Could an Atheist be a believer.
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salam.
allah says, when asked of your faith, say you are of the faith of ibrahim who was ever the obedient one.
a person saying they are atheist is disobediance to allah. it is not obedience to claim atheism as their faith.
therefore the person who claims atheism is not of the faith.
allah is the truth.
Again you are putting too much stock in words and meaningless titles.
"Allah is the truth?" What does that mean? That can mean so many different things. So many wrong things, too.God is just a term....maybe we are misinterpreting it. Maybe we're not understanding it properly. What I'm arguing for is a critical look at our definitions.
Why is it that a person who CLAIMS to be a believer more of a believer than a person who actually does what a believer should?
Maybe the person who's actions are correct is a believer? Maybe the difference is only on the surface - in the form of words and mixed up terminology? -
Let me put it this way. For an atheist the only action they should be concerned with is improving their personal chances of survival. Would you agree with this?
The only logical reason they would do "good" is in order to feel better, earn peoples respect etc. Please explain if you believe otherwise.
No, no. Here, the definiton of atheist we are using is a person who denies the existence of god. That's it.
He can be a carbon copy of a muslim, except for that fact. -
No, no. Here, the definiton of atheist we are using is a person who denies the existence of god. That's it.
He can be a carbon copy of a muslim, except for that fact.Yes and if a person doesn't believe in God then the only thing they should be concerned about is improving their chances of survival and increasing their pleasure. The only logical reason they would do "good" is in order to feel better, earn peoples respect etc. If they do it for any other reasons they are being illogical to their beliefs.
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Yes and if a person doesn't believe in God then the only thing they should be concerned about is improving their chances of survival and increasing their pleasure. The only logical reason they would do "good" is in order to feel better, earn peoples respect etc. If they do it for any other reasons they are being illogical to their beliefs.
They are being illogical to their beliefs? No one can be illogical to their beliefs. Maybe they don't believe that?
The definition of atheist, god, believer are all being challenged here.If an "atheist" doesn't believe in god, but still does good, then maybe your definition of god is wrong?
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They are being illogical to their beliefs? No one can be illogical to their beliefs. Maybe they don't believe that?
The definition of atheist, god, believer are all being challenged here.If an "atheist" doesn't believe in god, but still does good, then maybe your definition of god is wrong?
Please then, explain the logic behind this hypothetical atheists actions.
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Yes and if a person doesn't believe in God then the only thing they should be concerned about is improving their chances of survival and increasing their pleasure. The only logical reason they would do "good" is in order to feel better, earn peoples respect etc. If they do it for any other reasons they are being illogical to their beliefs.
I think you are taking the dog by the queue. we are talking not about acting in order to feel better but out of conviction. Moved by what you say people will go only so far, in fact not very far.
And it is our deeds what show our REAL deep down belief, not wht we say we believe, not what we think we believe, but what we stand on beyond any worldly posturing. If deep down we do not believe, we do not act. The proof of what we really believe, beyond any mental delusion, is our deeds.
Salaam
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The qeustion to be asked is what is properly meant by "God", "Good", and "Unbelief". For example suppose I say God is gravity. So an atheist must then deny gravity to be a atheist. I think "atheist" is a meaningless word.
Salam,
Good example L.Hu which lets us see a clear answer.....An atheist is a Kaffir....one who covers over the truth.
They are being illogical to their beliefs? No one can be illogical to their beliefs. Maybe they don't believe that?
The definition of atheist, god, believer are all being challenged here.If an "atheist" doesn't believe in god, but still does good, then maybe your definition of god is wrong?
Exactly!
Belief is defined by actions not labels.
A thief may claim to believe that stealing is wrong. But the fact that he steals is the TRUE evidence of his belief. So therefore he is lying.
No one goes against their own personal belief system....Makes you think doesn't it? Everything you DO is evidence of your belief....What ever your faults are what ever your transgressions are....as long as you are still doing them actively they are evidence of your TRUE belief regardless of what you say you believe.Words are just expressions of what we observe and what we are thinking (which is also a form of personal observation). They are a similitude/example they are nothing but sounds in and of themselves. They are used to get us to the point of understanding these observations clearly. Once we understand that, we can understand how to recognize the definition of belief.
Salam,
Arnab -
You've got it all wrong Lobster. It's not that words are more important than actions, it's that words ARE actions.
Saying "I believe in GOD" then doing things GOD recommends against, or neglecting to do things GOD recomends to do, shows a lack of belief in GOD. If they really believed in GOD they would do those things to the best of their ability because they know GOD knows better than them. Not only are they a liar but a hypocrite and it's up to GOD to determine their forgiveness and mercy.
However, saying "I don't believe in GOD" is an act of atheism and is disbelief. They don't have divine guidance and have to determine for themselves what is good and what is bad.
Consider the example of your thief. A monotheist knows thievery of any kind is unacceptable in GODs moral code, and will not steal.
However, an atheist could argue that private property is a human invention and there's nothing wrong with doing whatever is in your physical ability -- taking risks and facing consequences is part of life. Suddenly the act of theft changes from "Stealing another persons posession" to "liberating resources from those who don't need them." Stealing is actually working towards the 'greater good' in this mindset, but another atheist may still claim stealing is wrong for an entirely different set of reasons.
WIth atheism everything gets foggy and subjective. One could justify almost any action they wanted to. No, I don't trust atheists. They're not believers in anything I believe in.
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The atheist is indeed silly in his rejection of God, or idols, and unaware of his description of his universe, as selfsufficient. Is that not indeed the same attribute of God? ) They do exactly the same as the idolaters of old, and give attributes of God, to created things.
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Rsw, how can words be actions? They are quite different. I can say whatever I like, but I only DO what I believe deep down inside. As you yourself said, I can say I believe in god, but my actions might be completely different.
I have already addressed all the points you made in your post.
The example you gave about the thief...I think you mean that people can have false beliefs about what is right and wrong. That's true, but here we are talking about someone who knows stealing is wrong (most of the time)...someone who has the right beliefs.
There's this friend of mine who considers herself an atheist but she doesn't steal, doesn't drink, doesn't lie or cheat, she's even very polite unlike myself.
That is the kind of person we are talking about. Who always does the right thing. How can his beliefs not be right if his actions are?Nothing is getting subjective here. Morality is very much objective. The truth is clear from falsehood, as the quran says.
The mistake you are making is putting too much stock in what people SAY they believe, or THINK they believe, rather than judging their beliefs by their actions.
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salam lobster.
how can words be actions? They are quite different.
rsw is correct. spoken words are the action of the mouth. written words are the action of the hand.
The mistake you are making is putting too much stock in what people SAY they believe, or THINK they believe
allah had the quran spoken to us therefore i put a lot of stock in what allah says.
what a person thinks is irrelevant, until they justify a particular thought, by an action.for example you have justified your thought, that atheism is, to you, an acceptable practice, by the act of creating this thread.
allah is the truth.
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The difference between words and actions is that words don't necessarily reflect our beliefs, while actions do.
So why do people have to justify thoughts with actions but not their words? I don't get what you are arguing here.
Please answer this for me
If someone's actions are all right, why would their beliefs be wrong? Aren't our actions the direct result of our beliefs?
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salam lobster.
Aren't our actions the direct result of our beliefs?
let me give you the following actions. the actions of a paranoid person, the actions of a spastic person, the actions of a one year old child.
no reasonable person can say the actions of either person is the result of their beliefs.
allah is the truth.
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Why not? Please explain.
Doesn't the quran say that God will not change your condition unless you change what is inside you? That is because what is inside you (your beliefs) is what directly effects your actions which determine your condition.
Your beliefs are like seeds that are sowed into you, and they grow into actions/behavior.
salam.
p.s. we are excluded mentally ill people from this discussion. But there is always a psychological reason for our actions.
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Salaam
7174 Recall that your Lord summoned all the descendants of Adam, and had them bear witness for themselves "Am I not your Lord?" They all said, "Yes. We bear witness." Thus, you cannot say on the Day of Resurrection, "We were not aware of this."
There are some people who are put off religion because they see s. c. religious people making so much mischief in the world, in the name of God, and getting away with it. This turns many people to the belief that there is no God as there seems to be no checks and balances.
However some people are inherently good and truthful, GOD IS THEIR CONSCIENCE AND THEY WOULD NOT GO AGAINST THEIR CONSCIENCE, whereas others pretend to be believers, but do all they can to fool others. They are not not aware of their conscience and are deaf and blind. Nothing can convince them of what is a real good deed as they rebel against their own self.
However those who possess a reminding conscience AND believe that they are answerable to God, feeling they are constantly watched by the Almighty these are the ones who are careful of their testimony to God.Satan is not a believer as he has seen God after which there is no belief but rather knowledge. He is simply rebellious, but for the rest of us, who never had direct conversation with God it all depends on our beliefs whether we believe in justice and accountability for our deeds to our creator. If we do we believe in God but do not believe in accountability there is no active conscience to haunt you or remind you.
A believer reflects on God's creation and has more expectations from our afterlife, which non believer lacks 7185
Did they not look at the dominion of heavens and Earth, and all that God has created? Perhaps their time is drawing near; so in which narrations after this one will they believe?
peace -
What? So you have no counter argument?
You expect counter arguments from someone who thinks God made men superior , and he is Al-Araf. brickwall
Why not? Please explain.
Doesn't the quran say that God will not change your condition unless you change what is inside you? That is because what is inside you (your beliefs) is what directly effects your actions which determine your condition.
Your beliefs are like seeds that are sowed into you, and they grow into actions/behavior.
Change what is inside you could also mean stir your conscious (belief), find out what is driving you down only then you can improve your condition.
peace -
367 Abraham was neither a "Jew" nor a "Christian", but was one who turned away from all that is false, having surrendered himself unto God; and he was not of those who ascribe divinity to aught beside Him.
I think what this verse is saying is that believing in the truth and doing the right thing constitutes belief in God.
When people ask me what my religious views are, I tell them I'm "sort of an atheist." So they go, you don't believe in anything? I do. I believe in always doing the right thing.
Having faith in the unseen has to do with having faith that our right actions will eventually pay off. A lot times doing the right thing is hard, and it seems a lot easier to just cheat your way through. But we know from observing others and from our own experiences, we know that bad actions usually have bad consequences and vice versa.Many people I know don't really believe in anything, even though they think they have faith. They do good things as long as it is convenient, and when it is not, they resort to immoral behavior. That's giving in to our desires and temptations, giving in to satan. That's not believing in anything but yourself. That's setting up partners with god, as you are serving yourself instead of god.
I think what it always comes down to is what choices you make. Do you pick what is right or what is easy? That's what seperates the believers from the disbelievers, not saying the shahada or some other magic words.