Could an Atheist be a believer.
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Okay I realized we're going off topic and debating something (worthy but) irrelevant.
Let's start with this
How does the quran define justice?
Taking the quran's definition, what if an atheist person upholds the quran's definition perfectly? what then?2264 O you who believe, do not nullify your charities with insult and harm; like the one who spends his money in vanity to show the people, and he does not believe in God and the Last Day. His example is like a stone on which there is dust, then it is subjected to heavy rain which leaves it bare. They cannot do anything with what they earned; and God does not guide the rejecting people.
2265 And the example of those who spend their money seeking God?s grace, and to save their souls, is like the example of a garden that is on a high ground and is subjected to a heavy rain, and because of that it produces double its crop. And if no heavy rain comes, then light rain is enough. And God is Seer over all you do. -
Those verses are clearly talking about giving charity for show vs. doing it sincerely.
What we are talking about essentially is the definition of "believing in god." What does it mean to believe in god, and how do you know if a person believes in god.
What I'm saying is, your actions reflect your beliefs, exactly. What is inside you is manifested through your actions. So if your actions are right, then your beliefs must also be right, unless your actions are forced or insincere. -
The verse clearly indicate that deeds can be nullified when the foundation (belief in 1 God and the day of judgment) is not there.
your actions reflect your beliefs, exactly. What is inside you is manifested through your actions. So if your actions are right, then your beliefs must also be right, unless your actions are forced or insincere.
I just read "unless your actions are forced or insincere". Let me think about it more.
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unless your actions are forced or insincere.
So you are saying the person is sincerely doing good. What do you mean by "sincere"? e.g.
Person B gives food to the hungry. Person A laughs at them. They are both atheists. Who is right, and Why? And how does sincerity come into it?
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So you are saying the person is sincerely doing good. What do you mean by "sincere"? e.g.
Person B gives food to the hungry. Person A laughs at them. They are both atheists. Who is right, and Why? And how does sincerity come into it?
Person A is just an asshole, so he's not important.
Person B is giving food to the hungry. That's a good thing and person B deserves praise. But what if we find out Person B was only doing this so he could get that praise and feel good about himself? Then we wouldn't be so willing to heap praise on him. Your intentions have to be good as well.
Good intentions without actions or wrong actions is bad. And good actions based on wrong intentions is bad, as well. -
Person A is just an asshole, so he's not important.
Person B is giving food to the hungry. That's a good thing and person B deserves praise. But what if we find out Person B was only doing this so he could get that praise and feel good about himself? Then we wouldn't be so willing to heap praise on him. Your intentions have to be good as well.
Good intentions without actions or wrong actions is bad. And good actions based on wrong intentions is bad, as well.Well I wouldn't say Person A is an asshole. Just lacks incentive to do good. Person B however is being illogical because feeding poor people does not fit into the materialistic view of "survival of of the fittest".
I would go so far as to say that Person A is being more rationale then Person B. Anyway if this doesn't show that atheism is not compatible with universal morality then I don't know what will. You need to differentiate between social contract and morals. The first can be defined by humans, the latter must be defined by God.
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Well I wouldn't say Person A is an asshole. Just lacks incentive to do good. Person B however is being illogical because feeding poor people does not fit into the materialistic view of "survival of of the fittest".
I would go so far as to say that Person A is being more rationale then Person B. Anyway if this doesn't show that atheism is not compatible with universal morality then I don't know what will. You need to differentiate between social contract and morals. The first can be defined by humans, the latter must be defined by God.
I really don't understand what you're getting at. What does survival of the fittest have to do with this?
Atheists can be moral. I don't get how your analogy shows otherwise.
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Person A is just an asshole, so he's not important.
Person B is giving food to the hungry. That's a good thing and person B deserves praise. But what if we find out Person B was only doing this so he could get that praise and feel good about himself? Then we wouldn't be so willing to heap praise on him. Your intentions have to be good as well.
Good intentions without actions or wrong actions is bad. And good actions based on wrong intentions is bad, as well.What do you think would be a good intention?
The way I see it, every good action that someone does has a personal incentive behind it, and often it's to make themselves feel good about themselves, or to relieve some of the guilt that they feel from seeing someone less fortunate. -
Well I wouldn't say Person A is an asshole. Just lacks incentive to do good. Person B however is being illogical because feeding poor people does not fit into the materialistic view of "survival of of the fittest".
Person B through getting praise gets satisfaction and happiness from feeding the poor, so it is perfectly logical that he feed them.
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What do you think would be a good intention?
The way I see it, every good action that someone does has a personal incentive behind it, and often it's to make themselves feel good about themselves, or to relieve some of the guilt that they feel from seeing someone less fortunate.It is not guilt when we feel bad about others less fortunate than us. It is more like sympathy.
I would say something good should be done for the sake of it. We should do the right thing because it is right, not because it benefits us. Although it does end up benefiting is more often than not.
When we do things for our own good (like most people do), we end up sacrificing our principles when the going gets tough. People are only moral as long as it is easy. That's not how it should be.If someone helps the poor for the sake of helping the poor, he is not serving himself but serving something higher than himself. I'd say he is a believer.
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Peace to all,
I have to say, this is a good post, some of the best arguments ive seen in awhile on the forum. My opinions are actually closer to bro aalmaktos, though Lobster makes many good points. For the sake of argument though, LObster, just doing things that one coniders good is really not enough, and does not make a believer, what would you say of a satanist who actually believes in doing good things to others but only based on an ethic of reciprocity, not becvause its inherently good itself, they actually will say they reject God and worship satan and then openly do good things in order to furhter their cause, many are confused by the satanist creed when they see satanists arent out killing pweople and committing crimes, they believe in doing good but only because it will advance their own interests on earth, they deny an eternal punishment or power of Gods judgement, so are they doing good and living by GOds ethic, though they openly reject and deny, they still go therough all the motions if it benefits them personaly and temporily. Are they still believers then?
Kurt
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It is not guilt when we feel bad about others less fortunate than us. It is more like sympathy.
I would say something good should be done for the sake of it. We should do the right thing because it is right, not because it benefits us. Although it does end up benefiting is more often than not.
When we do things for our own good (like most people do), we end up sacrificing our principles when the going gets tough. People are only moral as long as it is easy. That's not how it should be.If someone helps the poor for the sake of helping the poor, he is not serving himself but serving something higher than himself. I'd say he is a believer.
Reasons for when someone helps another person consciously are always going to be selfish in someway. When someone helps the poor, it may be that they feel bad for them, and as a result they have a sort of lust to help them. If they do not satisfy this lust, they won't be able to relieve themselves of the guilt and of feeling bad for the less fortunate person. They are therefore not doing the good deed for the sake of it.
For example, I often help others, not for the sake of it, but because seeing a smile on their face as a result of what I've done for them makes me feel happy. The goal for me is that feeling of satisfaction and happiness.
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I really don't understand what you're getting at. What does survival of the fittest have to do with this?
Let me put it this way. For an atheist the only action they should be concerned with is improving their personal chances of survival. Would you agree with this?
The only logical reason they would do "good" is in order to feel better, earn peoples respect etc. Please explain if you believe otherwise.
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Person B through getting praise gets satisfaction and happiness from feeding the poor, so it is perfectly logical that he feed them.
Yes but Lobster has already ruled out those people as "believers"
But what if we find out Person B was only doing this so he could get that praise and feel good about himself? Then we wouldn't be so willing to heap praise on him. Your intentions have to be good as well.
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what would you say of a satanist who actually believes in doing good things to others but only based on an ethic of reciprocity, not becvause its inherently good itself, they actually will say they reject God and worship satan and then openly do good things in order to furhter their cause, many are confused by the satanist creed when they see satanists arent out killing pweople and committing crimes, they believe in doing good but only because it will advance their own interests on earth, they deny an eternal punishment or power of Gods judgement, so are they doing good and living by GOds ethic, though they openly reject and deny, they still go therough all the motions if it benefits them personaly and temporily. Are they still believers then?
Peace bro,
Its becoming clearer to me that there are certain Quranic Criteria that need to be in place before you can be a "believer". It cannot be from actions alone. I cannot imagine an atheist doing something because it is "inherently good" because "matter" does not provide any evidence that it contains this quality. So because an atheist cannot deduce it objectively that means all their deeds are because of subjective bias. -
salam.
allah says, when asked of your faith, say you are of the faith of ibrahim who was ever the obedient one.
a person saying they are atheist is disobediance to allah. it is not obedience to claim atheism as their faith.
therefore the person who claims atheism is not of the faith.
allah is the truth.
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Peace to all,
I have to say, this is a good post, some of the best arguments ive seen in awhile on the forum. My opinions are actually closer to bro aalmaktos, though Lobster makes many good points. For the sake of argument though, LObster, just doing things that one coniders good is really not enough, and does not make a believer, what would you say of a satanist who actually believes in doing good things to others but only based on an ethic of reciprocity, not becvause its inherently good itself, they actually will say they reject God and worship satan and then openly do good things in order to furhter their cause, many are confused by the satanist creed when they see satanists arent out killing pweople and committing crimes, they believe in doing good but only because it will advance their own interests on earth, they deny an eternal punishment or power of Gods judgement, so are they doing good and living by GOds ethic, though they openly reject and deny, they still go therough all the motions if it benefits them personaly and temporily. Are they still believers then?
Kurt
We've already covered this point, Kurt. As the quran says, you have to do good for the sake of god. God is represented by all the divine qualities like mercy, graciousness, etc. These qualities are how god is manifested on earth. So if you serve these qualities with sincerity and without selfishness, you are serving god.
Doing good things to further your own cause doesn't make you a believer. Because as soon as good actions stop benefitting you, you stop doing them. You have to believe in doing the right thing no matter what. Even if it kills you you do the right thing...but maybe that's going too far I dunno.
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Reasons for when someone helps another person consciously are always going to be selfish in someway. When someone helps the poor, it may be that they feel bad for them, and as a result they have a sort of lust to help them. If they do not satisfy this lust, they won't be able to relieve themselves of the guilt and of feeling bad for the less fortunate person. They are therefore not doing the good deed for the sake of it.
For example, I often help others, not for the sake of it, but because seeing a smile on their face as a result of what I've done for them makes me feel happy. The goal for me is that feeling of satisfaction and happiness.
It's not true that people only do good for selfish reasons.
A lot of times people go through great pains to do something for others. I know I've suffered a few times just to do a favor for a friend. I'd much rather not done those things but I felt like I should, so I did.
People put their lives in danger to save others. You can't possibly think that seeing that smile on the person's face is more important to them than their instinct to survive.
there are many examples of people suffering to help others.
Even when you give money away to charity, you are hurting yourself. There are always mixed emotions. And the people who feel good about helping others CHOOSE to focus on the positive emotions.
And that obviously connects to our focus (qibla) which always has to be in the right direction. It all connects.