SALAT NOT PHYSICAL???
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Awesome insight, how about this, standing ,bowing and prostrating
existed before Muhammad. If this practice was pagan or unacceptable
to Allah, why is physical prostration not condemned via Quran?
Instead it is made to appear prohibited and attacked not by Allah but by
humans seeking to prohibit what Allah has not. hmmGod bless
?Or have they set up 'shuraka'a' (partners) who decree for them religious laws never authorized by God. If it were not for the predetermined decision,they would have been judged immediately. Indeed, the transgressors have incurred a painful retribution.? 4221
)
may GOD bless you ^_^
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Peace Kikotsu,
Welcome to the forum.
The verse you quoted is a good reminder and supports the notion of using "Al-Quran" as the ONLY source of law and guidance in islam.
Quran 4221 ?Or have they set up 'shuraka'a' (partners) who decree for them religious laws never authorized by God. If it were not for the predetermined decision,they would have been judged immediately. Indeed, the transgressors have incurred painful retribution."
Quran 3923 God has sent down the best hadith, a book that is consistent, relating/contrasting/repeating. The skins of those who revere their Lord shiver from it, then their skins and their hearts soften up to the remembrance of God. Such is God's guidance; He guides with it whoever He wills. For whomever God misguides, then none can guide him.
In the verse above, the Quran states that it is the best hadith.
Quran 6114 "Shall I seek other than God as a judge when He has sent down to you the Book fully detailed?" Those to whom We have given the Book know it is sent down from your Lord with the truth; so do not be of those who have doubt.
Quran 6115 And the word of your Lord has been completed with truth and justice; there is no changing His words. He is the Hearer, the Knower.
In the two verses above, the quran states that it is fully detailed and complete (with truth and justice). Therefore, the Quran is the only book only book we need for laws and guidance in our deen.
Quran 456 These are the revelations of God, We recite them to you with the truth. So, in which narrative (hadith) after God and His revelations do they believe?
In the verse above, the quran states that it is the only Hadith we should believe in.
By the way, I would like to share an article and a book with you.
You can read the article in this link
http//rationalreality.50webs.com/hadith.htm
You can download the book from this link
http//www.aididsafar.com/saim.html
In my opinion the above-mentioned article and book are very interesting and inspiring. And when I read them (in the past) they made me think/reflect and reconsider some of my beliefs about islam. I learned a lot from reading the above-mentioned article and book. So I deeply recommend the above-mentioned article and book.
I also recommend reading the old articles on the old free-minds page. In my opinion, there are some very good articles there.
You can read the old Free-minds articles in this link
http//www.free-minds.org/Old/articles.htm
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Peace ths,
The book I recommended was not written by Aidid Safar. It was written by Saim Bakar (another author). The ONLY reason why I shared a link to Aidid Safar's website, was because I could not find Saim Bakar's book elsewhere. If I could find Saim Bakar's book elsewhere, then I would not share a link to Aidid Safar's website. Saim Bakar's book used to be on the "article section" of the the free-minds website, but for some reason it is no longer there. Keep in mind that I have not said that I support Aidid Safar's views.
It seems that Saim Bakar's book can only be read/downloaded from Aidid Safar's webpage. But if you find another link to Saim Bakar's book, I suggest sharing it with all of us on this thread. And then, perhaps the moderators can delete the link to Aidid Safar's website. But if you can not find another link to Saim Bakar's book, then I think that the link should not be removed/deleted.
I hope this clarifies your issue/concern.
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Thank you for the clarification Taro
I don't know anything about Saim Bakar, so I may check out the book.
Peace
You are welcome
I deeply recommend Saim Bakar's book.
You might find it inspiring and/or useful.
Peace
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Peace Kikotsu,
Welcome to the forum.
The verse you quoted is a good reminder and supports the notion of using "Al-Quran" as the ONLY source of law and guidance in islam.
Quran 4221 ?Or have they set up 'shuraka'a' (partners) who decree for them religious laws never authorized by God. If it were not for the predetermined decision,they would have been judged immediately. Indeed, the transgressors have incurred painful retribution."
Quran 3923 God has sent down the best hadith, a book that is consistent, relating/contrasting/repeating. The skins of those who revere their Lord shiver from it, then their skins and their hearts soften up to the remembrance of God. Such is God's guidance; He guides with it whoever He wills. For whomever God misguides, then none can guide him.
In the verse above, the Quran states that it is the best hadith.
Quran 6114 "Shall I seek other than God as a judge when He has sent down to you the Book fully detailed?" Those to whom We have given the Book know it is sent down from your Lord with the truth; so do not be of those who have doubt.
Quran 6115 And the word of your Lord has been completed with truth and justice; there is no changing His words. He is the Hearer, the Knower.
In the two verses above, the quran states that it is fully detailed and complete (with truth and justice). Therefore, the Quran is the only book only book we need for laws and guidance in our deen.
Quran 456 These are the revelations of God, We recite them to you with the truth. So, in which narrative (hadith) after God and His revelations do they believe?
In the verse above, the quran states that it is the only Hadith we should believe in.
By the way, I would like to share an article and a book with you.
You can read the article in this link
http//rationalreality.50webs.com/hadith.htm
You can download the book from this link
http//www.aididsafar.com/saim.html
In my opinion the above-mentioned article and book are very interesting and inspiring. And when I read them (in the past) they made me think/reflect and reconsider some of my beliefs about islam. I learned a lot from reading the above-mentioned article and book. So I deeply recommend the above-mentioned article and book.
I also recommend reading the old articles on the old free-minds page. In my opinion, there are some very good articles there.
You can read the old Free-minds articles in this link
http//www.free-minds.org/Old/articles.htm
Thank you very much I'll read them insha'Allah
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if salat isn't physical why were we told to pray in monotone voice, it still kinda bugs me
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Peace kamenriderkiki,
That is a good/intelligent question. And you are right when you say that we are told to do/perform Salat with a monotone voice. Because in verse 17110, the Quran states that we must use a monotone voice when we are doing/performing Salat. But let me ask you a few questions. Can you only use a monotone voice when you are doing/performing physical prayer? Or is there a possibility that you can use a monotone voice when you are doing/performing other physical activities as well? If, for example, you are using your voice when reading the Quran, can you use your voice in a monotone way, when you are doing/performing this activity?
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Peace kamenriderkiki,
There was an error in my last post.
Let me reformulate what I said
That is a good/intelligent question. And you are right when you say that we are told to do/perform Salat with a monotone voice. Because in verse 17110, the Quran states that we must use a monotone voice when we are doing/performing Salat. But let me ask you a few questions. Can you only use a monotone voice when you are doing/performing physical prayer? Or is there a possibility that you can use a monotone voice when you are doing/performing other activities as well? If, for example, you are using your voice when reading the Quran, can you use your voice in a monotone way, when you are doing/performing this activity?
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Peace kamenriderkiki,
There was an error in my last post.
Let me reformulate what I said
That is a good/intelligent question. And you are right when you say that we are told to do/perform Salat with a monotone voice. Because in verse 17110, the Quran states that we must use a monotone voice when we are doing/performing Salat. But let me ask you a few questions. Can you only use a monotone voice when you are doing/performing physical prayer? Or is there a possibility that you can use a monotone voice when you are doing/performing other activities as well? If, for example, you are using your voice when reading the Quran, can you use your voice in a monotone way, when you are doing/performing this activity?
Good point there taro, but what's bugging me is that god told us to recite a surah from the quran if shalat is not physical why god told us we need to recite one of his surah while we're doing a righteous activity
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I did not say that Salat is physical or non-physical/mental (in my post).
You were the one who suggested that Salat is physical in your post
if salat isn't physical why were we told to pray in monotone voice, it still kinda bugs me
And then you wrote
Good point there taro, but what's bugging me is that god told us to recite a surah from the quran if shalat is not physical why god told us we need to recite one of his surah while we're doing a righteous activity
Can you show me which verse that states that we need to recite one of the Quranic surah while we are doing a righteous activity?
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I did not say that Salat is physical or non-physical/mental (in my post).
You were the one who suggested that Salat is physical in your post
if salat isn't physical why were we told to pray in monotone voice, it still kinda bugs me
And then you wrote
Can you show me which verse that states that we need to recite one of the Quranic surah while we are doing a righteous activity?
I did not say that Salat is physical or non-physical/mental (in my post).
okay my mistake, forgot that the quran doesn't specify, got the idea from quran-islam, but if i may ask how do you do your own salat if you never said salat is either physical or non-physical?
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okay my mistake, forgot that the quran doesn't specify, got the idea from quran-islam, but if i may ask how do you do your own salat if you never said salat is either physical or non-physical?
As far as I know, it is not important to know how others do their Salat. In my view, it is not important to know how I do Salat or how many times a day I do Salat . In my view, what is important is how you do Salat and how many times a day you do Salat. In my opinion, it is not important to know what I do or what other believers do. But I think that what is important is what you do and what God wants you to do. From my understanding of the Quran, the aim of true Islam is to follow God alone. And I think one can only follow God alone, by reading/studying/learning the teachings of the Quran. Because the Quran seems to be the only book that contains the words and the message of God. And I believe in all of it. If we follow what other muslims say they do (in regards to Salat), then I think that we will end up following the words of men instead of the words of God.
Quran 1736 And do not uphold what you have no knowledge of; for the hearing, eyesight, and heart - all these you are responsible for.
Quran 3918 The ones who listen to what is being said, and then follow the best of it. These are the ones whom God has guided, and these are the ones who possess intelligence.
Quran 6114 "Shall I seek other than God as a judge when He has sent down to you the Book fully detailed?" Those to whom We have given the Book know it is sent down from your Lord with the truth; so do not be of those who have doubt.
Quran 6115 And the word of your Lord has been completed with truth and justice; there is no changing His words. He is the Hearer, the Knower.
Quran 3127 And if all the trees on the earth were made into pens, and the ocean were supplied by seven more oceans, the words of God would not run out. God is Noble, Wise.
Quran 1745-46 And when you read the Qur'an, We place between you and those who do not believe in the Hereafter an invisible barrier. And we place shields over their hearts, that they should not understand it, and a deafness in their ears. And if you mention your Lord in the Qur'an alone, they run away turning their backs in aversion.
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As far as I know, it is not important to know how others do their Salat.
Please be patient, brother.
I think it could be important IF they're indeed the true believers (e.g. if the person who ask and the person who is asked are the believers).
If we're truly believers, then I think we should not hide/conceal what we believe from the other believers.
Please ponder this... if someone sincerely ask to you to know about what you believe, or about how you perform salat, then whether is it righteous if you refuse to give the answer?
I don't think that all of the members here are always sincere with their questions.
However, what I disagree is this kind of statement "it is not important to know what other believers do"
Among the contents of the Qur'an are the information/explanations about the things that have been done by the prophets, the messengers, and the believers, those are good lessons & good examples for us, thus it is important to know what other believers do.
In any case, I'm sorry if what I wrote is unpleasant to you. I don't intend to disrespect you, brother Hiroshi.
If we follow what other muslims say they do (in regards to Salat), then I think that we will end up following the words of men instead of the words of God.
If I remove that word ("muslims", then I agree with the above statement.
Peace and regards.
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As far as I know, it is not important to know how others do their Salat. In my view, it is not important to know how I do Salat or how many times a day I do Salat . In my view, what is important is how you do Salat and how many times a day you do Salat. In my opinion, it is not important to know what I do or what other believers do. But I think that what is important is what you do and what God wants you to do. From my understanding of the Quran, the aim of true Islam is to follow God alone. And I think one can only follow God alone, by reading/studying/learning the teachings of the Quran. Because the Quran seems to be the only book that contains the words and the message of God. And I believe in all of it. If we follow what other muslims say they do (in regards to Salat), then I think that we will end up following the words of men instead of the words of God.
Quran 1736 And do not uphold what you have no knowledge of; for the hearing, eyesight, and heart - all these you are responsible for.
Quran 3918 The ones who listen to what is being said, and then follow the best of it. These are the ones whom God has guided, and these are the ones who possess intelligence.
Quran 6114 "Shall I seek other than God as a judge when He has sent down to you the Book fully detailed?" Those to whom We have given the Book know it is sent down from your Lord with the truth; so do not be of those who have doubt.
Quran 6115 And the word of your Lord has been completed with truth and justice; there is no changing His words. He is the Hearer, the Knower.
Quran 3127 And if all the trees on the earth were made into pens, and the ocean were supplied by seven more oceans, the words of God would not run out. God is Noble, Wise.
Quran 1745-46 And when you read the Qur'an, We place between you and those who do not believe in the Hereafter an invisible barrier. And we place shields over their hearts, that they should not understand it, and a deafness in their ears. And if you mention your Lord in the Qur'an alone, they run away turning their backs in aversion.
it is not important to know how others do their Salat. In my view, it is not important to know how I do Salat or how many times a day I do Salat
in your post about the meaning of salat
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606711.0Sujud not physical prostrarion,
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606706.msg354418#msg354418You stated that salat in your post does not necessarily mean ritual prayer or sujud doesn't really mean physical prostration because of verse 2218 states that the sun and moon prostrates to god
Then you said
I did not say that Salat is physical or non-physical/mental (in my post)
But taro would you kindly share to us on how you do your salat, won't hurt sharing a little info would it? Just an example, don't be shy i don't know your true identity or where you live
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Please be patient, brother.
I think it could be important IF they're indeed the true believers (e.g. if the person who ask and the person who is asked are the believers).
If we're truly believers, then I think we should not hide/conceal what we believe from the other believers.
Please ponder this... if someone sincerely ask to you to know about what you believe, or about how you perform salat, then whether is it righteous if you refuse to give the answer?
I don't think that all of the members here are always sincere with their questions.
However, what I disagree is this kind of statement "it is not important to know what other believers do"
Among the contents of the Qur'an are the information/explanations about the things that have been done by the prophets, the messengers, and the believers, those are good lessons & good examples for us, thus it is important to know what other believers do.
In any case, I'm sorry if what I wrote is unpleasant to you. I don't intend to disrespect you, brother Hiroshi.
If I remove that word ("muslims", then I agree with the above statement.
Peace and regards.
Peace sister.
Thank you for your advice. I agree with most of your views (in your post).
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Peace kamenriderkiki, all,
in your post about the meaning of salat
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606711.0Sujud not physical prostrarion,
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606706.msg354418#msg354418You stated that salat in your post does not necessarily mean ritual prayer or sujud doesn't really mean physical prostration because of verse 2218 states that the sun and moon prostrates to god
I have never stated that Salat does not necessarily mean ritual prayer. I have not used the word "necessarily" in regards to Salat.
I think that the word Salat means different things according to the different contexts in different verses of the Quran. That being said, I also think that the word Salat also means one thing (since the root of this word has a basic meaning).
My view about Sujud has changed. And I no longer take a stance (for or against) in regards to Sujud. I am open to different interpretations of the word Sujud. Please read this post
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607327.msg376442#msg376442
But taro would you kindly share to us on how you do your salat, won't hurt sharing a little info would it? Just an example, don't be shy i don't know your true identity or where you live
I will write a post about salat (in a new thread in this forum) in due time. In the post I will share my thoughts on salat.
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Peace Taro Hiroshi,
If we follow what other muslims say they do (in regards to Salat), then I think that we will end up following the words of men instead of the words of God.
As you said, we have to go by Quran to find out what salat is. You already know about 4914 since you have quoted it before and you know the difference between "muslim" and "mumin". As per Quran, establishing salat is for "mumineen" (4103) not for "muslimeen".
In my understanding, the salat to be established by mumineen is a "communion" or "intimate communication" between mumineen and allah. This meaning fits all occurrences of salat in Quran. How else can one get orders about what actions to perform in life during salat
1187 They said "O Shu'ayb, does your salat ORDER you that we leave what our fathers served, or that we do not do with our money as we please? It seems only you are the compassionate, the wise!"
It definitely has physical components as well as mental components. I still haven't been able to figure out all details completely but some things I know for sure about salat for mumineen as per Quran
- It is a "communion" or "intimate communication" between mumineen and allah.
- It is compulsory only for "mumineen".
- It is established twice a day, at dawn and dusk.
- One cannot be in a state of intoxication during establishing salat.
- There is a physical washing before it as specified in Quran.
- It involves recitation with understanding of verses of Quran in a moderate tone.
- It involves qiyaam and sujud. I am not sure yet if the qiyaam and sujud are only mental, or both physical and mental (maintaining/establishing or that plus physically standing, and obedience/acknowledgment/humility or that plus a physical prostration).
- However, If the sujud is physical it has to be 100% upon the chin and not the forehead (no sectarians perform sujud on chin as Quran mentions).
- I couldn't find any ruku or physical bowing as part of salat in Quran.
- Salat ends as soon as sujud is performed (4102), so there is only 1 sujud.
- Certain verse from Quran (17111) is COMPULSORY to be recited in salat (no sectarians recite that verse in their salat).
- Salat also includes prayer to allah and magnifying, praising and glorifying allah.
- There is no particular physical direction one has to face during salat.
- No humans can be mentioned or praised during salat.
I might have missed a few things but that is just a summary.
Peace
