The "Difference between Messengers/Prophets" .
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salam idolfree,
yet again, since we have such little common ground i am sure our discussion will prove fruitless.
Yes, it is obvious that all we need is the God, so why do you say all we need is a book called "quran"? That is assigning partners to the God.
We get to God, through the guidance of the Quran. This is a basic concept, and if you dont believe it, then dont believe it. As far as the revelations BEFORE the Quran.. sure I believe them... but unfortunately they have been massively corrupted and do not exist in a reliable form... any sort of guidance we take from them has to go through the check and balance of the Quran first.
Really it seems ridiculous to me that you make all sorts of complaints about hadith whereas hardly any other "religious" book can even uphold that standard. In fact, I would say there is no religious book in the entire world better preserved than hadith, except the Quran.
YOu are scared by the false teachings we all have been taught. In time, if you continue to be at peace, you will see the truth about prophecy. We have been given the wrong idea about it and it become very clear when you do some study of other cultures.
No but I am scared by wackos who claim to be prophets or messengers. And yes, they are indeed wackos if they claim to be "divinely" ordained messengers. Nation of Islam, Ahmedi, etc etc etc..
The God tells us clearly that there are ranks, leves(maqam), so why are you against that?
The ranks refer to rewards in the afterlife.
Look, the Prophet himself said I am a man like you except that I receive revelation.... so if someone DOESNT EVEN receive revelation, how can you even think that they are on another level?? Shame on them for fooling themselves, and double shame on you for being fooled! Every Muslim is on a level-playing field, there are no "mystics" or "messengers" etc etc... its just us, and we need to take responsibility, and the only way to do that is through the message of the Quran.
wassalam
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Peace Kyle,
One can hide a part of a scripture
- And they did not appreciate God as He deserves to be appreciated, for they said ?God has never sent down anything to any human being.? Say ?Who then has sent down the ScriptureBook/alkitab which Moses had come with, a light and a guidance for the people? You treat it just as paper, you show some of it and conceal much, and you were taught what neither you nor your fathers knew.? Say ?God has.? Then leave them playing in their folly.
The God did not send any book out of the sky, the God guides through the laws of the universe. Those who learn to read the book(universe) are those who "talk to the God" (Prophets). There is MUCH being hidden in this world, and its not pages of a book.
The universe is an open book, nor you neither me we can hide any thing from it.
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Surely those who conceal what We have sent down to them which was clear, and the guidance, after God Had made it clear in the Scripture; these will be cursed by God and be cursed by those who curse.
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Surely, those who conceal what God has sent down of the Scripture, and they purchase with it a cheap price; they will not eat in their stomachs except the Fire, and God will not speak to them on the Day of Resurrection, nor will He purify them, and they will have a painful retribution.
You state that The God did not send any book out of the sky, focus only on what is said in 691, don't substitute the God's words.
?Who then has sent down the ScriptureBook/alkitab which Moses had come with, a light and a guidance for the people?
The God doesn't speak only about One Book/kitab (singular form) but also the books/kutub (plural form of kitab) which are sent upon His messengers
2285 The Messenger has full Conviction in what is revealed unto him from his Lord and so do the believers. Each one has full conviction in Allah, His angels, His Scriptures/Books/kutubihi and His Messengers. They say, ?We make no distinction between any of His Messengers? (since they were one in Purpose). And they say, ?We hear and we obey, so grant us the protection of forgiveness, our Lord. We journey through life on Your Way.?
4136 O You who have chosen to be graced with belief! (and call yourselves Muslims)! Believe in Allah and His Messenger, and the Book/alkitab He has revealed to His Messenger, and ( the fact that He revealed) the Scripture/alkitab before. (Belief to the point of Conviction can only be attained through reason and not as a birth right (1210). One who denies Allah, and His Angels, and His Books/kutubihi, and His Messengers, and the Last Day, has gone far astray.
Scientists and prophets are not at the same level, the scientific discoveries is the fruit of several years of research. The God guides every one who seeks to improve his knowledge about the creation.
Was it not research when Abraham looked to the sky and saw the stars , moon, and sun?
You see only what you want to see )
How can the prophet describe fro example the stages of the embryogenesis there is 1400 years, did he have a laboratory, scanner,microscope? Did he practice surgery?
rollIt is the universe(al kitaab) which is to be read, not a physical book called "quran".
Both lol
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Peace be upon you Shuiab,
yet again, since we have such little common ground i am sure our discussion will prove fruitless.
YOu havent understood the first thing about controlling your thoughts, which is a MAJOR theme of this reading(quran). If you THINK you cant, you wont.
I have the greatest confidence that we can arrive at the correct understanding, in time.
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Yes, it is obvious that all we need is the God, so why do you say all we need is a book called "quran"? That is assigning partners to the God.We get to God, through the guidance of the Quran. This is a basic concept, and if you dont believe it, then dont believe it.
So how do those who call themselves christians and jews, who trust in the God, live righteously, and trust in the ending time, how do they get thire reward? They did not go through the Quran, yet they "got to God". How so?
As far as the revelations BEFORE the Quran.. sure I believe them... but unfortunately they have been massively corrupted and do not exist in a reliable form... any sort of guidance we take from them has to go through the check and balance of the Quran first.
The word "quran" only means reading, it is the UNIVERSE that we are to read. People before us were reading the SAME universe. That which was written about the universe has been corrupted, but the Universe remains the same. This is how we can trust in what was descended upon us and those before us. Stop thinking of the physical book called "quran", this is a misuse of the word.
Really it seems ridiculous to me that you make all sorts of complaints about hadith whereas hardly any other "religious" book can even uphold that standard. In fact, I would say there is no religious book in the entire world better preserved than hadith, except the Quran.
Please read the above statement again, I am not concerned with a particular book, only truthful statements vs. non truthful statements.
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YOu are scared by the false teachings we all have been taught. In time, if you continue to be at peace, you will see the truth about prophecy. We have been given the wrong idea about it and it become very clear when you do some study of other cultures.No but I am scared by wackos who claim to be prophets or messengers. And yes, they are indeed wackos if they claim to be "divinely" ordained messengers. Nation of Islam, Ahmedi, etc etc etc..
Well, when you learn the truth about "prophets" and "messengers" you will no longer be SCARED. THEN you will know you are on the right path because those on the right path are not scared of anything except disobeying the God. They are certainly not scared of any humans, no matter what they claim.
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The God tells us clearly that there are ranks, levesmaqam, so why are you against that?The ranks refer to rewards in the afterlife.
Thats incorrect.
(6132) And for each steps/stages/degrees from what they made/did, and your Lord is not with ignoring/neglecting about what they make/do .
There are MANY examples as to why your statement is wrong. The fact that you once had a different belief and found you way here is proof of DEGREES.
Look, the Prophet himself said I am a man like you except that I receive revelation
Where di he say that? I didn't see any exceptions. Please show that verse. EVERYONE recieves inspiration according to thier striving, JUST LIKE THEM.
.... so if someone DOESNT EVEN receive revelation, how can you even think that they are on another level?? Shame on them for fooling themselves, and double shame on you for being fooled! Every Muslim is on a level-playing field, there are no "mystics" or "messengers" etc etc... its just us, and we need to take responsibility, and the only way to do that is through the message of the Quran.
Yes, all humans are on a level playing field because we ALL have the ability to strive and recieve inspiration from the God within (He blew the ruh inside all of us). Or are you saying that the Prophets you idolize are not "muslim"? (I'm sure you did not realize the contradiction you wrote).
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Peace be upon you Marie,
The universe is an open book, nor you neither me we can hide any thing from it.
Yes it is an open book of observable LAWS, but there are things being hidden from this open book. People are PURPOSELY NOT being educated so that this "HIDING" can continue on. True, the answers are right there in the open, but the blind cannot see. Not the blindness of the eyes, but of the hearts.
Lets take for example homosexuality, there are many promoting it even though they are not homosexual themselves. They are HIDING the truth about it to those who cannot see for themselves. The examples are too numerous to list.
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2159. Surely those who conceal what We have sent down to them which was clear, and the guidance, after God Had made it clear in the Scripture; these will be cursed by God and be cursed by those who curse.The word in this verse is "book", not scripture. By using scripture, you are hiding the clarity that the God is refering to the Universe(Al kitaab). So we read;
(2159) SURELY those who hide/conceal what The God descended from the clarity and the guidance from after We clarified it to the people in The Book , those, The God curses them them, and the cursors curse them.
The God clarifies things through his universe, the laws within the universe. Clarity and guidance comes from reading and reflecting on the laws of the universe, but others come and hide the clarity and guidance. Like feeding people instead of teaching them the laws of agriculture, to keep them enslaved.
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2174. Surely, those who conceal what God has sent down of the Scripture, and they purchase with it a cheap price; they will not eat in their stomachs except the Fire, and God will not speak to them on the Day of Resurrection, nor will He purify them, and they will have a painful retribution.Again, its book, not scripture.
You state that The God did not send any book out of the sky, focus only on what is said in 691, don't substitute the God's words.
Who then has sent down the ScriptureBook/alkitab which Moses had come with, a light and a guidance for the people?
Yes, Musa came with it (the UNDERSTANDING of the universe), not some "best seller" D Later, what Musa and all prophets intuit are writen down in order to remember it and spread the message.
The God doesn't speak only about One Book/kitab (singular form) but also the books/kutub (plural form of kitab) which are sent upon His messengers
2285 The Messenger has full Conviction in what is revealed unto him from his Lord and so do the believers. Each one has full conviction in Allah, His angels, His Scriptures/Books/kutubihi and His Messengers. They say, We make no distinction between any of His Messengers (since they were one in Purpose). And they say, We hear and we obey, so grant us the protection of forgiveness, our Lord. We journey through life on Your Way.
4136 O You who have chosen to be graced with belief! (and call yourselves Muslims)! Believe in Allah and His Messenger, and the Book/alkitab He has revealed to His Messenger, and ( the fact that He revealed) the Scripture/alkitab before. (Belief to the point of Conviction can only be attained through reason and not as a birth right (1210). One who denies Allah, and His Angels, and His Books/kutubihi, and His Messengers, and the Last Day, has gone far astray.
Humans who achive a high level intuit the truth about the created Universe(al kitaab) from within. Afterward, they write it down. SO yes, one can adress it in terms of plural (books) in that respect, but the wisdom comes from the UNIFYING of the message. Therefore while there were and ARE many messengers, we are told NOT TO DIFFERENTIATE. That is why we see both the plural and singular usage of the word "kitaab/book". The God seperates the messengers in order for us to learn the individual lessons and COMBINE them all within our being, not to leave them seperate (differentiating). In the last verse you gave above, notice that the PLURAL is associated with the deniers. The verse befpre that starts of in plural but then clarifies that these ALL SHALL BE ONE (no differentation).
The KEY is in thinking WHOLISTICALLY! D
There were not a whole bunch of physical books sent down from the sky with different names (quran, torah, injeel, psalms) NO! D The God descends TURTH about the Universe, and that truth is written down in different pages. But we must combine ALL TRUTH, no matter how old it is, into the ONE TRUTH which is consistent with the universe(al kitaab) always. There is NO CHANGE in the God's way. D
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Scientists and prophets are not at the same level, the scientific discoveries is the fruit of several years of research. The God guides every one who seeks to improve his knowledge about the creation.Was it not research when Abraham looked to the sky and saw the stars , moon, and sun?
Marie
You see only what you want to seeOkay, but I am asking you what YOU see D What was Abraham doing?
How can the prophet describe fro example the stages of the embryogenesis there is 1400 years, did he have a laboratory, scanner,microscope? Did he practice surgery?
The same way that the people of ancient Kemet made all of thier "discoveries" long before that. They knew the earth was round, they understood the atom (comes from "atem"). They understood the 9 step process of creation which is why thier "tree of life" has nine metaphysical faculties leading to the 10th faculty of this material illusion. (9 months)
YOu see, what the ancients knew and what this reading is telling us is that the same things happen on different levels. I recommend a book that will help you understand all this. Contact me if you are interested to study it. This is yet another thing that is HIDDEN in the book, the fact that the ancients kew MANY of the things that western scientists are just now discovering, not just the so called "muslim" world, but the Africans who started the first civilization as well and many other cultures. It is a trick to make people think that only "modern" things are advanced, and by default, the older civilizations were not advanced. Its a white supremecy strategy.
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Peace Kyle,
We have not the same methodology to understand both this Reading and the creation.
I consider this Reading as a guide like the whole creation and I use the evidence of this Reading to prove a point and not to use a personnal point to fit it to the Reading.Quote
How can the prophet describe fro example the stages of the embryogenesis there is 1400 years, did he have a laboratory, scanner,microscope? Did he practice surgery?The same way that the people of ancient Kemet made all of thier "discoveries" long before that.
I invite you to read the verse where the God describes the embryogenesis, this is not the prophet who speaks about his discovery but this is the God's word "we create....".
There is NO CHANGE in the God's way
Right, but We don't understand it in the same way
Just to remind you our discussion about Dolly and Kaguya
Jesus, Virgin Births, Miracles, Symbolisms, cont...
I consider Dolly and Kagua as a conrete example
Before them, ewes and mice result from egg + sperm
Dolly and kaguya do not result from sperm + eggIn them a good lesson for those who choose to consider them.
the God gave them the life according His will and He doesn't break His law.We cannot consider a part of science and reject some of it.
The question is are you ready to consider these examples to improve your knowlege of the God's law?
Peace
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Peace be upon you Marie,
We have not the same methodology to understand both this Reading and the creation.
SO that is why we debate(hajja) without arguing(jidala), so we can come to common ground of truth.
I consider this Reading as a guide like the whole creation and I use the evidence of this Reading to prove a point and not to use a personnal point to fit it to the Reading.
What personal point? Yes, this reading(quran) is a light to help us read the Ultimate reading, The BOOK(al kitaab, the universe, our lives).
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How can the prophet describe fro example the stages of the embryogenesis there is 1400 years, did he have a laboratory, scanner,microscope? Did he practice surgery?The same way that the people of ancient Kemet made all of thier "discoveries" long before that.
I invite you to read the verse where the God describes the embryogenesis, this is not the prophet who speaks about his discovery but this is the God's word "we create....".
Yes , WE! We means that ALL is ONE. We are the manifestation of the God, parts of the Whole. There is nothing but the God.
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There is NO CHANGE in the God's wayRight, but We don't understand it in the same way
Just to remind you our discussion about Dolly and Kaguya
Jesus, Virgin Births, Miracles, Symbolisms, cont...
I consider Dolly and Kagua as a conrete example
Before them, ewes and mice result from egg + sperm
Dolly and kaguya do not result from sperm + eggAll things result from the male principle and female principle coming together, this is what is meant by the symbol of teh Kemetic "Ankh". It is the joining of the male and female. Sperm is an aspect of the male and egg of the female. The scientists have only done the same thing at a more minute level, before the level of sperm and egg, but still using the male and female UNION to create life, there is no life without the union of male and female.
In them a good lesson for those who choose to consider them.
the God gave them the life according His will and He doesn't break His law.We cannot consider a part of science and reject some of it.
The question is are you ready to consider these examples to improve your knowlege of the God's law?
I hope I have proven so by my statement that YES, they did not use the sperm and egg, but still male and female union, on a smaller molecular level. The fact remains that unless male and female principles/forces/faculties unite, there is no life.
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Peace Saladin
Nice work on compiling the verses
But how your idea on prophets are types of messengers fits 381...........
381 clearly states that the convenant is only made with all prophets, but there will be a messenger who is not in the convenant that will confirm/authenticate what is with the prophets.So are you suggesting that the messenger in 381 is a non-human messenger?
Peace
peace loli.
the messenger who would confirm the previous scriptures could b any messenger . it could also be a messenger prophet . it could also be the koran that confirms the previous scriptures .
btw i believe that the messenger in 381 was prophet muhammed .
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salam idolfree,
Well like I said before, with such little common ground, how can a discussion be fruitful? You have to agree on the simple things before going on to the complex.. and here we do NOT agree on the simple things.
You persistently push the idea of mixing the pure Quran with all the other impure corruptions out there (books which even the followers admit are corrupted). This is inexcusable in my opinion.
Also the persistent idea that you have that everyone can receive wahi which is an absolutely unproven statement without any support whatsoever.
But we've gone in circles before haven't we? Like I've said in the past, someone who can turn the meaning of a basic word like kitaab into something esoteric like universe using only word games as proofs... then how can anyone expect a fruitful result?
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Peace Kyle,
they did not use the sperm and egg, but still male and female union, on a smaller molecular level. The fact remains that unless male and female principles/forces/faculties unite, there is no life.
About Dolly and Kaguya, there is no male and female union at any level.
You see only your own logic despite it is not supported by scientific arguments.To you is your understanding , and to me is mine )
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Peace be upon you Shuiab,
Well like I said before, with such little common ground, how can a discussion be fruitful? You have to agree on the simple things before going on to the complex.. and here we do NOT agree on the simple things.
You persistently push the idea of mixing the pure Quran with all the other impure corruptions out there (books which even the followers admit are corrupted). This is inexcusable in my opinion.
Mixing? It sounds like you have a partner with the God. I follow the God and his messenger, which means I follow TRUTH, no matter what piece of paper it is written on. When you say "mixing" are you trying to imply that I am telling people tgo follow the so called Bible or things like that? If so, then you need to go back and read my position again because you have not understood.
Also the persistent idea that you have that everyone can receive wahi which is an absolutely unproven statement without any support whatsoever.
If you recive no INSPIRATION (wahi) then how do you CHANGE?
But we've gone in circles before haven't we? Like I've said in the past, someone who can turn the meaning of a basic word like kitaab into something esoteric like universe using only word games as proofs... then how can anyone expect a fruitful result?
The God states that the universe will be rolled up like a scroll(book). When you realize that ALL THINGS are sounds (Be and it becomes), and that all things in creation are AYAATS(signs), then you will see what I am saying. Until then "good luck" in your journey and Peace to you.
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Peace be upon you Marie,
There is NO LIFE without the male and female principle. Humans have within them what is referred to as the LIFE FORCE. Some call it bio kenetic energy or all kinds of names. Chinese call it "chi", Hindus "kundalini", christians call it "holy spirit" (but don't really know what it means), this reading calls it "ruh ul qudus", etc.
It is the ENERGY that moves ALL THINGS, that POWERS all things. NOthing happens without it.
Sperm is the transfer of this ENERGY.
In the case of Dolly, instead of sperm being the MALE PRINCIPLE, the scientist used ANOTHER SOURCE OF ENERGY. Yes, not from a species with the male GENDER, but still from the MALE PRINCIPLE.
Here is a clear color diagram of the process
http//science.howstuffworks.com/cloning3.htm
Sorry dear sister, but there is no getting around the God's Law.
Energy(M)+ Matter(F) = Life
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salams all,
i see the main problem here is that you have to realize that there is a linguistic context meaning and then a quranic context meaning. The linguistic meaning is a literal meaning of a word, and the Quranic meaning (of course based on the linguistic meaning) is the context and connection with which that word has been used throughout the Quran.
To take the word wahi, or rasool, or nabi, purely OUTSIDE the context of the Quran, take its pure linguistic meaning and then form all sorts of ideas based on that, will lead to grave misunderstandings.
yes in the general linguistic sense wahi can mean ANY inspiration.. but I think you all know full well that I am referring SPECIFICALLY to the direct conscious communication of knowledge that Allah can give to people of his choosing, such as the words contained in the Quran. THAT is what i meant when i said wahi.
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Peace all,
Some receive the inspiration from the God and some receive it from the human and Jinn devils (6 112, 121)
- We have permitted the enemies of every prophet, human and Jinn devils, to inspire (yoohee) in each other with fancy words in order to deceive. Had your Lord willed, they would not have done it. You shall disregard them and their fabrications.
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Peace be upon you all,
Yes, there are two sources of attraction that send inspiration, therefore we must always weigh evidence properly, or else "shayteen" will inspire us that sticks turn to snakes and that the God is only interested in communicating to selected exclusive individuals in the past, and only in the Middle East. D
If we are not careful, we can be inspired that we are not capable of reaching a level where we can follow the EXAMPLES of the prophets.
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Peace,
"shayteen" has any strength on us because the Reading explains itself. If we follow the explanation given inside the Reading, we cannot misunderstood the God's words.
Do we need to explain the concept of salat, sawm, zakat, sujood, rukooAA...?
The response is No and this is valid for each word of the Reading.Let us the God explains His words through His words D