The Prayer Issue Revived
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Ok, this is starting off from the middle of another thread in another section.
First I will quote my post, then the rebuttal, and then post my response.Step 1 The initial argument on the subject of prayer
I would like to point out that the number of 5 prayers can
be very soundly supported through the Quran itself. First of all...Prayer indeed has been enjoined on the believers at fixed times.
4103This verse makes it clear that there are fixed times and therefore a fixed number
of the contact prayers, (i.e the number is not arbitrary). Then there is the verse 1778
which broadly defines all the 5 times together"Keep up prayer from the declining of the sun till the darkness of the night and
the morning recitation; surely the morning recitation is witnessed."Notice that the words "from" and "until" are used, which indicate that the number
of prayers must be more then 3. And since there is another verse in the
Quran which mentions a "middle prayer" (223 it is clear that this number must
be an odd number. So we know that it must be more then 3, and and odd number.
This is Quranic evidence for the number 5. Taken together with the unbroken practice of
Muslims over generations (unless you can prove otherwise) is proof enough that
the established number of prayers is 5.@ Bigmo
Is this mere suspicion enough to reject the practice? As I said, you would have to provide
evidence that there was a time when the Muslims used to pray any more or less then 5 contact prayers.
Also, you will have to admit that your argument is completely based on circumstantial evidence. This is what
I meant when I said that you will have a hard time proving the number 5 is wrong. I do appreciate the detail
and effort. But you have admit that it is basically all speculation.@ Wakas
If there is evidence within the Quran. Then the popularity becomes
supporting evidence, and not a fallacy.Observe the following verses which were part of the list you gave.
The first two verses clearly mention bowing down and standing as
part of the contact prayer. And the last verse clearly indicates that
there is a set form and length to each prayer, as we are allowed to
shorten it during travel.And Keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate and bow down with those that bow down.
243Guard strictly your (habit of) prayers, especially the Middle Prayer; and stand before Allah in a devout (frame of mind).
2.238And when you journey in the earth there is no blame on you if you shorten the prayer...
4101Basically, there is a lot of stuff that is not based in the Quran which you can challenge,
but the 5 contact prayers, their methods, and timings, this is not extra-Quranic. It is
a very essential obligation mentioned in the Quran.Step 2, the Rebuttal
I am combining the posts of Mr. Bigmo and Dr. FazlNot all of them are alike of the People of the book are a portion that stand (for the right); they rehearse the signs of Allah all night long and then prostrate themselves in adoration. They believe in Allah and the Last Day; they enjoin what is right and forbid what is wrong; and they (hasten in emulation) in (all) good works; they are in the ranks of the righteous. Of the good that they do nothing will be rejected of them; for Allah knoweth well those that do right.
And there are certainly among the people of the Book those who believe in Allah in the revelation to you and in the revelation to them bowing in humility to Allah they will not sell the signs of Allah for a miserable gain! for them is a reward with their Lord and Allah is swift in account.
16.48. Do they not look at Allah.s creation, (even) among (inanimate) things,- How their (very) shadows turn round, from the right and the left, prostrating themselves to Allah, and that in the humblest manner?
So we see that prostration is mentioned in the Koran but we see no specific standard for the salat you say. Its not whether the 5 salat are Sunnah or not its the question whether its the only way.
If the acting salat is so important than the salat in action, then it is never possible. Muhammad accepted from Allah, the 50 times salat per day on his ascent to heaven to meet Allah. Only for the people's sake who will never follow the prophet Muhammad in this regard, he had to scale 50 down by heavily bargaining through nine meetings with Him reducing each time by 5 waqts. Then also Musa says the followers cannot pray so much. But muhammad was only ashamed to go to Allah again; had he done so definitely Allah would have removed the last remaining 5 waqts also. So it is not at all wrong to do away with the ritual, acting - the salat.
But one thing is definite! Muhammad would have surely followed 50 waqts every day because he had accepted the same from Allah and never bargained for reduction for himself but did so only for the fake people at large who will claim to follow him. What do the hadith followers have to say about the timings that muhammad observed daily for his 50 waqts prayer, if it is acting salat?
Point #1
Firstly, I did not say that the Quran mentions the standard, I said that the Quran says that
there is a standard. This is clear when we are told that we can shorten our
prayers when we are traveling, this implies that there is a set length to the prayer. If there
was no set length or standard, then why would God tell us we can "shorten" the prayer? If
its length was arbitrary to begin with, this injunction would not have been necessary.Point #2
Both of these rebuttals, do not address all the arguments made in the initial argument.
Also, once again the arguments you have made are based in circumstantial evidence.
You assume that since the methods of prayer of the Jews have been similar to Muslims in the past,
that our current methods of prayer are borrowed from them, and are not taught by the Prophet.
This is pure speculation.Now I agree that the pattern of prayer is not as strict as the different sects claim,
but this does not mean that the method of prayer is arbitrary either. There is a general guideline
which all sects follow, e.g. The recitation of Surah Fatiah "The Opening" and the bowing down.
The number of rakats are very uniform within most schools of thought, but I am not here to
argue how many rakats you should pray. That is besides the point. The point is that there is
a fixed number of prayers, at fixed times, and there is a method that is given by the Prophet
for those prayers that should be followed.Point #3
There is clear evidence in the Quran that the number of prayers is more then 3, and is an odd
number. Therefore, the number 5 is clearly supported by the overwhelming popularity of the
practice of 5 daily prayers. If you challenge this practice, then you would have to provide
evidence that there was a time in the ummah when the Muslims use to pray more or less then
5 daily prayers. So far, you have not provided any evidence to indicate this. -
peace,
Thanks for starting a new thread.
Before we begin
Have you read the past discussions in this forum on the topic of salat timing? meaning of "sujud"? meaning of "ruku"?
Nope, but the points you have mentioned do not apply to this thread,
I think, as it is making the case that only if there were no verses in the
Quran to indicate the number, and the existence of a format, and the
existence of fixed times, only then could we move this discussion to realms
like the meaning of the words you mentioned. Because then there would be
evidence that the suspicion on this practice is warranted. But as it stands now,
there has not even been any proof provided that this practice was ever any
different then it is today.Therefore, since all of these things have a foundation in the Quran, the practices
that we see in the ummah become supporting evidence for the contact
prayers as they are today. Thoughts?PeAcE
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Nope, but the points you have mentioned do not apply to this thread,
I think, as it is making the case that only if there were no verses in the
Quran to indicate the number, and the existence of a format, and the
existence of fixed times, only then could we move this discussion to realms
like the meaning of the words you mentioned. Because then there would be
evidence that the suspicion on this practice is warranted. But as it stands now,
there has not even been any proof provided that this practice was ever any
different then it is today.Therefore, since all of these things have a foundation in the Quran, the practices
that we see in the ummah become supporting evidence for the contact
prayers as they are today. Thoughts?PeAcE
All believers pray with fixed timings. Its part of the routine of life, like eating and sleeping. You are understanding fixed timing wrong. People usually pray in the mornings and evenings and some may pray at noon. Some Christians also pray before eating. Nearly all societies have fixed timings for praying as they have fixed timings for anything else in life. Believers are diligent about their prayers and know that if you keep slipping the time eventually you might abandon it. Its like charity, you always have a certaing percent you give out or else you will neglect it. So I do not see fixed timings as something related to what you are saying. The Koran does give us fixed timings and these fixed timings are typical for humans. Its another way of saying being consistent. Anyways Sunnis do not have fixed timings, only Maghrib has a certain small time frame. The verses that mention the timing of salat in the Koran says fajr and Isha, these are fixed timings and it says at the edges of the day, these are fixed timings. Some people pray before sleep, these are fixed timings. The problem is you believe these fixed timings are things that you should be given. Maybe you are not used to devicing your own. Its like exercising, those who are serious keep a routine and they stick with it.
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Wakas + Bigmo
@ Wakas
If there were only 3 times of the contact prayers, then the words "from"
and "until" would not need to be used. As the three times are already
mentioned in that verse.@ Bigmo
But that is not what the verse is saying. It is not saying that all believers
have their own fixed times. It is clearly saying that the times for the prayers
are themselves fixed.Also, you have not yet provided any proof that the practice of 5 daily prayers
at their stated times was ever any different then it is today. Unless you provide
evidence for this, you do not really have a case.PeAcE
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Peace code,
You are conveniently ignoring that the verse mentions "salaat" (singular), and not "salawaat" (plural), so the "from" and "until" mean it is the timing for one salaat and not more than one for that time period. The "from" and "until" combined with singular "salaat" actually refute the understanding of more than one salaat in that time period. I have seen this time and again that people twist the word of God based on their personal pre-conceived notions based on unverifiable hearsay and refuse to see the clear signs. This has been discussed in this forum ad nauseum so no further comments from me on this issue.
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Salaams the cOde peace,
Salaams,
This has been discussed a number of times but i wonder if you can visualise it from a different angle but using the quran in main4103
---------- verily the Salaat is on the believers enjoined at fixed time and do not be weak----------.Name of Allah ALMUQEET = The possessor of power.
Man yashfaAA shafaAAatan hasanatanyakun lahu naseebun minha waman yashfaAA shafaAAatansayyi-atan yakun lahu kiflun minha wakana AllahuAAala kulli shay-in MUQEETUN
Whoever recommends and helps a good cause becomes a partner therein And whoever recommends and helps an evil cause, shares in its burden And Allah hath power over all things.
According to lanes(P 2571)
Muqeetun = Giving or giver of Food/Sustenance/Keeping/Preserving/Guarding.
Mawqootan= Nourishment/Preservation/Protection ; As is needful.
SO AN ALTERNATIVE TRANSLATION COULD WELL BE
4103
------------verily the Salaat is on the believers an enjoined requirement and not be weak-------------.e.t.cGod Bless.
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Wakas + Bigmo
@ Wakas
If there were only 3 times of the contact prayers, then the words "from"
and "until" would not need to be used. As the three times are already
mentioned in that verse.@ Bigmo
But that is not what the verse is saying. It is not saying that all believers
have their own fixed times. It is clearly saying that the times for the prayers
are themselves fixed.Also, you have not yet provided any proof that the practice of 5 daily prayers
at their stated times was ever any different then it is today. Unless you provide
evidence for this, you do not really have a case.PeAcE
But the verse does not say who are to fix it and there is nowhere in the Koran where it says what those fixed times are. It says it should be at the two ends of the day etc. Plus you want me to prove how the 5 daily prayers were not the way they were. However you still have not provided that they were fixed that way. Plus you still have not explained about how the Rika'at are from the prophet. Now the Koran says that
51.19 And in their wealth the beggar and the outcast had due share.
What is the share?
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@ All
Salaam everyone.... rite then
The problem with your arguments are basic You are the ones who are
making a claim challenging the established ritual of prayer. So the
burden of proof is on you, not everyone else. You can't just make
an objection (which you have not proven) and then expect others
to provide proof before you have presented prof for your objection.In logic, this would be considered an Argument from Ignorance.
Here is a description of this particular error from wikipediaArgument from ignorance ("appeal to ignorance" The fallacy of assuming that something is true/false because it has not been proven false/true. For example "The student has failed to prove that he didn't cheat on the test, therefore he must have cheated on the test."
The burden of proof is on you because you have raised the objection that the
established number of prayers was (at one time) something other then 5.
Until you provide this proof, as I said, you don't really have a real argument.
But for the sake of discussion lets continueYou are conveniently ignoring that the verse mentions "salaat" (singular), and not "salawaat" (plural), so the "from" and "until" mean it is the timing for one salaat and not more than one for that time period.
You could only make that claim if verse 4103
did not exist. Since it already makes it clear that there
are fixed times for the prayer and thus 1778 points
out that those times are between1 in the Mourning and then a break...
2 then again starting from Mid Day
3 And Going on until night.. and then another breaknowhere in the Koran where it says what those fixed times are.
Of course it does not say what those exact times are
because the world is a sphere and the timings for each
section of the planet are different. You expect the Quran
to tell you that Zuhr is at 1230pm?PeAcE
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@ All
Salaam everyone.... rite then
The problem with your arguments are basic You are the ones who are
making a claim challenging the established ritual of prayer. So the
burden of proof is on you, not everyone else. You can't just make
an objection (which you have not proven) and then expect others
to provide proof before you have presented prof for your objection.In logic, this would be considered an Argument from Ignorance.
Here is a description of this particular error from wikipediaThe burden of proof is on you because you have raised the objection that the
established number of prayers was (at one time) something other then 5.
Until you provide this proof, as I said, you don't really have a real argument.
But for the sake of discussion lets continueYou could only make that claim if verse 4103
did not exist. Since it already makes it clear that there
are fixed times for the prayer and thus 1778 points
out that those times are between1 in the Mourning and then a break...
2 then again starting from Mid Day
3 And Going on until night.. and then another breakOf course it does not say what those exact times are
because the world is a sphere and the timings for each
section of the planet are different. You expect the Quran
to tell you that Zuhr is at 1230pm? PPeAcE
The anology you threw is not correct. First you did not answer what is the due share to be given to the asker or beggar?
The anolgy that you brought from some encyclopeadia is not correct. This is because the Sunnah are brought to people as prophetic sunnah and Sunnis also have hadiths that explixitly says its so. So when you provide evidence then you need to show its authenticity. We are not doing anything of the sort here. We are just trying to debate the Koran.
If someone was to tell you that this car is the best car in the world, don't you think you will ask him what makes him thinks so and what is his evidence? I am not saying that it or it's not. Plus some here will have their won understanding of where these rituals come from. Its a very complex issue and unless we have archeological discoveries we really do not know. neither the Torah, Gospel or Koran tells us how to exactly pray but they all gives us guidelines. In fact the guidelines are very similar if not identical.
Now some here will give you this
THE RITUAL PRAYER (NAMAAZ) AND MORE
Ardeshir SpencerI am a Zoroastrian. Dr. Shabbir?s research is quite right. Your NAMAAZ was stolen from Zoroastrianism by your Parsi Imams from Persia.
It would be appropriate if we can discuss the startling similarities between some practices of Islam and Zoroastrianism. These parallels go beyond coincident. I will endeavor to enumerate a few here
- Requirements of prayers Islam enjoins its followers to pray 5 times a day and is called by the Muezzin to his prayers. These prayers are at i) Dawn ii) Noon iii) Afternoon iv) Sunset v) Night.
Zoroastrianism also enjoins prayers 5 times a day called ?Geh?. The devotee is summoned by the ringing of a bell in the AtashBehram / Agiary. These prayers are also at the same time as in Islam and their respective names are
Time Islamic/ Zorastrianism
Dawn Fajar/ Havaan
Noon Zohar/ Rapithwan
Afternoon Asr/ Uziren
Evening Mazreem or Maghrib/ Aiwisuthrem
Night time Isha or Ishan/ Ushaen.
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Pre-requisites of Prayer On entering the mosque and prior to commencing prayers a Muslim has to cover his head and wash his face and limbs. Similarly, a Zoroastrian on entering the Agiary will cover his head, wash his face and limbs and perform the Padyaab Kusti before commencing his prayers.
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The Prayers Prayers in Islam are in Arabic only, though translations/transliterations are available. The liturgy has to be conducted in Arabic only. In Zoroastrianism too, prayers have to be recited in Avesta or in Pazend only. In fact in Aveatan prayers Pazend portions have to be recited in an undertone so as not to break the seamless flow of Avestan Manthravani.
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Sanctum Sanctorum and its veneration The holiest spot in a Mosque is the wall facing Mecca and is called the Qiblah. In the Atashbehram/Agiary the room where the Atash Padshah is enthroned is also called the Keblaah. A Muslim will perform the Sajdah in front of the Qiblah and so also will the Zoroastrian perform the Sezdah before his Keblaah. Both involve kneeling down and touching the forehead to the ground.
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A Holy Month In Islam Ramzan is the holy month in which all Muslims are required to fast in the day and only break their fast after sunset. In Zoroastrianism the month of Bahman has similiar connotations wherein all are requested to particularly abstain from flesh. Perhaps in the age of the Sassanian dynasty the month of Bahman was observed as Ramzan is now.
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Ascent into Heaven The hagiography of Islam assures us that Prophet Mohammad ascended to heaven from Jerusalem on the mythical beast Burrrak. He crossed the 7 spheres, exchanged greetings with the patriarchs and beheld the glory of God.
The Dinkard tells us that at the entreaties of Asho Zarthustra Bahman Ameshaspand transcendentally elevated his consciousness to the realm of heaven wherein Asho Zarthustra looked at the reflugent majesty of God. A similiar journey was attributed to the virtuous Ardaviraf who visited hell, purgatory and heaven during his spiritual journey.
The above similarities are obvious. A more careful research would reveal more parallels. However even these points are too close to be dismissed as mere coincidences. This means Zoroastrianism has had an enormous impact on Islam which is not acknowledged. Everyone agrees Islam owes a lot to Judaism and Christianity but I feel that the scholars of Islam borrowed very heavily from Iran and this can be perhaps attributed to that shadowy figure of Dastur Dinyar (Salman Farsi). This debt is so impressive that it had to be consistently downgraded and later denied. After all if Islam is supposedly directly inspired by God it cannot be seen to be acknowledging any debt to an older faith, specially the faith of a nation which Islam has defeated. This may perhaps explain the devotion of your Persian Imams to my Faith.
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Chinvat Bridge (The SIRAAT BRIDGE) According to ancient Persian myth, when a person dies, the soul remains by the body for three days. On the fourth, it travels to Chinvat Bridge (the Bridge of the Separator, also call Al-Sirat), accompanied by gods of protection. The bridge is ?finer than a hair and sharper than a sword? and spans a deep chasm teeming with monsters. On the other side of the bridge is the gateway to paradise.
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Hell Demons guard the foot of the bridge and argue with the gods over the soul?s fate. The actions of the dead person, both good and bad, are weighed, and the soul is either allowed to cross or denied access to the bridge. Spirits whose evil outweighs their good fall into the demon-infested pit to face eternal torment. In this abyss of the damned, each soul is tortured by a GHOUL that represents its sins in life. Once fallen into the gulf, no soul can escape the horrors of hell through its own power.
Zoroaster, a sixth century BC religious leader, had warned his followers of this obstacle to heaven but he promised to lead his flock safely across. The ancient manuscript Gathas (Songs of Zoroaster) explains that the Bridge of the Separator ?becomes narrow for the wicked,? whereas the holy can easily pass unharmed. (In Gathas, the fair god Rashnu is named as the judge who helps determine who is worthy of salvation and who must be damned.) All infidels (non-believers) fall into hell, which the prophet says has been created especially for the ?followers of the lie.?
The legends are sketchy but assert that Chinvat Bridge is located somewhere in the far north. It is a place of filth where the damned endure physical tortures and spiritual agony. Souls who are unsuccessful in crossing the Chinvat Bridge suffer these torments until AHRAMAN, the evil god of ZOROASTRIANISM, is destroyed by the good god Orzmahd during the LAST JUDGMENT. As this time, lost spirits are restored to the truth since ?the lie? has been eradicated, or they face final ANNIHILATION.
Notice the similarity? So you guys are actually pagan stone and sun worshippers, correct? But your Koran is pure and free from plagiarism.
THE FIVE RITUAL ZOROASTRIAN PRAYERS
The five prayers were developed AFTER the Prophet Zoroaster.
See below some quotes on the ritual prayer ceremony
From the book J.J. Modi The Religious Ceremonies and Customs of the Parsees. (Bombay, 1922.) Part 3.- There are three grades of the Sacred Fire-(A) The Sacred Fire of the Atash Behram, (B) that of the Atash, Adaran and (C) that of the Atash Dadgah. These three have their different rituals of consecration and also different rituals for the daily prayers at the five times (gahs) of the day, when they are fed with fresh fuel. We will, at first, speak of the process of consecrating these three grades of the sacred fire. For example, he falls on his knees in his prayers; he lowers his head and bows; he raises his hands towards Heaven. All these ways or rites, which symbolize service or obedience or homage to God, are done occasionally.
The candidate is to say his prayers five times during the day. He is expected to pass his time in a religious or pious mood. The candidate has, during these six days, to pass his time in prayers during the five Gahs and to observe all the observances of saying the grace at meals, etc. He is not to come in contact with any non-Zoroastrian.
The five periods for the performance of the ceremony
The Bui ceremony is performed five times every day. It is performed at the commencement of each of the five Gahs or periods of the day which correspond to a certain extent, with the canonical hours of the Christians.
18 These periods are the following
(1) Hawan. It begins from early morning when the stars begin to cease to appear, and lasts up to 12 O?Clock when the sun comes overhead. Literally, it means the time when the ceremony of pounding the Haoma is performed.
(2) Rapithwin. It runs from 12 o?clock noon to 3 p. m. Literally, it means the pith (pithwa) or the middle part of the day (ayar?).
(3) Uzerin. It runs from 3 p.m. to the time when the stars begin to appear. Literally, it means the time of the advancement of the sun.
(4) Aiwisruthrem. It runs from nightfall to midnight.
(5) Ushahin. It runs from midnight to dawn when the stars begin to cease to appear.The priest performs the Kusti-padyab (i.e., performs ablutions and unties and puts on the Kusti again with the recital of a prayer).
The Bui ceremony in an Atash Behram A priest who has performed the Khub ceremony, performs the Kusti-padyab at the commencement of each new Gah, i.e., the period of the day, as described above, and then recites his Farziyat, i.e., the necessary prayers, which are the Srosh-baj, the Gah according to the time of the day, and the Khwarshed and Mihr Niyayeshes during the day periods, i.e., the above named first three gahs.During the night-periods which form the last two gahs, the Khwarshed and Mihr Niyayeshes are replaced by Srosh Yasht (Yasna 57) and Srosh Hadokht. He then goes into the sacred chamber, puts on white gloves, places some frankincense over the Sacred Fire, and then the M?chi, i.e., the six pieces of sandalwood as said above. If sandalwood is not obtainable, six pieces of any other kind of clean good wood will do. The six pieces are placed over the fire from three different positions, thus
http//www.avesta.org/ritual/rcc3.htm
As far as the old and new testament
http//liberalforum.org/liberalforum/index.php?showtopic=52214&hl=bigmo
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@ Bigmo
The analogy I gave is completely valid because you are not
challenging a hadith, you are challenging an established
practice. And in order to challenge the validity of an established
practice you will have to provide evidence that contradicts the
uniformity of that practice throughout its history. Everyone has
been praying 5 prayers since the time of the prophet. If you are
claiming that this is not true, then your the one who have to provide
evidence for your claim.Also, the question you asked about the beggar is itself
answered by my question to you Do you want the Quran
to give you a specific time to pray Zuhr? Just like you
expect the Quran to tell you to give $10 to the beggar? -
@ Bigmo
The analogy I gave is completely valid because you are not
challenging a hadith, you are challenging an established
practice. And in order to challenge the validity of an established
practice you will have to provide evidence that contradicts the
uniformity of that practice throughout its history. Everyone has
been praying 5 prayers since the time of the prophet. If you are
claiming that this is not true, then your the one who have to provide
evidence for your claim.Also, the question you asked about the beggar is itself
answered by my question to you Do you want the Quran
to give you a specific time to pray Zuhr? Just like you
expect the Quran to tell you to give $10 to the beggar?No but the Sunnah does give specific time. You still did not answer this question
What evidence you have that God only accepts the 5 prayers with the rika'as that Muslims pray? And why is the Koran, Torah and Gospel all united in not giving specific times and specific rituals for prayers yet all speak of prostration, bowing, kneeling and praying with humility and doing so consistently? Why is it only this Sunnah which spells it like that? If it is so important how you pray why didn't the Koran inform us of that?
I don't know but I see this argument going in circles. If you want to pray that way then do so, nobody is stopping you. But don't say that its the only way. Maybe it is from the prophet, but how do you know that its the only way to pray?
A Zoroastrian might say these prayer rituals are our Sunnah stolen by the Arabs. After all the Persians were very much involved in Islamic history. Bukhari, Muslim, Ibn Kathir, Tbari, Abu Dawood are all Persian speaking. So is Al Nisa'i and all these are Sunni hadith and tafsir icons.
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But that is not what I am saying. I never said that God only accepts prayers
at those specific times, and in any specified format. I am sure He is more generous
then my faculty essay guidelines. That is not the point.You're the one who raised an objection that the established practice of 5 contact
prayers is dubious. All I am pointing out that you have not provided evidence for
your claim. In order to do so (and I remind you) you will have to prove an inconsistency
within the historical record of the practice of 5 regular prayers a day.Salaam
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peace bro truthseeker,
You pre-empted my follow up strike with the "salat" is singular comment. ;D I primarily asked about his "from" and "until" statement first as it didn't make any sense to me so was intruiged by the reasoning. Of course, I realised later there was no reasoning except attempting to justify a preconceived notion.
As a side note, you may be interested to know bro Anwar (progod) brought up this point in the past, e.g. singular can represent the plural, but he never cited any examples in AQ where the single is used and the plural is meant, and was making the comment on theoretical grammar/linguistic possibilities. Of course, both you and I know AQ is precision par excellence when it comes to its word usage.peace c0de,
I will briefly cover the points you made before ending our discussion.
The burden of proof is on you
Wrong. If someone makes a claim, they should bring the proof. If we both believe in Al Quran, this is our common ground and our criterion. If you make a claim about AQ, then bring proof. If I make a claim about AQ, I bring proof.
Traditional Muslims readily admit their ritual prayer is not in AQ, hence their favourite question of asking those who follow a Quran based islam where it is in AQ. They dont understand the assumption in their question. It is ironic to think that they have identified the problem but are oblivious to it at the same time. Reminds me of the wisdom if someone is unaware they are in darkness they will never seek the light.
You could only make that claim if verse 4103
did not exist. Since it already makes it clear that there
are fixed timesFirstly, it is not a claim, it is a FACT salat is singular in 1778.
Secondly, you do realise 4103 says "timed kitab/prescript/decree/book". It does not say times (plural), if this was what you were implying.1 in the Mourning and then a break...
2 then again starting from Mid Day
3 And Going on until night.. and then another breakOf course it does not say what those exact times are
because the world is a sphere and the timings for each
section of the planet are different. You expect the Quran
to tell you that Zuhr is at 1230pm?This is a perfect example of your "reasoning" ability.
I strongly recommend reading the past discussions. I'm out.
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But that is not what I am saying. I never said that God only accepts prayers
at those specific times, and in any specified format. I am sure He is more generous
then my faculty essay guidelines. That is not the point.You're the one who raised an objection that the established practice of 5 contact
prayers is dubious. All I am pointing out that you have not provided evidence for
your claim. In order to do so (and I remind you) you will have to prove an inconsistency
within the historical record of the practice of 5 regular prayers a day.Salaam
I never said they were dubious. Some here have said that but they never have been able to prove that and often remain silent when asked a few question. Thats the whole point, we really do not know. But I tend to take my information from the Koran, Torah and Gospel and I have not see these 5 prayers. Maybe it is Sunnah and maybe its not. I know some tradition Jewish rituals also have 5 times a day prayers. So maybe and maybe not. But its not in the Torah or Gospel. The Talmud is not confirmed by the Koran and in some verses the Koran codemned its teachings and so did Jesus in the Gospel, read Mark 7. So I do not generally rely on the Talmud as I do with the Torah. Why would God leave such an information in 3 scriptures if it was that important how we pray and when?
Anyways I don't see the point of following the Koran if you think these rituals are obligatory and binding on everyone. Its contradictory to say you follow the Koran yet you ignore this
Righteousness does not consist in whether you turn your faces towards the east or the west; what is righteous is to believe in Allah and the last day, and the angels, and the Book, and the messengers; to spend of your substance, out of love for Him, for your kin, for orphans, for the needy, for the wayfarer, for those who ask, and for the ransom of slaves; to be steadfast in prayer, and practise regular charity; to fulfil the contracts which you have made; and to be firm and patient, in pain (or suffering) and adversity, and in times of war. Such as do so are people of truth. Such are the Allah-fearing. (Al-Baqara, 177)
Ask any Sunni and they will tell you without Qibla there is no Salat.
-
@ Wakas
Wakas + Bigmo
Salaam guys
@ Wakas
Firstly, it is not a claim, it is a FACT salat is singular in 1778.
I beg to differ
017.078
YUSUFALI Establish regular prayers - at the sun's decline till the darkness of the night...
PICKTHAL Establish worship at the going down of the sun until the dark of night...
SHAKIR Keep up prayer from the declining of the sun till the darkness of the night...http//www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/017.qmt.html
So no, it is not singular. This should put to rest your objection.
Not only that, but consider the words of the verse, it is impossible for a single prayer
to cover the time frame mentioned. The sun starts declining right after mid-day (noon)
and the darkness of the night comes after Maghrib i.e. Isha. That covers a period of
several hours. So your claim that the verse is talking about a single prayer can not be true
in any case.If someone makes a claim, they should bring the proof.
Exactly. You're the one making the claim that the practice of 5 established prayers
is misguided, so prove it. Was there a time when this practice was not standard?@ Bigmo
You keep assuming I believe in things which I do not believe in. I am not a sunni.
And I am not questioning your faith. I am merely questioning the assertion that
the established practice of 5 contact prayers is misguided. You might not have
said that it was dubious, but it has been implied by others here. -
@ Wakas
Wakas + Bigmo
Salaam guys
@ Wakas
I beg to differ
017.078
YUSUFALI Establish regular prayers - at the sun's decline till the darkness of the night...
PICKTHAL Establish worship at the going down of the sun until the dark of night...
SHAKIR Keep up prayer from the declining of the sun till the darkness of the night...http//www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/017.qmt.html
So no, it is not singular. This should put to rest your objection.
Not only that, but consider the words of the verse, it is impossible for a single prayer
to cover the time frame mentioned. The sun starts declining right after mid-day (noon)
and the darkness of the night comes after Maghrib i.e. Isha. That covers a period of
several hours. So your claim that the verse is talking about a single prayer can not be true
in any case.Exactly. You're the one making the claim that the practice of 5 established prayers
is misguided, so prove it. Was there a time when this practice was not standard?@ Bigmo
You keep assuming I believe in things which I do not believe in. I am not a sunni.
And I am not questioning your faith. I am merely questioning the assertion that
the established practice of 5 contact prayers is misguided. You might not have
said that it was dubious, but it has been implied by others here.Those who say the 5 prayers are misguided can never prove that. Following the Koran means you accept pluralism whether you like that or not.
