The Prayer Issue Revived

belH

All I am pointing out that you have not provided evidence for
your claim. In order to do so (and I remind you) you will have to prove an inconsistency
within the historical record of the practice of 5 regular prayers a day.

Peace C0de

Per 3-7, believers should follow well-established meaning verses in order to know their obligated duties. Now, I know that Sunset, night, and Dawn prayers are commended in a very well-established verses. But on the other hand, Zuher and Aser time are not mentioned in well-established verses to be as time for prayers.

11-114 is a well established verse
And you shall hold the communion at the two edges of the day, during the night. The good deeds take away the bad. This is a reminder to those who remember.
11114

THEREFORE, 1778 Calls for prayer AT Sunset, Night, and Dawn (after all Quranic verses will have to match with each others !)

Therefore, the Middle prayer that God ordered the believer to guard is the Night Prayer (2-23;
Here is a well established verses that prove That

731 O you who are covered with your garments.
732 Stand the night except for a little.
733 Half of it, or a little less than that.
734 Or a little more, and arrange the Qur?an in its arrangement.
735 We will place upon you a saying which is heavy.
736 The time of the night is more effective and stronger in reciting ( &#1575.

From the above well established verses, The night prayer is the Westa Prayer. Now can you bring me a well established verse that says Aser prayer is the prayer that is more stronger and effective than the other prayers including the night prayer?

Moreover, please note the following verse

Qur?aan 2458
O you who believe, permission must be requested by your servants and the children who have not attained puberty. This is to be done in three instances-before the Dawn Prayer, at noon when you change your clothes to rest, and after the Night Prayer. These are three private times for you. At other times, it is not wrong for you or them to mingle with one another. Allah thus clarifies the revelations for you. Allah is Omniscient, Most Wise.

Now, please note the red colored words and the blue ones. If there is a prayer during noon, why God did not mention (in blue word section) as He did when speaking about the Dawn and night (red colored section)?

May God lead us to the truth.
Peace

Wakas

peace,

Try checking the Arabic of 1778. If you did you would see it is "salat" (singular). FACT.

First you did not bother to read past discussion. Now it is revealed you do not even bother to check the basic Arabic!

You are obviously confused by "at the going down of the sun". The Arabic is "dulooki alshshams" and this phrase is defined as "sunset" by the Classical Arabic dictionary of Lane's Lexicon. This is further proven by cross referencing the timing of other verses discussing timing. See past discussions for detail.

You're the one making the claim that the practice of 5 established prayers
is misguided, so prove it. Was there a time when this practice was not standard?

Let me correct your inaccurate wording. If I am making any claims it would be the following

There is no 5 daily salat timings in Al Quran.

There is no 3 daily salat timings in Al Quran.

salat meaning prayer cannot be proven in Al Quran.

Al Quran disproves salat meaning prayer.

There are no examples of any prophet/messenger/anyone performing the Traditional Muslim prayer in Al Quran.

sujud meaning physical prostration cannot be proven in Al Quran.

Al Quran disproves sujud meaning physical prostration.

ruku meaning physical bowing cannot be proven in Al Quran.

Al Quran disproves ruku meaning physical bowing.

Of course, bear in mind the above is after years of study, and if someone said the above to me at the start of my journey I would have not believed it and opted to continue to seek the truth for myself and see what happend. I recommend the same approach to you.

unknownuser

Salaams All,

Of course, bear in mind the above is after years of study, and if someone said the above to me at the start of my journey I would have not believed it and opted to continue to seek the truth for myself and see what happend. I recommend the same approach to you.

word for word same goes for me, and i am sure quite a few more of us here.

peace

c0de

@ All

Salaam guys, I will combine responses to everyone, since this
forum apparently does not have a multi-quote option.

The equivalent of the word "salat" in English is worship, and there is
no plural of this word in Arabic, just as there is no plural of the word
"worship" in English. This is according to people who I have asked, if
you can provide more detail on this issue, please be my guest.

But for now, the case that verse 1778 refers to multiple prayers stands
because the time-period mentioned in the verse covers many hours.
Observe

You are obviously confused by "at the going down of the sun". The Arabic is "dulooki alshshams" and this phrase is defined as "sunset" by the Classical Arabic dictionary of Lane's Lexicon.

The phrase literally means the declining of the Sun, i.e. it is
in the proccess of going down (has not set already). This, by definition,
can not apply to the time of Maghrib, because by the time Maghrib
comes the Sun is not visible on the horizon. Every translation
and explanation of these words has included the time period of at least Asr
(and some have even include the time period of Zuhr, including the copy of
the Quran I have).

I do not know what dictionary you are using here, but it clearly lacks detail.
Plus its not easy to translate the entire meaning of phrases in a foreign language.
Just saying this particular phrase only applies to "sunset" is not adequate.

But on the other hand, Zuhr and Aser time are not mentioned in well-established verses to be as time for prayers.

Here you go bro

030.018
YUSUFALI Yea, to Him be praise, in the heavens and on earth; and in the late afternoon and when the day begins to decline.
PICKTHAL Unto Him be praise in the heavens and the earth! - and at the sun's decline and in the noonday.
SHAKIR And to Him belongs praise in the heavens and the earth, and at nightfall and when you are at midday.

There is no 5 daily salat timings in Al Quran.

Did I ever say there were? What I am saying is that the 5 daily timings
for the 5 daily contact prayers are covered in the words of the Quran
which describe the time-period during which Muslims establish their prayers.
Therefore, the popularity and historical uniformity of the practice becomes
proof that this practice is (and always was) a genuine instruction of the Prophet.

Of course, bear in mind the above is after years of study, and if someone said the above to me at the start of my journey I would have not believed it and opted to continue to seek the truth for myself and see what happend. I recommend the same approach to you.

Do you always take such a condescending attitude towards your opposition? First of all
why are you assuming that this is the first time I have encountered these views?
Moreover, why are you implying here that I am a novice and you are some master?

Neither of us knows the level of knowledge of the other. So lets keep remarks such
as this to ourselves shall we? Thanks. (I am not too impressed that this is the type
of attitude that I am encountering here from a "moderator", on an Islamic forum no less!
this, btw, is the third time I have encountered a pointlessly patronizing post from you Wakas)

Salaam

Bigmo

@ All

Salaam guys, I will combine responses to everyone, since this
forum apparently does not have a multi-quote option.

The equivalent of the word "salat" in English is worship, and there is
no plural of this word in Arabic, just as there is no plural of the word
"worship" in English. This is according to people who I have asked, if
you can provide more detail on this issue, please be my guest.

But for now, the case that verse 1778 refers to multiple prayers stands
because the time-period mentioned in the verse covers many hours.
Observe

The phrase literally means the declining of the Sun, i.e. it is
in the proccess of going down (has not set already). This, by definition,
can not apply to the time of Maghrib, because by the time Maghrib
comes the Sun is not visible on the horizon. Every translation
and explanation of these words has included the time period of at least Asr
(and some have even include the time period of Zuhr, including the copy of
the Quran I have).

I do not know what dictionary you are using here, but it clearly lacks detail.
Plus its not easy to translate the entire meaning of phrases in a foreign language.
Just saying this particular phrase only applies to "sunset" is not adequate.

Here you go bro

030.018
YUSUFALI Yea, to Him be praise, in the heavens and on earth; and in the late afternoon and when the day begins to decline.
PICKTHAL Unto Him be praise in the heavens and the earth! - and at the sun's decline and in the noonday.
SHAKIR And to Him belongs praise in the heavens and the earth, and at nightfall and when you are at midday.

Did I ever say there were? What I am saying is that the 5 daily timings
for the 5 daily contact prayers are covered in the words of the Quran
which describe the time-period during which Muslims establish their prayers.
Therefore, the popularity and historical uniformity of the practice becomes
proof that this practice is (and always was) a genuine instruction of the Prophet.

Do you always take such a condescending attitude towards your opposition? First of all
why are you assuming that this is the first time I have encountered these views?
Moreover, why are you implying here that I am a novice and you are some master?

Neither of us knows the level of knowledge of the other. So lets keep remarks such
as this to ourselves shall we? Thanks. (I am not too impressed that this is the type
of attitude that I am encountering here from a "moderator", on an Islamic forum no less!
this, btw, is the third time I have encountered a pointlessly patronizing post from you Wakas)

Salaam

Instruction of the prophet? Wow!

So tell me is the Qibla also the prophet's instruction?

Pseudo

Peace code,

The equivalent of the word "salat" in English is worship, and there is
no plural of this word in Arabic, just as there is no plural of the word
"worship" in English. This is according to people who I have asked, if
you can provide more detail on this issue, please be my guest.

But for now, the case that verse 1778 refers to multiple prayers stands
because the time-period mentioned in the verse covers many hours.
Observe

The phrase literally means the declining of the Sun, i.e. it is
in the proccess of going down (has not set already).

1778 keep up As-Sal?t to the sun's nearing setting to the night's darkness, and the dawn's Quran, that the dawn's Quran is being witnessed.

This reminds me of vacationing in Mexico watching the sunset on the Pacific Ocean.

http//www.8thelementdiving.com/images/puerto_vallarta_sunset.jpg

Read ?Living Buddha, Living Christ? ? an easy read while on the beach. A main principle of the book was to be continuously mindful of the current moment; so many get caught up in the past and worrying about the future they let ?The Moment? pass by and forget to be thankful.

Matthew 634 Be not therefore anxious for the morrow, for the morrow shall be anxious for its own things

4103 So if you accomplished As-Sal?t, so remember God standing, and sitting, and on your sides, so if you became secured, so keep up As-Sal?t, that As-Sal?t is on the believers a book appointed/scheduled/prescribed.

As-Sal?t ? to be continuously ?mindful? even when looking at little defenseless creatures?

2719 So he smiled wondering from its word, and he said "My Lord, inspire me that I be grateful your blessing which you blessed on me and on my parents, and that I do righteous deeds You accept it, and enter me with Your mercy in Your worshippers the righteous.

For we too are little defenseless creatures, living on a tiny spec?

http//homepages.wmich.edu/~korista/ss-images/earth-moon_fromSaturn.jpg

This pale, blue dot (a dot of light appearing above and to the left of Saturn's bright outer rings, with enlarged view inside upper left box) is the Earth (the Moon is seen as a 'bulge' on Earth) as observed from Saturn (it's outer ice rings seen here) by the Cassini orbiter, 1.4 billion km distant. In the cold, vast, empty void of space - that dot is all we've got.

Peace

c0de

@ Bigmo

From whencesoever Thou startest forth, turn Thy face in the direction of the sacred Mosque;
that is indeed the truth from the Lord. And Allah is not unmindful of what ye do.
2.149

@ Psuedo

5 standard prayers and constant mindfulness are not mutually exclusive bro

belH

@ All

Salaam guys, I will combine responses to everyone,

Peace
I think you forgot to comment on mine

Peace C0de

Per 3-7, believers should follow well-established meaning verses in order to know their obligated duties. Now, I know that Sunset, night, and Dawn prayers are commended in a very well-established verses. But on the other hand, Zuher and Aser time are not mentioned in well-established verses to be as time for prayers.

11-114 is a well established verse
And you shall hold the communion at the two edges of the day, during the night. The good deeds take away the bad. This is a reminder to those who remember.
11114

THEREFORE, 1778 Calls for prayer AT Sunset, Night, and Dawn (after all Quranic verses will have to match with each others !)

Therefore, the Middle prayer that God ordered the believer to guard is the Night Prayer (2-23;
Here is a well established verses that prove That

731 O you who are covered with your garments.
732 Stand the night except for a little.
733 Half of it, or a little less than that.
734 Or a little more, and arrange the Qur?an in its arrangement.
735 We will place upon you a saying which is heavy.
736 The time of the night is more effective and stronger in reciting ( &#1575.

From the above well established verses, The night prayer is the Westa Prayer. Now can you bring me a well established verse that says Aser prayer is the prayer that is more stronger and effective than the other prayers including the night prayer?

Moreover, please note the following verse

Qur?aan 2458
O you who believe, permission must be requested by your servants and the children who have not attained puberty. This is to be done in three instances-before the Dawn Prayer, at noon when you change your clothes to rest, and after the Night Prayer. These are three private times for you. At other times, it is not wrong for you or them to mingle with one another. Allah thus clarifies the revelations for you. Allah is Omniscient, Most Wise.

Now, please note the red colored words and the blue ones. If there is a prayer during noon, why God did not mention (in blue word section) as He did when speaking about the Dawn and night (red colored section)?

May God lead us to the truth.
Peace

c0de

Hey BelH,

I did comment on yours, maybe you missed it

This was your quote

But on the other hand, Zuhr and Aser time are not mentioned in well-established verses to be as time for prayers.

and this was my response

Here you go bro

030.018
YUSUFALI Yea, to Him be praise, in the heavens and on earth; and in the late afternoon and when the day begins to decline.
PICKTHAL Unto Him be praise in the heavens and the earth! - and at the sun's decline and in the noonday.
SHAKIR And to Him belongs praise in the heavens and the earth, and at nightfall and when you are at midday.

belH

Hey BelH,

I did comment on yours, maybe you missed it

This was your quote

and this was my response

Peace Brother

Is the verse you provided a well established verse in which Salat is called by God?
Brother, can you reread my post and see the well established verses I provided that prove that Prayers are Sunset, Dawn, and night.
If you are trying to guide me to the truth, you need to follow the rule of 3-7; all I see that you are using a non well established verses to cancel out the well established ones; and when you do that, you are having a problem in your heart, according to 3-7.
Peace

belH

Peace code

In the following verse, Why God did not say Noon prayer, as He said for night and Dawn, but instead He says "at Noon When You Change Your Clothes to Rest"

2458
O you who believe, permission must be requested by your servants and the children who have not attained puberty. This is to be done in three instances-before the Dawn Prayer, at noon when you change your clothes to rest, and after the Night Prayer. These are three private times for you. At other times, it is not wrong for you or them to mingle with one another. Allah thus clarifies the revelations for you. Allah is Omniscient, Most Wise.

I believe that God Means what He says, and does not forget to say words; God is the Most Effective Communicator.
God Means what He Says so we do not come in the JD and say that we could not understand His Message.

By the way, can you tell me where did you see a commandment for prayer in the verses you provided as an evidence

030.018
YUSUFALI Yea, to Him be praise, in the heavens and on earth; and in the late afternoon and when the day begins to decline.
PICKTHAL Unto Him be praise in the heavens and the earth! - and at the sun's decline and in the noonday.
SHAKIR And to Him belongs praise in the heavens and the earth, and at nightfall and when you are at midday.

Brother, you need to take God more seriously and never under estimate His ability to communicate, as Suni and Shia do.

All Glories to my Lord, And to Him belongs praise in the heavens and the earth

c0de

By the way, can you tell me where did you see a commandment for prayer in the verses you provided as an evidence

Salam Brother BelH,

What else can you infer from this verse other then a time for prayer?

030.018
YUSUFALI Yea, to Him be praise, in the heavens and on earth; and in the late afternoon and when the day begins to decline.
PICKTHAL Unto Him be praise in the heavens and the earth! - and at the sun's decline and in the noonday.
SHAKIR And to Him belongs praise in the heavens and the earth, and at nightfall and when you are at midday.

If this verse was referring to any general praise to Allah,
then why are these two specific times mentioned?

PeAcE

belH

Salam Brother BelH,

What else can you infer from this verse other then a time for prayer?

If this verse was referring to any general praise to Allah,
then why are these two specific times mentioned?

PeAcE

Peace Brother
What we are debating about is a serious matter; therefore, we need to use very solid verses that is clear in meaning.
In the verse you quoted, there is no command to pray, as in 11-114 and 2-228.

Second, if there is a noon prayer, why it was not mentioned in 24-58 as Dawn and Night.
Third, the middle prayer has to be the night prayer according to 7-1 to 6.

Please rethink and let me know if I'm wrong.
Peace

c0de

Peace Brother
What we are debating about is a serious matter; therefore, we need to use very solid verses that is clear in meaning.
In the verse you quoted, there is no command to pray, as in 11-114 and 2-228.

Second, if there is a noon prayer, why it was not mentioned in 24-58 as Dawn and Night.
Third, the middle prayer has to be the night prayer according to 7-1 to 6.

Please rethink and let me know if I'm wrong.
Peace

Bro I do not have any authority to tell you that you are wrong.
I can not even tell you that I am right. This is not about right or wrong,
as we are both trying to find out what Allah wants us to do.

For me, this verse clearly talks about prayer, as this is the only logical
reason for those two specific times being mentioned. God is saying that
Praise is due to Him at those two specific times. As for for why there are
two separate verse which cover all the 5 times, Allah knows best. Maybe
in the beginning there were 2 prayers, and then 3 more were added?

I do not rely on the stories of the hadith, so I do not really give the whole
Miraj stories much credibility. The whole 50 prayers idea seems a little wierd to me.
So it is possible that 5 prayers were revealed piece-meal to the Muslims. And
this would explain why two separate verses cover those 5 times.

But what I do not want to do is to question this practice solely based on a suspicion
and reject it and stop praying. Because bro, I hate the majority's understanding in
most cases as well, but before I reject the majority's opinion, I need to have a reason
to reject it. And so far, there is no other reason for me to reject this practice other
then laziness and being glad that I don't have to pray 5 times in the day. Because
there is no evidence to suggest to me why this practice is dubious.

This is why I have continually asked for any REAL evidence to suggest that there
was ever a time that 5 was not the established number of prayers in the day.
As that would really make me question the whole idea myself too.

p.s. Dude you have a wicked Avatar pic!

PeAcE

truthseeker11

Peace Belh,

Sometimes you contradict yourself and it is surprising from an intellectual person like yourself. On one hand you say that the verse quoted by code does not mention "salaat", so it is not about salaat. On the other hand you quote verses that do not mention "salaat" AT ALL, and then you say they are about salaat. This can only be classified as intellectual dishonesty. 731-6 talk about studying the qur'aan at night. Do you mean to say that the qur'aan cannot be studied outside salaat? One can stand to read and study the qur'aan outside salaat without any preceding washing.

Similarly 318 is also not about salaat.

Wusta can also mean "best/balanced" and this is the meaning of words derived from WST in almost every occurrence in al-qur'aan. If it was referring to a "middle" salaat then using it after already mentioning "salawaat" in 2238 would be redundant and illogical. It just means to perform our salat in the best/balanced manner and does not refer to an additional salaat as used in al-qur'aan.

Salaat al-wusta has been discussed numerous times on this forum and you can search for the appropriate threads. No further comments from me to you on this issue because repeating something that has already been discussed a zillion times is also a logical fallacy.

truthseeker11

Peace code,

You keep asking for evidence; is the qur'aanic evidence not enough for you? The qur'aan is fully detailed and NOWHERE in the qur'aan is mention of five different times of salaat in one day. God does not play tricks and games. When he talks about salaat He mentions the word "SALAAT". Praise and glorification can be done outside salaat too and when mentioned on their own do not mean salaat. If salat was meant, God would have used the word "salaat".

What is wrong with God mentioning times for His praise? Just because times are mentioned for praising does not mean that praising God refers to salaat.

The current practice of salaat contradicts many clear qur'aanic signs so it CANNOT be right in its entirety, no matter how long it has been practiced that way. The prophet COULD NOT HAVE CONTRADICTED THE QUR'AAN. Just because Christians say Jesus is the son of God and have been saying it for more than 1700 years does not mean it is the truth. Even among sectarians there is no consensus on certain aspects of salaat, including the times. So which of the sectarians is correct and why? They all claim that they have historical evidence supporting their contradictory practices!!

The sajida according to the qur'aan is TO THE CHIN, and not the forehead. Where is the historical evidence of it being to the chin? So does the lack of historical evidence mean that sajida on the forehead is ok just because our forefathers did it even when it clearly contradicts the qur'aan?

The sunni sectarians are quiet in two of their salaats which clearly contradicts the qur'aanic order to use a moderate tone. Where is the historical evidence for always using moderate tone in all salaats? So does the lack of historical evidence mean that reciting the qur'aan quietly is ok just because our forefathers did it even when it clearly contradicts the qur'aan?

The pre-salaat washing according to the qur'aan does not include putting water in mouth and nose. Where is the historical evidence of not putting water in mouth or nose? So does the lack of historical evidence mean that putting water in nose and mouth is ok just because our forefathers did it even when it clearly contradicts the qur'aan?

The ruku according to the qur'aan CANNOT be the bowing position. How can one FALL bowing (3824)? How can you contribute zakat while bowing (555)? It can only mean kneeling or humility according to the qur'aan. Where is the historical evidence of no bowing position in salaat? So does the lack of historical evidence mean that bowing is ok just because our forefathers did it even when it clearly contradicts the qur'aan?

There is no mention of 3 or 4 units/rakaat of salaat in the qur'aan. Where is the historical evidence of all salaats with 1-2 units? So does the lack of historical evidence mean that 3 or 4 units is ok just because our forefathers did it even when it clearly contradicts the qur'aan?

Salaat is for God's remembrance according to the qur'aan. Where is the historical evidence of only God's remembrance in salaat? So does the lack of historical evidence mean that remembring Muhammad and Abraham in salaat is ok just because our forefathers did it even when it clearly contradicts the qur'aan?

There is one verse which is OBLIGATORY TO BE RECITED in salaat according to the qur'aan (17111). No sunni sectarian to my knowledge recites that verse in their salaat. Where is the historical evidence of always reciting that verse in salaat? So does the lack of historical evidence mean that not reciting that verse is ok just because our forefathers did it even when it clearly contradicts the qur'aan?

So why 5 times salaat when it contradicts the qur'aan? When the people messed up and fabricated other aspects of salat, could they not have fabricated this aspect too?

Those who have faith in the qur'aan do not need any historical evidence of the practice of salaat. For them the qur'aan is enough as evidence. The practice of salaat could easily have been tampered with shortly after the death of the prophet and just because it has been practiced a certain way by some people for more than 1300 years does not mean that is the right way, especially when some aspects clearly contradict the qur'aan.

Even for those who do not have faith, there is historical and non-qur'aanic evidence that the practice of salaat has been tampered with. For example, according to the shia sectarians, 3 times salat per day is ok, because they say it is ok to combine the zuhr and asar salaats and maghrib and isha salaats, thus basically condoning 3 times salaat per day. Where did that come from? Could that not be evidence that the number of salaats per day has been tampered with?

Also consider the following evidence of the sunni hadeeth

Bukhari Vol.1, Book 10, Number 507 Narrated Ghailan Anas bin Malik (A Sahabi) said, "I do not find (now-a-days) things as they were (practised) at the time of the Prophet." Somebody said "The prayer (is as it was)". Anas said, "Have you not done in the prayer what you have done?" Bukhari Vol.1, Book 10, Number 508 Narrated Az-Zuhri that he visited Anas bin Malik at Damascus and found him weeping and asked him why he was weeping. He replied, "I do not know anything which I used to know during the lifetime of Allah's Apostle except this prayer which is being lost (not being offered as it should be)."

The comments, "Have you not done in the prayer what you have done?", and the "Lost Prayer" indicate that something went wrong with the salaat soon after the prophet's death.

Also consider the following historical evidences (quoted from Dr. Shabbir)

Khaizran spent a fortune on her project and distributed one million gold coins and 65 million silver coins among her subjects to propagate the 'canonized' Namaaz. References are given in the next heading.

Less than 5% Muslims "perform" Namaaz and they keep announcing their prayers. No one can say or says, "I have established Salaat." Yet, most Muslims keep arguing about Namaaz.

Experiment Call a random gathering of Muslims anywhere for Namaaz under completely unexpected circumstances. You will notice almost all of them joining the lines, most of them without Wudhu (Ablution)!

What Exactly Was NAMAAZ (Ritual Salaat) As far as I have been able to analytically search our history and Hadith, following was the probable situation in the lifetime of the exalted Prophet and Sahaba Kiraam.

? Ritual prayer or Namaaz was a small part of Aqamatis-Salaat, i.e. establishing the System that facilitates the following of Divine Commands.

? The ritual prayer was always congregational.

? Women and men both formed this congregation, women on the right side of men.

? The frequency and timing of the congregations were determined by the State as needed. It was never fixed as five times a day ritual.

? Namaaz was performed with the Imam (Central or local government official) reciting some verses from the Qur'an relevant to the situation at hand as the congregation listened to the Imam. Then the Imam would lead two units of prayers standing.

? Masjid was not a temple of worship. It was the Assembly, the School, the Municipality, the Parliament and the Government House. So, after that recitation, the leader would discuss real issues about the community, entertain questions, present bills, announce decisions of the Shura (Counsel) and the Assembly would legislate. People came up with their ideas for betterment of the society. Masjid was also the place where the leader was elected.

(Some references on the above two headings *** Haroon Wa Baramikatil Faras by Sheikhul Ifta Salman bin Abu Qasim Baghdadi. Vol 1 pg 31-55 *** Meezan-il-Faris by Hujjatullah Abdul Qadir Ali Al-Moosvi pg 249-261 ***Takmilatil Lughatal 'Ain 'Urfa by Al-Ustaz Jalaluddin Al-Ash'ari on Imam Al-Khalil ibn Ahmad Shikoh Tabrezi vol 2 pg 3-5 *** Mujahid-al-Munafiq Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal by Abdul Muhsin bin Mullah Ali Al-Qari, pg 67-135)

Just because our faorefathers did things a certain way does not make them right. God has clearly warned us against this in the qur'aan

2170 And if they are told ?Follow what God has sent down,? they say ?No, we will follow what we found our fathers doing!? What if their fathers did not understand anything and were not guided?

3121 And if they are told ?Follow that which God has sent down.? They say ?No, we will follow what we found our fathers doing.? What if the devil had been leading them to the agony of Hell?

Your excuse is the same one as made by those who came before you as mentioned in the qur'aan

770 They said ?Have you come to us to serve God alone and abandon what our fathers had served? Bring us what you promise if you are of the truthful ones!?

Peace

c0de

Salaam Truthseeker

Before I begin, I would like to remind you that I am not here to justify the different
methods of prayer. I am not a Sunni, or a Shia or part of any sect. So the method
of prayer is not what is being debated here, but the 5 daily timings.

So why 5 times salaat when it contradicts the qur'aan? When the people messed up and fabricated other aspects of salat, could they not have fabricated this aspect too?

Well, sure they could have... the question is did they.
Thats like me saying the sky could have been purple a 1000 years ago.
Thats the easy part... the hard part is actually providing some evidence
historically that it was.

there is historical and non-qur'aanic evidence that the practice of salaat has been tampered with. For example, according to the shia sectarians, 3 times salat per day is ok, because they say it is ok to combine the zuhr and asar salaats and maghrib and isha salaats, thus basically condoning 3 times salaat per day. Where did that come from? Could that not be evidence that the number of salaats per day has been tampered with?

Well not really. Combination of prayers by the shia is not really proof enough
to say the whole practice is dubious. They still acknowledge the 5 stated times.