Do you believe hijab is mandatory?
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Supernaut's the man.
I want to point out that in traditional Islam, rape would, apparently, partially (or completely depending on how stupid you are) be the woman's fault simply if she didn't wear the hijab. Such is the misleading by Satan and such will be in the fire. "Nuff said.
Anyway, I originally came here to point out the stupid logic of the hijab in the first place. Sunni islam claims that the hijab is a must when the female has attained puberty. Anyone notice a fallacy here? What difference does it make when the female reaches puberty? The hair was there the whole time, and the boys/men have been looking at the hair for many years of that girl's life. It's not like reaching puberty makes the hair talk to men enticing them to screw the female the hair is on. Seriously.
Someone please answer the following question. When the Quran says lower the gaze...well...I'm pretty sure it means not to look at them (the women), not meaning abstain from looking at that which the woman is commanded to cover (i.e. breasts, private part and unnecessary body parts). So, I guess I'm not allowed to stare at a girl's face...-[ (.
The second to last thing I'm going to show here are two people's interpretation of what's "necessary" in the verse regarding the dress code for women. One is Submission.org's and the other is Islam Q&A's (honestly, I think these sites are two different religions. One is the most hardcore Quran-only site I've seen (that being a good thing, of course) and the other is the most hardcore Sunni Islam site on the net (guided partly or mostly by Satan).
The verse is 2431, telling the women to lower their gaze and guard their private parts, to cover their breasts and show only that which is necessary.
Sub's interpretation of necessary That which you wash/wipe during ablution (anyone agree with this one, because this one makes PERFECT sense to me.)
QA's Everything but the eyes, so the woman can see. Okay, so it's not ok for her to smell (with the nose) or hear well (with the ears) or touch things (with her hands). Thanks, @*$*ol3, but I'll use the brain I was gifted with.
Which interpretation would you take?
The very last thing I want to ask is the part mentioning what a woman can show to her husband, her father, the father of her husband etc.
...what are the conditions of this? I mean, I think she can be naked in front of her husband, but what about her father/husband's father/etc.? Can she be naked in front of them too?
Edit The way the second poll option was written made me laugh. p
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Peace Meteora,
What really ticks me off is when people GROSSLY mistranslate the god's words and then base their entire reasoning and understanding on the GROSS mistranslation, thereby misguiding themselves and others.
The second to last thing I'm going to show here are two people's interpretation of what's "necessary" in the verse regarding the dress code for women. One is Submission.org's and the other is Islam Q&A's (honestly, I think these sites are two different religions. One is the most hardcore Quran-only site I've seen (that being a good thing, of course) and the other is the most hardcore Sunni Islam site on the net (guided partly or mostly by Satan).
The verse is 2431, telling the women to lower their gaze and guard their private parts, to cover their breasts and show only that which is necessary.
Sub's interpretation of necessary That which you wash/wipe during ablution (anyone agree with this one, because this one makes PERFECT sense to me.)
QA's Everything but the eyes, so the woman can see. Okay, so it's not ok for her to smell (with the nose) or hear well (with the ears) or touch things (with her hands). Thanks, @*$*ol3, but I'll use the brain I was gifted with.
Which interpretation would you take?
WHERE DOES IT SAY "NECESSARY"?
Courtesy of submission.org, another person misguided.
The Arabic words are "ma zahara minha" which mean "what is APPARENT".
THIS COMPLETELY CHANGES THE UNDERSTANDING.
What is apparent in a woman's body that comes under "zeenat"/beauty and cannot be hidden because it is apparent?
IN MY UNDERSTANDING, that could be the outline/silhouette of large breasts, and no matter how she tries to cover them with "khimaar" the outline/silhouette is still apparent. It could also include the outline/silhouette of large hips/buttock, which is still apparent no matter how she tries to cover them with a "jilbaab"/loose dress, etc. etc. It could also include adornments/jewelry which are worn on hands, face, feet etc.
There is no commandment to cover the face, head, hands and feet so those parts can thus be exposed not because they fall under "ma zahara minha" but because there is no commandment to cover them.
The very last thing I want to ask is the part mentioning what a woman can show to her husband, her father, the father of her husband etc.
...what are the conditions of this? I mean, I think she can be naked in front of her husband, but what about her father/husband's father/etc.? Can she be naked in front of them too?
The "furooj"/private parts do not come under "zeenat" and are to be covered in front of everyone except the husband.
The "zeenat" that falls under "ma zahara minha" can be revealed to anyone.
All other "zeenat" that does not fall under "ma zahara minha" can be revealed to the mentioned categories. What is this "zeenat other than ma zahara minha"?
I think this will include arms, legs, belly etc. I think it will also include her breasts. It cannot be private parts because they are to be covered in front of everyone except the husband as per 235-6.
Another point is that just because a woman is allowed to reveal those parts to the mentioned categories does not mean she has to reveal them to the mentioned categories, but it is left up to her. For example, if she has a baby which is of breast feeding age, and it is time to breast feed her baby, she can do that in front of the above mentioned categories IF SHE WANTS TO. It is her choice.
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The Arabic words are "ma zahara minha" which mean "what is APPARENT".
Agree with this, it makes sense.
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I know zero Arabic, but I think "Lower your gaze" means "Don't ogle". It's very rude to stare at someone because you make them feel really uncomfortable. Also, giving someone "the look" can easily lead to sex.
I checked the meanings of furuj and zeenah and I think they refer to privates and underwear respectively. The god commands us to hide our furuj from anyone we're not married to and that women shouldn't let unrelated men see more zeenah than is normally apparent. A woman can let her husband, her father, her father-in-law and other men she can't marry see the kind of zeenah that isn't normally apparent so I guess zeenah refers to panties. A guy will get aroused if he sees an unrelated girl in her panties, but a woman's father or brother will only be a bit amused if they see her in her panties.
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I know zero Arabic, but I think "Lower your gaze" means "Don't ogle". It's very rude to stare at someone because you make them feel really uncomfortable. Also, giving someone "the look" can easily lead to sex.
I checked the meanings of furuj and zeenah and I think they refer to privates and underwear respectively. The god commands us to hide our furuj from anyone we're not married to and that women shouldn't let unrelated men see more zeenah than is normally apparent. A woman can let her husband, her father, her father-in-law and other men she can't marry see the kind of zeenah that isn't normally apparent so I guess zeenah refers to panties. A guy will get aroused if he sees an unrelated girl in her panties, but a woman's father or brother will only be a bit amused if they see her in her panties.
No. I think that is where hijabites mislead people putting into the Qur'an what is not there and taking out of the Qur'an what is there.
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31. And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and to be mindful of their chastity, and not to display their charms beyond what may be apparent thereof; (37) hence, let them draw their head-coverings over their bosoms. (3 And let them not display their charms to any but their husbands, or their fathers, or their husbands fathers, or their sons, or their husbands Sons, or their brothers, or their brothers sons, or their sisters sons, or their womenfolk, or those whom they rightfully possess, or such male attendants as are beyond all sexual desire, (39) or children that are as yet unaware of womens nakedness; and let them not swing their legs so as to draw attention to their hidden charms (40) And , O you believers - all of you - turn unto God in repentance, so that you might attain to a happy state! (41) "Please notice that it is not a matter of men or women, since only the women of their (of the women) family are included among those to whom they can display their adornments or charms (or whatever word is used to translate the zeenah) to the exlusion of any other women.
Also I can see that many readers will go on and on about homosexuality, but funnily it never occurs to them that the Qur'an might hold some instruction so as to keep men from tempting other men by displaying their their charms, but can only see ONE reason for women displaying or not displaying whatever. Same goes for men of the family, aren't they tempted?
I think that te Qur'an is non-guilty of the promotion of the contrived sexual obsesion with women's clothes that is adscribed to islam and the Qur'an.
Not criticising you, Supernaut. I do like your posts, they always raise worthwhile questions.
Salaam
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^I don't think naut said anything about women revealing their beauty to other women.
Courtesy of submission.org, another person misguided.
Someone can interpret "apparent" as well for as long as they want. For example if you're wearing the thinnest tightest pants you've put on in your life, what's the point of wearing the pants? Someone can say it's like you bleached your skin a different color.
While apparent is a much more accurate translation, necessary is not a bad way to put it. I see nothing wrong in thinking that which is cleansed during ablution can be shown. I however see a problem with a female in a catwoman costume. They can both be interpreted by each individual.
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peace,
I checked the meanings of furuj and zeenah and I think they refer to privates and underwear respectively.
I disagree, unless you mean your interpretation/understanding is the above. The word "zeenah" does not mean "underwear" or even refers to it.
total beauty = apparent beauty + hidden beauty
apparent beauty ---> can be revealed in public
total beauty can be revealed to those specifically mentioned in the context (how much of the "total beauty" to reveal is left entirely up to the individual)
It brackets what can be considered hidden beauty, by striking of feet / walk which is revealing, as it states this can reveal beauty that is hidden. Thus, by inference, also gives an indication of apparent beauty.
Bottom line is if AQ did not make it specific, no-one has the right to make it specific. The genius of the dress code in AQ is its simplicity and flexibility.
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Peace Wakas,
According to studyquran.org, zeenah means "Adornments", "Embellishments" and so on, and so I think zeenah that isn't normally apparent could be something like lingerie. Also, the quran says that women shouldn't reveal their hidden beauty by keeping their feet wide apart. A woman's underwear can show if she's wearing a skirt and sitting with her legs apart. "Hidden beauty" can't refer to a woman's privates because 2431 already tells women to hide those and the god wouldn't let women show their privates to related men, women and children.
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Supernaut what do you mean by feet wide apart what verse are you talking about?
I think the traditional hijab does have reflection of culture, I don?t think it goes against islam. I think it?s a personal choice as the Quran doesn?t command women to cover their hair.
Look at muslims around the word, they all have different hijab styles, I think it?s a reflection of culture.
I wore hijab because I thought of it as an Islamic obligation a part of submitting to the duty of God, but I was younger than I didn?t know much.. I still don?t think it?s bad. IF I think about taking it off now other than feeling totally uncomfortable I think I would fear my own actions in ways.
Wearing the hijab is a symbolic identity, so as I wear it I reflect on my actions it keeps me cautious/wary of them. Also I grew up in a sunni household so my perceptions maybe are more stricter. So in ways I think I bet I could attract more people without hijab but that?s not necessarily a good thing, so it?s probably better I wore hijab. I don?t regret wearing it.
I don?t get why people make a big fuss about it. I mean it?s either you want to wear it or you don?t.
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I vaguely recall a post by Ayman, I think, in which he said that daraba in 2431 should be translated as "Divide" instead of "Strike". Women are told not to sit with their legs open in such a way that their "hidden beauty" (perhaps lingerie) would be revealed.
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peace Supernaut,
Before I reply, I just realised a slight mistranslation in the MAI site, it should read "... except what is apparent of it" to match the Arabic. It has been corrected.
Also, I am not even sure underwear/lingerie existed or was common place at the time, as we know it today, but in any case, your view does not sit well with the information. Dude, we need to run our understanding through the filtering mechanism of AQ, and see what remains.
According to studyquran.org, zeenah means "Adornments", "Embellishments" and so on
No. Perhaps you mean in Project Root List (PRL) some of the meanings you mention are given as possibilities, or can mean those things. I also recommend an integral part of PRL, see its homepage http//www.studyquran.co.uk/Qwrmic.htm
Can you provide other examples of this word meaning "lingerie/underwear" from AQ?
Also, the quran says that women shouldn't reveal their hidden beauty by keeping their feet wide apart.
Everyone knows that a person can put their feet apart and still keep their legs above the knees together. Your translation is only valid if "arjul" means "legs", and whilst this may be a valid Classical Arabic meaning, as far as I'm aware it is not used like this in AQ.
"Hidden beauty" can't refer to a woman's privates because 2431 already tells women to hide those and the god wouldn't let women show their privates to related men, women and children.
Firstly, it says guard/hfz their private parts, not cover, but covering is one way of guarding them, but the primary implication is chastity.
I also made the mistake you made, and thought the same, but then I realised AQ is referring to what I termed "total beauty" (see equation above). Thus, how much to show of it is left to the individual and will be situational. For example, women's parts are exposed in childbirth and also the breasts in breast-feeding. Not to mention the verse includes "the child who has not yet understood the composition of women", it doesn't say the composition of lingerie/underwear does it! Also, if it did mean lingerie/underwear, then where is the guidance for the private parts, breasts, buttocks etc? Also, it would make lingerie/underwear compulsory, unless we are meant to somehow infer private parts from lingerie and treat them the same.
In any case, your view is problematic in the basic Arabic. Let's see what happens when we insert your understanding
"...and that they should not reveal their lingerie/underwear except what is apparent of (Arabic = min partitive) it..."
"And let them not strike with their feet that reveals what they are keeping hidden of (Arabic = min partitive) their lingerie/underwear."
Explain? Your only explanation can be their lingerie/underwear is partly apparent and partly hidden, and some arbitrary part of it must be kept hidden. This would also mean, this wearing method for it was the norm or only method.
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Some other observations
Note, it says "the child who has not yet understood the composition of women/nisa". Going by the context, it suggests "nisa" is a developed female, i.e. post-puberty. This further dents the traditional position on 654.
This also seems to imply it is unrelated children, which would suggest when unrelated children become aware of the composition of women, then the dress code is as for normal unrelated people.My only question mark on dress code was 2460, as I couldn't prove if it meant discard clothes in general (less likely), or in the house (more likely, due to context), or something else. But now having thought about it, if we take into consideration privacy in times of undress when others must seek permission to be among you at these times, and who revealing of "total beauty" applies to, then it implies (proves?) it is wthin the household. This would also imply that maintaining the minimum dress code with those mentioned in 2431 is better for us or the norm, unless there is a reason, e.g. 2460.
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"Zeena" in the qur'aan can be a natural part of what is mentioned. It can also be a huge wealth, not earrings or bracelets. It may also be specific to what it relates to
376
Surely We have adorned the nearest heaven with an adornment, the stars,
187
Surely We have made whatever is on the earth an embellishment for it, so that We may try them (as to) which of them is best in works.
3328
If you desire this world's life and its adornment
2860
only a provision of this world's life and its adornment
1115
Whoever desires this world's life and its finery
1846
Wealth and children are an adornment of the life of this world;
168
And (He made) horses and mules and asses that you might ride upon them and as an ornament
732
Say Who has prohibited the embellishment of Allah which He has brought forth for His servants and the good provisions?
1828
Know that this world's life is only sport and play and gaiety and boasting among yourselves, and a vying in the multiplication of wealth and children,
2879
So he went forth to his people in his finery. Those who desire this world's life said O would that we had the like of what Qaroun is given; most surely he is possessed of mighty good fortune.
1088
And Musa said Our Lord! surely Thou hast given to Firon and his chiefs finery and riches in this world's life,
1024
until when the earth puts on its golden raiment and it becomes garnished
But when clothes are mentioned, it becomes something else reesh
726
O children of Adam! We have indeed sent down to you clothing to cover your shame, and (clothing) for beauty and clothing that guards (against evil), that is the best. This is of the communications of Allah that they may be mindful.
I think the "zeena" of women is what's specific to them breasts and bums, and what makes them pretty/attractive.
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But the point of the verse is to leave it the women to determine what it is they think they should cover. It should NEVER be left for the man to interpret it, period. That causes women wearing Burkhas in Afghanistan.
Afghan man "Oh! The hands! I see her hands! Man gets an erection Cover her hand! Cut off her hand!", etc.
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I think the "zeena" of women is what's specific to them breasts and bums, and what makes them pretty/attractive.
I think it refers to everything and rather than to actual things to the function they are given Show, show off. I think that that the aya deals en great measure with vanity, and sexual trappings, when there is vanity, are a great part of it, and usually go hand in hand with other highlighters like apparel and jewellery and make up and surgery...
Salaam
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I think it refers to everything and rather than to actual things to the function they are given Show, show off. I think that that the aya deals en great measure with vanity, and sexual trappings, when there is vanity, are a great part of it, and usually go hand in hand with other highlighters like apparel and jewellery and make up and surgery...
Salaam
I partially agree with you, but when it comes to "apparel and jewellery and make up and surgery", women are not alone in that. Why aren't men commanded not to show them off? Or you think women do not have similar desires?
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Peace Sister
"Zeena" in the qur'aan can be a natural part of what is mentioned. It can also be a huge wealth, not earrings or bracelets. It may also be specific to what it relates to
376
Surely We have adorned the nearest heaven with an adornment, the stars,
187
Surely We have made whatever is on the earth an embellishment for it, so that We may try them (as to) which of them is best in works.
3328
If you desire this world's life and its adornment
2860
only a provision of this world's life and its adornment
1115
Whoever desires this world's life and its finery
1846
Wealth and children are an adornment of the life of this world;
168
And (He made) horses and mules and asses that you might ride upon them and as an ornament
732
Say Who has prohibited the embellishment of Allah which He has brought forth for His servants and the good provisions?
1828
Know that this world's life is only sport and play and gaiety and boasting among yourselves, and a vying in the multiplication of wealth and children,
2879
So he went forth to his people in his finery. Those who desire this world's life said O would that we had the like of what Qaroun is given; most surely he is possessed of mighty good fortune.
1088
And Musa said Our Lord! surely Thou hast given to Firon and his chiefs finery and riches in this world's life,
1024
until when the earth puts on its golden raiment and it becomes garnished
But when clothes are mentioned, it becomes something else reesh
726
O children of Adam! We have indeed sent down to you clothing to cover your shame, and (clothing) for beauty and clothing that guards (against evil), that is the best. This is of the communications of Allah that they may be mindful.
I think the "zeena" of women is what's specific to them breasts and bums, and what makes them pretty/attractive.
Definitely "Zeena" refers specifically to women's curve of the bums , the breasts ( no cleavage ) showing and nothing to do with jewellery or any other adornments , for 732 rules that out .
Peace
almarh0m
