -
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Peace
Tempers are running high and everyone should take a few days off, go visit a park or something. Try Yoga! If the Quran was easy to interpret so many people will not be having this many opinions, there would not be many sects and people will have no need to be wound up and start name calling. Now I am not the moderator or anything so you can ask me to shift if you like but when you try to reason with someone and they do not reason then there is a old saying "I pushed, it pushed not. I pulled it pulled not. So I left it be."
Peace
Hope
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students of Quran... bravo
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Allah damns you and your qareen...
( (
Here how you should do it
Whoever debates with you in this after the knowledge has come to you, then say Let us call our children and your children, our women and your women, ourselves and yourselves, then, let us invoke and make the curse of God upon the liars.
361
362 This is the True Punishment, there is no god except God; and God is the Noble, the Wise.
362May God's Curse be Upon me and My Family if I Lied about God's Words
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Here how you should do it
Whoever debates with you in this after the knowledge has come to you, then say Let us call our children and your children, our women and your women, ourselves and yourselves, then, let us invoke and make the curse of God upon the liars.
361
I think that isn't the correct understanding of that verse, IMO the following verse explain the above verse well
http//www.submission.org/efarsi/arabic/Surat6_files/6_135.gif
also your understanding of 361 contradicts with the following
http//www.submission.org/efarsi/arabic/Surat73_files/73_10.gif
http//www.submission.org/efarsi/arabic/Surat15_files/15_85.gifpeace
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Peace
No need for curses brothers. But one should know that impossing ones opinions and translations on others is not going to work. You can only present your findings in the best possible way and leave others to judge and follow the most reasoned. Don't forget you wont be judged collectively, but individually.
Peace
Hope