The Prayer Issue Revived
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Truthseeker + Ahmed
Salaam brothers
@ Truthseeker
Nowhere are we asked to face mecca in the qur'aan
And from whatsoever place you come forth, turn your face towards the Sacred Mosque;
and surely it is the very truth from your Lord, and Allah is not at all heedless of what you do.
Verse 2149The word used is "hamd" meaning praise and not "salaat". You are the one who earlier said this refers to salaat, thus twisting God's word. Why can't we praise God at certain times? Just because a time is mentioned does not make "hamd"/praise same as salaat. Hamd/praise can be done outside salaat too. God does not play word games. Where He means salaat He uses the word "salaat".
This is an invalid argument. The act of praise is included
in the act of salat. The first words that a Muslim utters in Salat
are words of praise.And I did not say the word salat was used, I said the
times for Zuhr and Asr are clearly mentioned in that verse
and therefore their practice has a clear foundation in the Quran.How can it be two different salaats when combined into one?
Don't believe me? This is from a Shia source
"The Shi'ah acknowledge the five obligatory daily prayers. However,
they frequently combine the Zuhr and 'Asr prayers by offering them
consecutively"http//74.125.95.132/search?q=cachesjA2LZmfcCAJwww.al-islam.org/nutshell/redirect.asp%3Furll%3D/nutshell/files/combine.pdf+combining+prayers+islam+Quran&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2
The act of combining prayers is done for convenience, and
not because they do not recognize Zuhr and Asr distinctly.He clearly says "do not be loud nor speak in a low/soft voice but a way in between those", which can only mean a moderate tone.
ATHQAAN DOES NOT MEAN FACES BUT MEANS CHINS. Faces is "wajooh" (plural) and "wajh" (singular) as used in the qur'aan.
In the first case you are right, in the second, you are wrong.
The chin is still part of the person's face so the translations for
that verse are correct.@ Ahmed
This is WRONG. In fact, it's necessary to note that believers of "Shia" Islaam actually believe in observing salaat THREE times per day as well, and guess what these three times are? Yep, that's right, brother (1) morning, (2) afternoon, and (3) night. Some smaller groups of them believe in 5 daily salaat observances, but they only perform them during these three periods, therefore consolidating two prayers into one... The only groups that firmly believe in the 5 daily salaat observances are those who follow the guidance of the hadith and sunna writings ordaining them. Nothing else even mentions 5 prayers at all, and the Qur'aan clearly speaks of three distinct times...
I provided a link above to a shia site which clearly stated that they
recognize Zuhr and Asr as separate prayers.Where is the proof that the early Muslims prayed 5 times per day? The only thing that supports this doctrine is the sunna, something that has admittedly been SEVERELY CORRUPTED, FORGED, AND (in many cases) COMPLETELY FABRICATED, especially when it came to adopting pagan rituals... The 5 daily prayers were the practice of the Zoroastrians and certain Sabian sects, not the Muslims. That's why none of the scriptures mention 5 daily prayers for any of the Abrahamic systems; instead, they all promote THREE... So, where is your proof that the ancient submitters believed in 5 daily prayers? And were these three salaat observances ordained by G-d, or were they pagan traditions inherited from their forefathers?
Bro you are contradicting yourself. First you reject a practice
because it is mentioned in corrupted texts (sunnah) and then you
cite the previous scriptures (which are also corrupted) to support
your own argument.The proof that the early Muslims prayed 5 times a day is that
all the times are mentioned in the Quran. Plus the
complete uniformity of this belief throughout the Muslim lands.PeAcE
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Peace c0de,
Bro you are contradicting yourself. First you reject a practice
because it is mentioned in corrupted texts (sunnah) and then you
cite the previous scriptures (which are also corrupted) to support
your own argument.I mentioned the Torah (i.e. the Tanakh and the Mishna), and I didn't say anything regarding it being corrupted. Where did you get this idea from?! The modern Torah is NOT corrupted, it has just been mistranslated in certain aspects. Reading it in the ancient Hebrew or Aramaic forms removes many of the misconceptions, especially when it comes to the Written Torah... This is not the case with the Sunna, which is fabricated and forged. You can't compare the Sunna to the Torah, the word of G-d, which is not fabricated.
The proof that the early Muslims prayed 5 times a day is that
all the times are mentioned in the Quran. Plus the
complete uniformity of this belief throughout the Muslim lands.The 5 times are NOT mentioned in the Qur'aan, which I already explained to you. The words "alsalaat" are mentioned in reference to THREE distinct times (1) faajr, (2) esha, and (3) wusta. The other names and times of these other two prayers are not in the Qur'aan at all, and they're only mentioned in the hadith and sunna writings.
Peace,
Ahmad
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Peace c0de,
I mentioned the Torah (i.e. the Tanakh and the Mishna), and I didn't say anything regarding it being corrupted. Where did you get this idea from?! The modern Torah is NOT corrupted, it has just been mistranslated in certain aspects. Reading it in the ancient Hebrew or Aramaic forms removes many of the misconceptions, especially when it comes to the Written Torah... This is not the case with the Sunna, which is fabricated and forged. You can't compare the Sunna to the Torah, the word of G-d, which is not fabricated.
I somewhat agree with this.... church fathers considered the old testament to be highly authentic and valid way before they considered the new testament to be. There are 3 different sources for old testament(septugint...hebrew masoretic... and I forget other) different groups use different ones....like in the hebrew masoretic, the word "THE messiah" doesn't appear but in the septuagint it does..depending on what you believe will be what you choose....chritians usually choose septuagint, while jews aim for hebrew masoretic which I don't care for either really..and depending if the translator is a christian or a jew will also affect how they translate it...only thing I have problem with is why Jews kicked some parts out of the torah for bad reasons...christian bible's torah and jewish tanach doesn't have the same amount of books and chapters.
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@ Ahmed Bilal
I mentioned the Torah (i.e. the Tanakh and the Mishna), and I didn't say anything regarding it being corrupted. Where did you get this idea from?! The modern Torah is NOT corrupted, it has just been mistranslated in certain aspects. Reading it in the ancient Hebrew or Aramaic forms removes many of the misconceptions, especially when it comes to the Written Torah... This is not the case with the Sunna, which is fabricated and forged. You can't compare the Sunna to the Torah, the word of G-d, which is not fabricated.
Bro the scholarly view is that the Tanakh was compiled over a thousand
years after Moses was born! Moses was alive somewhere between 1400-1200 BCE
and the Tanakh according to the academics who have studied it was compiled
200 BCE - 200 CE. That is an IMMENSE time between the revelation and the codification
of this text. So the Tanakh, can not be more reliable then the hadith in any case.
If you reject one for being inaccurate, you can not accept another to
base your argument on.The 5 times are NOT mentioned in the Qur'aan, which I already explained to you. The words "alsalaat" are mentioned in reference to THREE distinct times (1) faajr, (2) esha, and (3) wusta. The other names and times of these other two prayers are not in the Qur'aan at all, and they're only mentioned in the hadith and sunna writings.
When did I say the word "salat" was used with reference to the 5 times in the Quran?
I said that the 5 times themselves were clearly mentioned. Also, I said that the times for Zuhr and Asr
are mentioned along with the commandment to give praise to Allah at those times. And since the act of Salat
includes the giving of praise to God, therefore, all 5 times of the established prayers are covered in the Quran.
Which basically means that the established ritual of Fajr, Zuhr, Asr, Magrib and Isha has a foundation in the Quran.
And this is why the practice of 5 daily prayers is confirmed by the uniformity of this practice throughout the Muslim lands.PeAcE
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I somewhat agree with this.... church fathers considered the old testament to be highly authentic and valid way before they considered the new testament to be. There are 3 different sources for old testament(septugint...hebrew masoretic... and I forget other) different groups use different ones....like in the hebrew masoretic, the word "THE messiah" doesn't appear but in the septuagint it does..depending on what you believe will be what you choose....chritians usually choose septuagint, while jews aim for hebrew masoretic which I don't care for either really..and depending if the translator is a christian or a jew will also affect how they translate it...only thing I have problem with is why Jews kicked some parts out of the torah for bad reasons...christian bible's torah and jewish tanach doesn't have the same amount of books and chapters.
Yeah, you're right, brother... I don't really agree with everything in the Septuagint because I think many parts of it have been mistranslated, especially by the Greek and Roman Christian groups who tried to blend the Tanakh with the "New Testament". I definately prefer the Hebrew Masoretic writings. In my opinion, it's much more authentic. Plus, it's older, and many parts of the Septuagint are just translations of the Masoretic text... Regarding the Jews kicking certain books out of the Tanakh, it all depends on traditional readings. Some copies of the Tanakh contain more books than others. Plus, Christians did the same things, and they destroyed literally HUNDREDS of books that conflicted with their Trinitarian teachings and beliefs concerning the mashiach...
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Peace c0de,
Bro the scholarly view is that the Tanakh was compiled over a thousand
years after Moses was born! Moses was alive somewhere between 1400-1200 BCE
and the Tanakh according to the academics who have studied it was compiled
200 BCE - 200 CE. That is an IMMENSE time between the revelation and the codification
of this text. So the Tanakh, can not be more reliable then the hadith in any case.
If you reject one for being inaccurate, you can not accept another to
base your argument on.Ummm... Who said the Tanakh was written by Moses?! The Written and Oral Torah is the only book directly related to Moses' teachings. The other books were written by a series of Jewish prophets and scribes, many of who lived long after Moses was already dead... If you go anywhere in the world, the Written Torah and the Mishna are UNCHANGED after thousands of years. The people have the same text, the same letters, and everything else is completely identical. This is NOT the case with the hadith and sunna, which is completely different among different regions, different sects, and different Islaamic scholars. The Torah is NOT inaccurate, while the hadith and sunna writings ARE inaccurate.
When did I say the word "salat" was used with reference to the 5 times in the Quran?
I said that the 5 times themselves were clearly mentioned. Also, I said that the times for Zuhr and Asr
are mentioned along with the commandment to give praise to Allah at those times. And since the act of Salat
includes the giving of praise to God, therefore, all 5 times of the established prayers are covered in the Quran.
Which basically means that the established ritual of Fajr, Zuhr, Asr, Magrib and Isha has a foundation in the Quran.
And this is why the practice of 5 daily prayers is confirmed by the uniformity of this practice throughout the Muslim lands.Maybe you didn't know this, but "praise" and "salaat" are NOT the same thing. Just because praise is included in salaat observance doesn't mean the two are the same thing. We can praise G-d anytime, while salaat is to be observed at specific times... Like I said, the observance of SALAAT is only referenced at THREE TIMES in the Qur'aan, not five. Just because the majority of Islaamic nations adhere to this doesn't make it right. The majority of Muslims worldwide believe in circling the "Kaaba" seven times and kissing a black stone to worship G-d. This is something that ALL sectarian Muslims agree on, right? Does this make it part of our worship?
Peace,
Ahmad
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@ Ahmed Bilal
Ummm... Who said the Tanakh was written by Moses?! The Written and Oral Torah is the only book directly related to Moses' teachings. The other books were written by a series of Jewish prophets and scribes, many of who lived long after Moses was already dead... If you go anywhere in the world, the Written Torah and the Mishna are UNCHANGED after thousands of years. The people have the same text, the same letters, and everything else is completely identical. This is NOT the case with the hadith and sunna, which is completely different among different regions, different sects, and different Islaamic scholars. The Torah is NOT inaccurate, while the hadith and sunna writings ARE inaccurate.
Dude how can you say that the Torah is authentic!!??? You know how many times it contradicts the Quran?
There are so many stories in the Old Testament which show the prophets committing such unimaginable sins!!!
All of these stories are retold in the Quran with the errors removed. And worst of all is the image of God presented
in the Jewish scriptures, as wiping out entire races of people almost arbitrarily, accounts which have been corrected
in the Quran. Also, the tanakh was compiled and codified in a proccess that was similar to the New Testament, in
a gathering of priests who basically picked and chose which parts make up the Tanakh today. After its codification
it might have stayed the same (like you said) but the corruption had already occurred by that time.Maybe you didn't know this, but "praise" and "salaat" are NOT the same thing. Just because praise is included in salaat observance doesn't mean the two are the same thing. We can praise G-d anytime, while salaat is to be observed at specific times... Like I said, the observance of SALAAT is only referenced at THREE TIMES in the Qur'aan, not five. Just because the majority of Islaamic nations adhere to this doesn't make it right. The majority of Muslims worldwide believe in circling the "Kaaba" seven times and kissing a black stone to worship G-d. This is something that ALL sectarian Muslims agree on, right? Does this make it part of our worship?
I never said that Zuhr and Asr times were mentioned under the name "salat". But the description
of the act that is commanded during those times is covered by the act of Salat. We are told to
give praise to Allah during the times of Zuhr and Asr. And we do indeed give praise to God in our salat.PeAcE
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Peace c0de,
Dude how can you say that the Torah is authentic!!??? You know how many times it contradicts the Quran?
There are so many stories in the Old Testament which show the prophets committing such unimaginable sins!!!
All of these stories are retold in the Quran with the errors removed. And worst of all is the image of God presented
in the Jewish scriptures, as wiping out entire races of people almost arbitrarily, accounts which have been corrected
in the Quran.Please provide some scriptural proofs regarding this claim of the Torah being corrupted... In reality, the Qur'aan says that the Torah has NOT been corrupted, and it has been preserved, just like the Qur'aan. Please point out places where the Torah contradicts the Qur'aan...
Peace,
Ahmad
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Peace c0de,
Please provide some scriptural proofs regarding this claim of the Torah being corrupted... In reality, the Qur'aan says that the Torah has NOT been corrupted, and it has been preserved, just like the Qur'aan. Please point out places where the Torah contradicts the Qur'aan...
Peace,
Ahmad
Well quran does say the people distorted his words and attributed things that he never said, which things that they attributed to God which he never said is clearly in the torah. God didn't bash the torah/gospel that much since there was no need too, with the quran you can figure out what was change and what wasn't
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@ Ahmed
Salaam bro
Please provide some scriptural proofs regarding this claim of the Torah being corrupted...
Here is one example from the Quran, Verse 2102, clearly says that the the Tanakh contains fabrications
against Solomon PBUH. Referring to The Book of Kings in the Tanakh which claims that Hazrat Sulaiman PBUH
was guilty of idolatry.The Quran also redeems the character of many other prophets who have been falsely accused of grave sins in the Tanakh...
to tell you the truth bro, some of the stuff in the tanakh... is so bad, I don't even want to repeat here. -
Peace c0de,
Here is one example from the Quran, Verse 2102, clearly says that the the Tanakh contains fabrications
against Solomon PBUH. Referring to The Book of Kings in the Tanakh which claims that Hazrat Sulaiman PBUH
was guilty of idolatry.The Quran also redeems the character of many other prophets who have been falsely accused of grave sins in the Tanakh...
Okay... This doesn't prove the Torah or Tanakh is forged at all, since the Qur'aan never says that the claim of Solomon possibly turning towards idolatry in his later life is a lie. It never mentions this at all. So, if the Tanakh says it's true, while the Qur'aan doesn't mention it at all, then how can you be sure it's not true? The same is the case with the Tanakh's portrayal of King David, claiming that he committed adultery, something that's not mentioned at all in the Qur'aan. But again, just because the Qur'aan doesn't mention it doesn't mean it didn't happen. So, your argument on this means nothing...
to tell you the truth bro, some of the stuff in the tanakh... is so bad, I don't even want to repeat here.
Yeah, I didn't think so... ) I don't know of anything in the Tanakh that is so bad, it can't be mentioned in an open debate on scriptural authenticity. So, that comment is ridiculous...
Peace,
Ahmad
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Peace c0de,
Okay... This doesn't prove the Torah or Tanakh is forged at all, since the Qur'aan never says that the claim of Solomon possibly turning towards idolatry in his later life is a lie. It never mentions this at all.
Did you actually read the verse I gave you? Here it is again
(and keep in mind that this is not the only verse which clearly
places the charge of forgery against the Jews).And follow that which the devils falsely related against the kingdom of Solomon.
Solomon disbelieved not; but the devils disbelieved...The words "falsely related" are referring to the story in the Book of Kings,
i.e. saying the account that Solomon PBUH disbelieved is a fabrication.The same is the case with the Tanakh's portrayal of King David, claiming that he committed adultery, something that's not mentioned at all in the Qur'aan. But again, just because the Qur'aan doesn't mention it doesn't mean it didn't happen.
David PBUH has been mentioned with high regard in the Quran. So I am sorry
if I find the claim that he had a man murdered so he could marry his wife, ridiculous.I don't know of anything in the Tanakh that is so bad
Then you clearly don't know the Old Testament.
"Lot, Abraham?s nephew, begat two sons by his own daughters while in a drunken stupor (Genesis 1930-35)."
http//www.christiancourier.com/articles/950-does-the-bible-conflict-with-itself-in-the-matter-of-incestPeAcE
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Peace be unto you, brothers and sisters,
May God guide you to the Truth.
What the Quran says about the Torah and Gospel
Surah 291, 299, 32-4, 3184, 384, 4136, 566-68, 6154-155, 1037, 12111, 1856, 2848-49, 2946-47, 4215-16The Torah and the Scriptures have been corrupted. We know this for Truth because God tells us so. He warns us of the corruption and to use the Quran as a verifier and confirmation of the Truth within the Scriptures.
Would anyone who is a believer; a muslim with faith in their heart, dare to bear witness to the lies and slander of the mighty Prophets who came before?
Who would claim to believe Lot slept with his daughters, if it was not confirmed in the Quran?
Who would claim Noah got drunk and was discovered naked, if it was not confirmed in the Quran?
Who would claim Solomon fell into sorcerous practices, if it was not confirmed in the Quran?
Who would claim David slept with anyone or killed because of it, if it was not confirmed in the Quran?What Truth do you claim to believe in? The Quran or what is written in other Books that have been tarnished by carnal men who sold their soul to the deceiver?
We are told to read all God's Books, with the Quran as the verifier. The Quran abrogates previous Law, confirm and verifies Truth! Why would we fall prey to the deceiver's trap in believing this slander of our Prophets? God tells us to read the Torah and Scriptures for the Law, no? Our focus should be on serving God, not demeaning His Prophets.
Remember that the Jewish Council of Elders added to the Tanukh. What better way to reinforce the Rabbinical teachings of mysticism and kaballah than to demean the Prophets and usurp the worship of God to the jinn and iblis?
Read the Old and New Testament, just keep the Quran nearby to ascertain the Truth. If God does not speak of it, it did not occur. Or would you believe men before God?
If you read the Tanukh, are you searching for the Nebi'im? Then focus on the prophecies, ignore the porn and slander of Judaism.
Pray for guidance. God most assuredly provides.
Peace and blessings.
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Peace,
You're wrong on this issue. There is nowhere in the Qur'aan that claims that the Torah is corrupted. In fact, the exact opposite is implied throughout the scripture... The Qur'aan accuses the Jews and Christians of distorting the scriptures with their MOUTHS, and trading in G-d's revelations for manmade books. In other words, the Jews traded the Torah for the Gemarra (Talmud). They didn't corrupt the actual scriptures, they simply misinterpreted and mistranslated them. The Christians abandoned the Torah, and instead, they adhered to the teachings of Paul in the Bible canon, some of which completely contradicted the Torah, as well as the teachings of Jesus. This is why the Qur'aan continually encourages Jews to observe Torah and Christians (Nazarenes) to adhere to the Injeel. Why would He tell them to adhere to a corrupted book?
If you are truthful, then please point out a passage in the Qur'aan that alleges that the Torah has been corrupted... Or are you saying about G-d what you don't know?
Peace,
Ahmad
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Peace,
You're wrong on this issue. There is nowhere in the Qur'aan that claims that the Torah is corrupted. In fact, the exact opposite is implied throughout the scripture... The Qur'aan accuses the Jews and Christians of distorting the scriptures with their MOUTHS, and trading in G-d's revelations for manmade books. In other words, the Jews traded the Torah for the Gemarra (Talmud). They didn't corrupt the actual scriptures, they simply misinterpreted and mistranslated them. The Christians abandoned the Torah, and instead, they adhered to the teachings of Paul in the Bible canon, some of which completely contradicted the Torah, as well as the teachings of Jesus. This is why the Qur'aan continually encourages Jews to observe Torah and Christians (Nazarenes) to adhere to the Injeel. Why would He tell them to adhere to a corrupted book?
If you are truthful, then please point out a passage in the Qur'aan that alleges that the Torah has been corrupted... Or are you saying about G-d what you don't know?
Peace,
Ahmad
Ask yourself why God would tell the Christians and Jews to come to an accord to worship only God and follow the teachings of the Prophets.
Then ask yourself how Moses could write about the Promised Land when he was dead.
Peace. )
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Peace Raging Gaijin,
Ask yourself why God would tell the Christians and Jews to come to an accord to worship only God and follow the teachings of the Prophets.
Because the Jews strayed away from the Torah, and they traded it for the wisdom of rabbis. Even today, this is still a major problem in Judaism, especially in Orthodox Ashkenazi Judaism. In some instances, the Gemarra (Talmud) is followed in all circumstances, even if the Torah completely rejects the prescribed doctrine... The Christians strayed away from worshipping G-d alone, and they started idolizing Jesus and calling him the literal "son of G-d", a blasphemy in itself. Also, they completely rejected the guidance of the Torah, and instead, they traded G-d's scripture for the letters of Paul.
Then ask yourself how Moses could write about the Promised Land when he was dead.
In order to understand this, you have to understand that the Torah was not written by Moses; it was written by G-d Himself... When a scripture is divinely inspired, then G-d is the author of it, not the prophet. Therefore, G-d is the author of the Qur'aan, not Muhammad... G-d can write about things in every time period, because He is present and knowledgeable in all things at all times. Therefore, in the literal sense, G-d is fully capable of dictating the details of the "promised land" to Moses before he died, just like Muhammad mentioned things in the Qur'aan that didn't occur until after his death. In the prophetic writings, this is not unusual at all...
Still, I CHALLENGE anyone to provide a passage in the Qur'aan that alleges that the Torah is not preserved. If there exists one, I sure don't ever recall seeing it, and indeed, the Qur'aan says the exact opposite, saying that the Torah and Injeel are indeed preserved for the present and future generations to study and obey.
Peace,
Ahmad
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Peace Raging Gaijin,
Because the Jews strayed away from the Torah, and they traded it for the wisdom of rabbis. Even today, this is still a major problem in Judaism, especially in Orthodox Ashkenazi Judaism. In some instances, the Gemarra (Talmud) is followed in all circumstances, even if the Torah completely rejects the prescribed doctrine... The Christians strayed away from worshipping G-d alone, and they started idolizing Jesus and calling him the literal "son of G-d", a blasphemy in itself. Also, they completely rejected the guidance of the Torah, and instead, they traded G-d's scripture for the letters of Paul.
In order to understand this, you have to understand that the Torah was not written by Moses; it was written by G-d Himself... When a scripture is divinely inspired, then G-d is the author of it, not the prophet. Therefore, G-d is the author of the Qur'aan, not Muhammad... G-d can write about things in every time period, because He is present and knowledgeable in all things at all times. Therefore, in the literal sense, G-d is fully capable of dictating the details of the "promised land" to Moses before he died, just like Muhammad mentioned things in the Qur'aan that didn't occur until after his death. In the prophetic writings, this is not unusual at all...
Still, I CHALLENGE anyone to provide a passage in the Qur'aan that alleges that the Torah is not preserved. If there exists one, I sure don't ever recall seeing it, and indeed, the Qur'aan says the exact opposite, saying that the Torah and Injeel are indeed preserved for the present and future generations to study and obey.
Peace,
Ahmad
Peace, brother,
Good point about the 3rd person. I see the Truth in it, especially after reading specific Surahs concerning the Prophets.
Do not get me wrong We do need to read the Torah and Scriptures because they did come from God! They are His Books. Yet as I've shown below, all are in need of the Quran for verification. You can decide why. As for me, coming from the Christian faith, I have my opinion that will be very difficult to disuade; I have seen first-hand the corruption of God's good news given to His Prophets The Trinity Doctrine and the missing Gospel of Jesus.
Jesus never said he was God nor should he be worshipped. The Quran confirms this Truth and enabled me to discover the deception much easier than on my own. Moses is told to be given a Book as well, not just the 10 Commandments. Surah 2843
Deuteronomy contains the same food restrictions as the Quran; one proof that it comes from God to me.If it were uncorrupted, would it need the Quran to verify the Truth from falsehood? It doesn't just confirm, it verifies.
"He has revealed to thee the Book with truth, verifying that which is before it, and He revealed the Torah and Gospel. Aforetime, a guidance for the people, and He sent the Discrimination (Furqan). Those who disbelieve in the messages of Allah - for them is a severe chastisement. And Allah is Mighty, the Lord of retribution." Surah 33-4
"Again, We gave the Book to Moses to complete (Our blessings) on him who would do good, and making plain all things and a guidance and a mercy, so that they might believe in the meeting with their Lord." Surah 6154
"And this Quran is not such as could be forged by those besides Allah, but it is a verification of that which is before it and a clear explanation of the Book, there is not doubt in it, from the Lord of the worlds." Surah 1037
"In their histories there is certainly a lesson for men of understanding. It is not a narrative which could be forged, but a verification of what is before it, and a distinct explanation of all things, and a guide and a mercy to al people who believe." Surah 12111
"And We send not messengers but as givers of good news and warning, and those who disbelieve contend with falsehood to weaken thereby the Truth, and they take My messages and the warning for a mockery." Surah 1856
It's a terrible balance at times, weighing to share all I know or hold back so I do not scare off people when I share my experiences of Al-Islam. I have been quoting God's Word from the Quran and Scripture to a Doctor who I hold in high esteem; he is a Catholic but a man who loves God. We had great fellowship with our love of God, and he took many topics I brought to heart and incorporated them into his life. Because I speak English I say God more often than Allah.
He learned today I am a muslim and the quotes came from the Quran and Scriptures, and his demenour totally changed. Makes the heart heavy, yet I have faith in God to lead who He wills. He is a great man and I can see he loves God. Insha'Allah, this will open the door for further discussion.Or not.
This was a great study session. Thank you for the opportunity. )
Pray for guidance for answers to all your questions. God provides. D
Peace and blessings.
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Or are you saying about G-d what you don't know?
... again with this passive aggressiveness... nope
You're wrong on this issue. There is nowhere in the Qur'aan that claims that the Torah is corrupted.
Actually, it does. The Book of Kings says that Solomon PBUH disbelieved,
and referring to the same incident the Quran says that he did NOT disbelieve
but the incident was FORGED. This is clearly stated in the verse I gave you.And it is not talking about the Talmud either, but the Tanakh itself.
In fact, the exact opposite is implied throughout the scripture... The Qur'aan accuses the Jews and Christians of distorting the scriptures with their MOUTHS, and trading in G-d's revelations for manmade books. In other words, the Jews traded the Torah for the Gemarra (Talmud). They didn't corrupt the actual scriptures, they simply misinterpreted and mistranslated them. The Christians abandoned the Torah, and instead, they adhered to the teachings of Paul in the Bible canon, some of which completely contradicted the Torah, as well as the teachings of Jesus. This is why the Qur'aan continually encourages Jews to observe Torah and Christians (Nazarenes) to adhere to the Injeel. Why would He tell them to adhere to a corrupted book?
I see your point, but you are mistaken. The Old Testament is much more authentic
then the New Testament which isn't even recognized as a proper scripture in the Quran
as the diciples were not given revelation, only Jesus PBUH was given the injeel, as far
as I know (but I am not 100% sure on this).I also accept your point that the entire Torah was not revealed to Moses PBUH,
that was actually my mistake, and I knew that the Psalms and others were revealed
to other prophets within the Jewish community as well.However, this does not mean that the Torah has stayed perfectly preserved like the Quran.
The Quran is clear on the issue that the Torah does indeed contain fabrications, and examples
have already been posted.PeAcE
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Peace Raging Gaijin,
If it were uncorrupted, would it need the Quran to verify the Truth from falsehood? It doesn't just confirm, it verifies.
The Qur'aan says that it "musaddiqan limaa bayna yadayhe" (confirms the previous scriptures), which includes verifying and authenticating them. In order for this to be the case, the previous scriptures must be accurately preserved... Now, you've raised a very good question What's the purpose of the Qur'aan if the previous scriptures are uncorrupted?
In Christianity, the doctrines are based on manmade books and letters. None of these can accurately be called "divinely inspired", not by a long stretch. It's different, however, in Judaism. The Torah was actually authored by G-d Himself, and the knowledge and wisdom contained in the scripture is sound and reasonable... So, why the Qur'aan? Because Jewish teachings have changed, not the scriptures. Jews were condemned for trading G-d's scripture for a "cheap price", the wisdom of rabbis. That's why many of them, especially Orthodox Ashkenazi Jews, place the Gemarra (Talmud) above the Torah, which is considered the actual word of G-d Almighty! The purpose of the Qur'aan is to lead the people back to the true teachings of G-d, telling them to abandon their idols and worship G-d alone.
I do understand your perspective, and G-d is the most knowledgeable. May He guide us all to the truth and the straight path...
Peace and best wishes,
Ahmad